Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
12-11-2003, 05:55 PM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
I have a fairly new G-45 with about an hour of running time on it. It is very difficult to start. I don't have an electric starter that can turn it over so I am hand cranking it. I choke it until it fires then open the choke. It fires every flip but kicks back on the next compression stroke. It fires almost everytime but I can not get it to go through a second compression stroke because I can feel the wind on my hand from the prop reversing on the second compression stroke. I have tried varying amount of throttle position but I am averaging about an hour of flipping per single crank. Something is not right...
It is completely stock with the easy carb adapter and a B&B muffler. Zinger 20x10 prop with aluminum spinner. When we put a 24v starter on it at the field it start immediately every time. I've considered a spring start but don't like the idea of adding weight and the $60 price. Plus H9 is out of stock. I don't really want to upgrade to a 24v starting system since that is a lot to carry and defeats the simplicity of gas.
Thanks in advance for help...
It is completely stock with the easy carb adapter and a B&B muffler. Zinger 20x10 prop with aluminum spinner. When we put a 24v starter on it at the field it start immediately every time. I've considered a spring start but don't like the idea of adding weight and the $60 price. Plus H9 is out of stock. I don't really want to upgrade to a 24v starting system since that is a lot to carry and defeats the simplicity of gas.
Thanks in advance for help...
12-11-2003, 06:10 PM
#2
My Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: San Tan Valley,
AZ
Posts: 5,768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
I have a spring starter I will sell for $25. It was used for awhile on my G-45 and removed when I went to electronic ignition. It will solve your problem
12-11-2003, 09:21 PM
#3
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Riverton,
WY
Posts: 3,114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
Several choices
Grow a bigger arm
-- CH Jump start 2oz, $60-- CH full ignition 0oz $125-- spring starter 6oz ,$60.
Its only going to get worse an the rings seat, this will raise the compression and make even a slower flip.
Grow a bigger arm
-- CH Jump start 2oz, $60-- CH full ignition 0oz $125-- spring starter 6oz ,$60.Its only going to get worse an the rings seat, this will raise the compression and make even a slower flip.
12-11-2003, 09:44 PM
#4
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Somewhere,
DC
Posts: 9,825
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
ORIGINAL: tkg
Several choices
Grow a bigger arm-- CH Jump start 2oz, $60-- CH full ignition 0oz $125-- spring starter 6oz ,$60.
Its only going to get worse an the rings seat, this will raise the compression and make even a slower flip.
Several choices
Grow a bigger arm
-- CH Jump start 2oz, $60-- CH full ignition 0oz $125-- spring starter 6oz ,$60.Its only going to get worse an the rings seat, this will raise the compression and make even a slower flip.
12-11-2003, 11:03 PM
#5
My Feedback: (10)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Puryear, TN
Posts: 2,712
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
Try setting your prop at 1 o'clock when the compression starts. With switch off, choke on, throttle at 1/2 or so, block the opening of the carb with your finger, and pull the prop through until fuel is dripping out of carb. Turn switch on, open throttle just a click or two, choke 3/4 closed. Now back the prop up to 5 o'clock and with 2 finger(with clove on) close to the spinner, flip your wrist in an upside down "J" motion all the way through compression and down to 7 o'clock. This will get the magnets spinning fast enough to create a spark. Engine should fire and run. Open choke and you're ready. Once you get this procedure down, after primed, you can leave the choke open and not use it. All Zenoah's like to be very wet to get them to start. Hope this helps. Once I learned this procedure, I sold my Sullivan Megatron starter.
12-12-2003, 12:56 AM
#6
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Riverton,
WY
Posts: 3,114
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
"If your ignition weighs what you say it does, send me a few" RCIGN1
RCI, ITS magic. Well sorta. You remove the HEAVY flywheel plus the HEAVY mag coil, then install our light weight ignition system PLUS a battery and the planes weight change is 0oz.
RCI, ITS magic. Well sorta. You remove the HEAVY flywheel plus the HEAVY mag coil, then install our light weight ignition system PLUS a battery and the planes weight change is 0oz.
12-12-2003, 11:19 AM
#8
My Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: San Tan Valley,
AZ
Posts: 5,768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
ORIGINAL: yl5295
Dirtybird,
I emailed you but your spam filter blocks my email...
Dirtybird,
I emailed you but your spam filter blocks my email...
12-12-2003, 04:04 PM
#10
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
yl5295,
If you have a large cordless drill(around 18V) you can get a starter cup from a megatron and run the drill on Hi and it will turn fast enough to start the G45. I use a craftsman 18V on my Fuji50, works every time.
