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DLE 35ra timing 46??

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Old 08-09-2016, 09:27 AM
  #1
slo642
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Default DLE 35ra timing 46??

The manual for this engine states timing at 46 degrees BDC and mine was timed that way from the factory. Has anyone played with the timing on this engine that seems way advanced to me?
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Old 08-09-2016, 10:19 AM
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Technical Writing is a highly developed skill... The manual is wrong.

The ignition was designed for a 28* advance at full throttle and ~ 1 to 4* at idle. C&H helped RcXel with the development of this ignition.

Go to C&H's web site for details on timing. While you are there buy something (like a tester for ignition setup or a new sensor).

Also the second sticky Rcexl sensor problems goes into detail about some DLE 35's that came with low quality sensors. You may want to read some of this.

Last edited by kmeyers; 08-09-2016 at 10:21 AM.
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Old 08-09-2016, 11:50 AM
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I read the sticky after posting thinking it wasn't about the 35 my mistake. On this engine the timing can range from 40 to just over 50 no way to get it down to 28 which makes sense to me. I found the CH hall sensors and ordered 2 will they be ok or should I also order the hall from RcXel
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Technical Writing is a highly developed skill... The manual is wrong.

The ignition was designed for a 28* advance at full throttle and ~ 1 to 4* at idle. C&H helped RcXel with the development of this ignition.

Go to C&H's web site for details on timing. While you are there buy something (like a tester for ignition setup or a new sensor).

Also the second sticky Rcexl sensor problems goes into detail about some DLE 35's that came with low quality sensors. You may want to read some of this.
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Old 08-09-2016, 11:58 AM
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I prefer the sensors from RC Extreme Power. They always work and are adjustable on two axis. Reasonable price too!
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Old 08-09-2016, 04:11 PM
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If price is really important then I make my own sensors from IC's bought through electronic supply houses. The IC's are really cheap.

My original C&H ignition for my BME 50 needed a sensor while C&H was in limbo a few years ago. So I just JB welded an IC to a scrape piece of alum and made my own. It helped me years later because it taught me the standard pin outs on the IC's.
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Old 08-10-2016, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slo642 View Post
I read the sticky after posting thinking it wasn't about the 35 my mistake. On this engine the timing can range from 40 to just over 50 no way to get it down to 28 which makes sense to me. I found the CH hall sensors and ordered 2 will they be ok or should I also order the hall from RcXel
Thanks
You are turning the crank backwards and reading the wrong side of the sensor. Turn the crank in the direction that the engine runs!
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:42 AM
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W8ye I am not turning the engine in the wrong direction. counter clock wise from the front. further more I called DLE on this and they insisted the 46 timing was correct as the manual states. I am also sure the engine will continue to run poorly if I don't the timing to a more realistic setting. I'm sure they are just trying to get away without fixing problem engines
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:39 AM
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They use RCexl ignitions so send them the link below and see what they say.

http://www.rcexl.com/news/conversion/5.html





Milton
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Old 08-10-2016, 12:57 PM
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The timing of the DLE engines is the location of the sensor. When the engine's running, the electronics in the ignition system fire the engine at the proper time. The sensor provides the reference for the electronics so the processor "knows" when to fire the spark.
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Old 08-10-2016, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bax View Post
The timing of the DLE engines is the location of the sensor. When the engine's running, the electronics in the ignition system fire the engine at the proper time. The sensor provides the reference for the electronics so the processor "knows" when to fire the spark.
Good information, So what should the static timing be set to.

Milton
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Old 08-10-2016, 05:51 PM
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Of course nothing is as it seems. The timing is calculated for low rpms and as read for high rpms at full advance. In between is also calculated.

So set the timing to full advance (28* Before TDC).

Maybe we should get BCCHI to chime in and set the record straight!
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Old 08-11-2016, 06:53 AM
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When we have a good ignition system, we set the sensor so that it's located per DLE's instructions. We've never had difficulties doing it this way.
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Old 08-11-2016, 07:13 AM
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I under stand what timing is and how it is accomplished on an engine.
on auto and most engines the timing is advanced as rpm increases.
but with many model engines the timing is fixed I cant say if there is a feature on the dle ignition system to advance the timing as rpm increases.
but timing of 28 or30 btdc is not timing for idle that would be more like 15 btdc.
So if static is set on the dle engine at an advanced state its unlikely the ignition goes to a retarded state as the rpm is increased with low rpm starting efforts.
so it is unlikely the dle ignition module uses more than a fixed timing for firing.
I am capable of telling what the engines timing was set at and that was 46 btdc and what (hobbico who answered the phone from a number I got from the dle website ) the dle rep said 46 was correct.
my only conclusion is 46 static cant be correct I can only speculate as why they would maintain that 46 btdc would be correct.
BAX if your with Futaba service you might be able to find out more on this I think Futaba US and Hobbico are different divisions of thesame company.