If you have a large cordless drill(around 18V) you can get a starter cup from a megatron and run the drill on Hi and it will turn fast enough to start the G45. I use a craftsman 18V on my Fuji50, works every time.
12-12-2003, 10:25 PM
#11
My Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: San Tan Valley,
AZ
Posts: 5,768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
The starter fits a cup mount if you have one. If not you will need to cut a hole in the firewall for it.
I do not have paypal I will take your check. If you will let me know that you have sent it I will send the starter to you.
Richard H. Kelly
I do not have paypal I will take your check. If you will let me know that you have sent it I will send the starter to you.
Richard H. Kelly
12-14-2003, 12:54 PM
#12
Senior Member
My Feedback: (16)
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Locust Grove,
GA
Posts: 12,942
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
I had this problem until I got a B&B spring starter. I don't care what anyone says, get the carb wet and your engine will start on the first or second flip. It is a great device.
12-14-2003, 03:43 PM
#13
My Feedback: (2)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: jefferson,
WI
Posts: 32
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
Also had the same problem with the 45 as well as the g-62,spring starter solves the problem and if choked till fuel is dripping, or finger wet, it will start almost always on the first time.worked for me. D.
12-15-2003, 10:03 AM
#14
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Crawfordsville,
IN
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
Please dont get a spring starter they are the most dangerous things in rc modelling............I have SEEN several guys with tore up hands because of them.
Every Zenoah I have ever seen will hand start very easily if you have the right technique.
First thing make sure the coil pickup is as close as possible to the shaft. If it is not adjusted properly it has to turn very fast before the ignition produces a good spark................adjust it as close as you can get without any rubbing.
Second.........you have to have the prop in the right place on the hub before you can hand start................look at the rear of the prop driver where the ignition pickup is , you will see three magnets embedded in the metal............when you prop the engine to make a good start ALL of those magnets should move at speed under the coil............if they do not loosen the prop bolt and adjust the prop so they do.............it will usually look like this...........
set the prop so that the onset of compression is at 11 o'clock rather than 12 or 1 or 2
when propping move the prop back to 2 or 3 o'clock and swing from there......this should allow all the magnets to pass under the coil generating a healthy spark!
Good tip...........................learn to swing this WITHOUT the plug lead attached so you get comfortable before trying to start the engine............DO NOT be tentative........a good hard positive swing.
Back in the uk there were very few guys fussing with any kind of starter.........just more crap to lug to the flying field!!!!
Also Zenoahs will only ever kick back if they are dry.............keep it choked til it fires
WEAR A GLOVE...........the design is such that the single bolt hub will loosen if the engine kicks back........it can still give you a fright more than anything and wearing a glove will give you more confidence !!
Kindest regards IanB
Every Zenoah I have ever seen will hand start very easily if you have the right technique.
First thing make sure the coil pickup is as close as possible to the shaft. If it is not adjusted properly it has to turn very fast before the ignition produces a good spark................adjust it as close as you can get without any rubbing.
Second.........you have to have the prop in the right place on the hub before you can hand start................look at the rear of the prop driver where the ignition pickup is , you will see three magnets embedded in the metal............when you prop the engine to make a good start ALL of those magnets should move at speed under the coil............if they do not loosen the prop bolt and adjust the prop so they do.............it will usually look like this...........
set the prop so that the onset of compression is at 11 o'clock rather than 12 or 1 or 2
when propping move the prop back to 2 or 3 o'clock and swing from there......this should allow all the magnets to pass under the coil generating a healthy spark!
Good tip...........................learn to swing this WITHOUT the plug lead attached so you get comfortable before trying to start the engine............DO NOT be tentative........a good hard positive swing.
Back in the uk there were very few guys fussing with any kind of starter.........just more crap to lug to the flying field!!!!
Also Zenoahs will only ever kick back if they are dry.............keep it choked til it fires
WEAR A GLOVE...........the design is such that the single bolt hub will loosen if the engine kicks back........it can still give you a fright more than anything and wearing a glove will give you more confidence !!
Kindest regards IanB
12-15-2003, 11:09 AM
#15
My Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: San Tan Valley,
AZ
Posts: 5,768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
ORIGINAL: IanB
Please dont get a spring starter they are the most dangerous things in rc modelling............I have SEEN several guys with tore up hands because of them.
Every Zenoah I have ever seen will hand start very easily if you have the right technique.
First thing make sure the coil pickup is as close as possible to the shaft. If it is not adjusted properly it has to turn very fast before the ignition produces a good spark................adjust it as close as you can get without any rubbing.
Second.........you have to have the prop in the right place on the hub before you can hand start................look at the rear of the prop driver where the ignition pickup is , you will see three magnets embedded in the metal............when you prop the engine to make a good start ALL of those magnets should move at speed under the coil............if they do not loosen the prop bolt and adjust the prop so they do.............it will usually look like this...........
set the prop so that the onset of compression is at 11 o'clock rather than 12 or 1 or 2
when propping move the prop back to 2 or 3 o'clock and swing from there......this should allow all the magnets to pass under the coil generating a healthy spark!
Good tip...........................learn to swing this WITHOUT the plug lead attached so you get comfortable before trying to start the engine............DO NOT be tentative........a good hard positive swing.
Back in the uk there were very few guys fussing with any kind of starter.........just more crap to lug to the flying field!!!!
Also Zenoahs will only ever kick back if they are dry.............keep it choked til it fires
WEAR A GLOVE...........the design is such that the single bolt hub will loosen if the engine kicks back........it can still give you a fright more than anything and wearing a glove will give you more confidence !!
Kindest regards IanB
Please dont get a spring starter they are the most dangerous things in rc modelling............I have SEEN several guys with tore up hands because of them.
Every Zenoah I have ever seen will hand start very easily if you have the right technique.
First thing make sure the coil pickup is as close as possible to the shaft. If it is not adjusted properly it has to turn very fast before the ignition produces a good spark................adjust it as close as you can get without any rubbing.
Second.........you have to have the prop in the right place on the hub before you can hand start................look at the rear of the prop driver where the ignition pickup is , you will see three magnets embedded in the metal............when you prop the engine to make a good start ALL of those magnets should move at speed under the coil............if they do not loosen the prop bolt and adjust the prop so they do.............it will usually look like this...........
set the prop so that the onset of compression is at 11 o'clock rather than 12 or 1 or 2
when propping move the prop back to 2 or 3 o'clock and swing from there......this should allow all the magnets to pass under the coil generating a healthy spark!
Good tip...........................learn to swing this WITHOUT the plug lead attached so you get comfortable before trying to start the engine............DO NOT be tentative........a good hard positive swing.
Back in the uk there were very few guys fussing with any kind of starter.........just more crap to lug to the flying field!!!!
Also Zenoahs will only ever kick back if they are dry.............keep it choked til it fires
WEAR A GLOVE...........the design is such that the single bolt hub will loosen if the engine kicks back........it can still give you a fright more than anything and wearing a glove will give you more confidence !!
Kindest regards IanB
A Zenoah can be hand started but the spring makes it easier. That small fly wheel means the process is more critical. A spring kicks the motor over faster. But you must get your hand out of the way! BTW you must do this even if you are hand starting.
12-15-2003, 11:31 AM
#16
Senior Member
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Raleigh, NC
Posts: 551
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
Dirtybird,
Still trying to get an email to you or from you... need your address and/or a phone #
Still trying to get an email to you or from you... need your address and/or a phone #
12-15-2003, 05:49 PM
#18
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: manchester, AE, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 1,795
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
hope this goes to the right place right guys, this is how we do it in the uk. first an explanation, once at a show, i was about to buy an easy start system, trader said,WHY IN HELL DO YOU WANT THIS i replied, because i cant start the *****thing, come on says he, let me show you, right off with cowl(33%extra 300) right here it is, and this guy knows his stuff, undo the 2 bolts holding the coil pickup, insert an ordinary piece of note paper, holding the paper in place, advance the magnets, CLANG they have trapped the paper, tighten up the 2 screws again, now the prop, bring the engine round to compression, just so you can feel it, then tighten up the prop, making sure the propIS VERTICAL now, to recap, minimum gap,--just feeling a WHISKER of compression, prop at vertical THIS IS THE IMPORTANT BIT!!! FLICKING THE THING!! and this is how you practise--- make a slapping motion in front of you, just like slapping someone across the face, hit, and follow through, now then, apply this to the vetical prop, put the choke on, dont hit the propSLAP IT SLAP IT AS IF YOU HATE IT, 3-5 flicks, it will fire, after it has fired, give it one more, then release the choke, slap it again, immediatly, after 3-4 flicks, it will go, its just a technique and if you think it does not work, when i learned this, my son started his z62 in the extra, and he was 11 years old at the time for you guys with a large radial cowl, tony clark, of practical scale in germany does a booster, called an easy start system this gives MEGA boost to the coil, a real aid to starting, but i dont know if you guys can get them over there, hope this helps, take care, ALANC manchester, united kingdom
12-16-2003, 09:04 AM
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Bristol, UNITED KINGDOM
Posts: 353
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
hmmm,
slapping technique works - but even with the choke on, my zg45 will still occasionally backfire which is unpleasant and occasionally painfull.