Last edited by slo642; 08-11-2016 at 07:49 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-11-2016, 08:01 AM
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Here is a quote from Antique a while back:

"Ignition systems 101...My carb rotator block is made from 3/8" epoxy board material...the carb is now closer to the cylinder...The throttle connection is at the end of the carb closest to the crank...The throttle servo connects directly to the new brass arm on the throttle shaft...It makes no difference which timing method is used, the connection remains the same...The mechanical advance has a 4/40 threaded rod link between the carb shaft and advance mechanism, a 6202 ball bearing on the back side of the prop hub...The hall sensor is mounted in a ring pressed on to the ball bearing...There is a magnet in the hub that triggers the advance when it passes the hall sensor...With mechanical advance the ring is rotated by opening the throttle..The spark timing is set for 28 degrees before top dead center for either method...The difference is that full advance is reached at 4000 rpm with electronic advance, and at Wide open throttle with mechanical advance..Contrary to popular opinion, I can find very little difference either way...I don't think the engine can tell the difference where the spark occurs after 4000 rpm, and very little if any before that..

To further complicate this, the electronic advance can be made to delay full advance until 6000 rpm..Again, no difference noticeable in performance..
The difference between my mechanical advance and the Brison pictured is the material on the Brison is Delrin or nylon with no ball bearing, and mine is aluminum with a 6202 sealed ball beaing..My hall sensor is epoxied into the aluminum, the C&H ignition setup on the Brison uses the exact same Sony DN6952 hall sensor in a removeable round piece held in by a setscrew...Since hall sensors rarely go bad I use epoxy...
The sensor on the DA is a small transformer using only 2 wires...The electronic advance on the DA works just like the electronic advance on all other engines...
The electronic advance chip on mine and C&H ignitions is the same part...
Static timing on mine and C&H electronic ignitions is set at 28 or 30 degrees BTDC...The first flip of the prop retards the ignition to 4 degrees BTDC, then follows the rpm of the crank.
Static timing on most other electronic advance ignitions is set at about 4 degrees BTDC and advances to 28 or 30 from there..
Hall sensor electronic ignitions with fire at 1 rpm, the other systems must be flipped a little faster for the transformer sensor to make enough voltage to fire the circuit....
Mechanical advance ignitions MUST be started with just a few clicks of throttle because the engine will kick back if the throttle is opened too far...Other systems always start retarded regardless of throttle position...
Spark timing can be changed on either system, by moving the sensor on the other systems or changing the length of the link on the mechanical...
Older engines with fixed EI can be changed to electronic advance by pluggin in a syncro spark module between the sensor and circuit board and locking the timing ring at 28 degrees BTDC..
Syncro spark modules are available from C&H...
Most engines with magneto and source coil ignition are set by the factory at 28 degrees BTDC....It can be changed by removing the mag rotor or flywheel and leaving the key out, then rotating the flywheel or rotor to whatever point is wanted..The key does nothin to keep the flywheel or rotor from slipping, it's only function it correctly place the rotor or flywheel on the shaft during assembly...The key on a tapered shaft crank is so soft it will shear if the retaining bolt comes loose....
Did I miss anything ?"

There used to be guys here with more experience having discussions all the time. Like I said these people worked with Rcxel. Rcxel reverse enginered US ignitions, because the US guys knew they would not be competitive they threw in.

Rcxel has tried some different advance matrix's. Start by reading the unit ID you have and research it's matrix. The voltage range is a clue to what generation the module is. 4.8 - 6. would be the early ones, to 8.4 the later ones.

I have one of the early #4 which are S$$T full advance at 2200. It was in a plane for a week before I replaced it!

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Old 08-11-2016, 08:16 AM
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It occurred to me in the sticky post some are using the termbad to describe the hall sensors that are firing late. I noticed someone linkedvideos showing different hall sensors firing at different magnet locations. these hall sensors aren'tbad just responding different to magnet location as they were designed but thatis out of the adjustment range of the DLE engine for proper timing.

If the hall sensors are being installed by physical pistonlocation and there physical location ( they assumed that all hall sensors tripat the same point in reference to the magnet and we know that is not the case)

this would explain engines shipped with other than desiredtiming. It does not explain why some one would think 46 btdc could be a correcttiming for this engine in this application.

Timing with hall sensors is always set using when the sensorreacts to the magnets location because of the slight variations in sensors. stillI cant see how the 46 btdc could remain in the printed manual
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Old 08-11-2016, 08:29 AM
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Here I have to throw out one more info bit.

The hall switch is normally open. The magnet closes the circuit and the ignition timing is based off the moment the circuit re-opens.
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Old 08-11-2016, 08:33 AM
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I don't dough rcexcel knows ignitions but this engine is timedat 46 btdc if they want it to run wide open at 28 to 30 and it retards by 4 first flip that would mean this one is
retarding to 42 first flip still way to advanced.

I agree you could set the timing at a static 28 to 30 fixed and wouldn't notice
much difference I have ran many rc gas engine back in the day when that was all we had.

there is a point when timing is so far out it affects engine performance 46 is way beyond that point it probably isn't far from detonation point and that is very harmful. if the timing was to far retarded say 8 or less the engine would struggle to gain rpm and wouldn't reach peak rpm
so the post you refer to isn't all inclusive on timing

Last edited by slo642; 08-11-2016 at 08:38 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 08-11-2016, 10:09 AM
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BCCHI has chimed in on this many times in various forums and always with the same answer. The standard 28 degrees answer plus or minus a bit.
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Old 08-11-2016, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmeyers View Post
Here I have to throw out one more info bit.

The hall switch is normally open. The magnet closes the circuit and the ignition timing is based off the moment the circuit re-opens.
You win the star for the day! Others will catch on soon and while I usually respect BAX's posts on the forums, when it comes to engine timing I pretty much think he is clueless. Seems they will never back off from those ridiculous 40+ degree settings. I doubt they actually electrically time the engines and probably just adjust the sensors by mechanical position.

There went my chances of ever having Hobby Services do warranty work on any of my DLE engines .... oh well.

There are many posts on the various forums how our ignitions work and written by industry leaders such as Bill Carpenter (CH), Adrian (New CH), Ralph Cunningham (RC Ignitions) and Milton at RC Extreme power just to mention a few. These people know their stuff and I trust them.
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Old 08-11-2016, 08:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Truckracer View Post
You win the star for the day! Others will catch on soon and while I usually respect BAX's posts on the forums, when it comes to engine timing I pretty much think he is clueless. Seems they will never back off from those ridiculous 40+ degree settings. I doubt they actually electrically time the engines and probably just adjust the sensors by mechanical position.

There went my chances of ever having Hobby Services do warranty work on any of my DLE engines .... oh well.

There are many posts on the various forums how our ignitions work and written by industry leaders such as Bill Carpenter (CH), Adrian (New CH), Ralph Cunningham (RC Ignitions) and Milton at RC Extreme power just to mention a few. These people know their stuff and I trust them.
Never saw such a bunch of BS. Nearly all incorrect,including Bax.Not going to get into this again I have tried several times and gave up.The timing should be 28 to 30 degrees BFTDC.Maybe 32 at high altitude like we are 5450 ASL......
Gone BCCHI Tired old CH guy.
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Old 08-12-2016, 11:37 AM
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I can only repeat what I have said....If a GOOD ignition system is installed, DLE engines will run very nicely with the sensor installed in the location specified in the instructions as written by DLE. We've test run a lot of DLE engines, and the above has proven to be true in all cases.

Please realize that the location of the sensor never changes, but the timing of the actual firing of the plug does change with RPM. This means that the sensor provides position and RPM information for the electronics to use to determine when to fire the plug. It does not mean that the plug fires when the magnet passes the sensor.

Also, please realize that the animated diagram shows a magneto ignition system and not an electronic one. The magneto systems needed to have the pickup located so that the plug would fire when the magnets went past the magneto's poles. No battery is needed because a magneto makes its own electrical pulse.
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:11 PM
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Well I guess it is your story so you can tell it anyway you want to.

Milton
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Old 08-12-2016, 12:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BadAzzMaxx View Post
Well I guess it is your story so you can tell it anyway you want to.

Milton
My thoughts exactly! I wouldn't know how to start to reply to the BAX comments above so I won't.
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Old 08-12-2016, 02:19 PM
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Seems there is someone that's never actually timed a ignition engine from scratch but just replaced sensors on the parting line of the crankcase as is done at the factory and has no actual idea what the timing actually is or how to measure it? That the engine usually runs when a new sensor is placed on the casting mold seam?
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Old 08-12-2016, 02:36 PM
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w8ye, that's my thoughts exactly. How can the information published by RCexl and others be discounted when they design and manufacture the equipment. Then to suggest it is info for a mag engine?! Incredible
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