an alternative technique to slapping with the choke on:
full throttle, choke on, firm grip (no flicking or slapping) on the prop rapidly turn the engine over 6 to 9 times, then
just above idle, choke on, firm grip on the prop rapidly turn the engine over another 5 times, then
just above idle, choke off, firm grip on the prop rapidly turn the engine over another 5 times, then
use slapping method as above to start the engine. It will usually start within 2 or 3 slaps with no danger of backfiring.
works for me (thanks to Richard Gale for sharing thistechnique with me)
Chris
slapping technique works - but even with the choke on, my zg45 will still occasionally backfire which is unpleasant and occasionally painfull.
an alternative technique to slapping with the choke on:
full throttle, choke on, firm grip (no flicking or slapping) on the prop rapidly turn the engine over 6 to 9 times, then
just above idle, choke on, firm grip on the prop rapidly turn the engine over another 5 times, then
just above idle, choke off, firm grip on the prop rapidly turn the engine over another 5 times, then
use slapping method as above to start the engine. It will usually start within 2 or 3 slaps with no danger of backfiring.
works for me (thanks to Richard Gale for sharing thistechnique with me)
Chris
12-16-2003, 09:40 AM
#20
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Northfield Center, OH
Posts: 2,205
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
I agree with IanB. The only time I have ever smacked my hand with a gas engine is with one that has a spring starter (US 35). When you flip start your hand naturally moves well out of the way.
I have 4 Zenoahs and they all hand start. I think the secret is two things: Prop position in relation to compression, about 12 o'clock seems work for me, and having a strong "follow-through" (like in golfing) when you flip the prop.
Jim
I have 4 Zenoahs and they all hand start. I think the secret is two things: Prop position in relation to compression, about 12 o'clock seems work for me, and having a strong "follow-through" (like in golfing) when you flip the prop.
Jim
12-16-2003, 09:47 AM
#21
My Feedback: (1)
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Crawfordsville,
IN
Posts: 165
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
Maybe I have never seen anyone use a spring starter correctly but I will tell you this,
I do not like the fact that with the spring installed is much harder to feel the prime condition of the engine. You cannot feel the prop bounce as it catches the spring.
I do not like having to tranfer the prop from hand to hand to fully wind it ( both hands in the prop arc with tension on the prop!!)
I do not like the forces a spring starter applies to the model or rather you apply as you try to hold the thing on the ground while you wind the spring up.
I do not like the extra weight
I do not like the FACT that I have seen a spring SLOWLY rotate an engine through compression then almost take the poor guys hand off as he reached for the prop just when it passed tdc
I do not like the look of fear I have seen so many times on peoples faces trying to use the ------ things!!!
Kindest regards IanB
But hey if it works for you ...........why not
Just my 02c
I do not like the fact that with the spring installed is much harder to feel the prime condition of the engine. You cannot feel the prop bounce as it catches the spring.
I do not like having to tranfer the prop from hand to hand to fully wind it ( both hands in the prop arc with tension on the prop!!)
I do not like the forces a spring starter applies to the model or rather you apply as you try to hold the thing on the ground while you wind the spring up.
I do not like the extra weight
I do not like the FACT that I have seen a spring SLOWLY rotate an engine through compression then almost take the poor guys hand off as he reached for the prop just when it passed tdc
I do not like the look of fear I have seen so many times on peoples faces trying to use the ------ things!!!
Kindest regards IanB
But hey if it works for you ...........why not
Just my 02c
12-16-2003, 11:43 AM
#22
My Feedback: (5)
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: San Tan Valley,
AZ
Posts: 5,768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
ORIGINAL: IanB
Maybe I have never seen anyone use a spring starter correctly but I will tell you this, (* Drop by and I will show you how to use it correctly *)
I do not like the fact that with the spring installed is much harder to feel the prime condition of the engine. You cannot feel the prop bounce as it catches the spring. (* It sounds to me like your spring needs maintenence*)
I do not like having to tranfer the prop from hand to hand to fully wind it ( both hands in the prop arc with tension on the prop!!) (* Drop by and I will show you how to use it correctly*)
I do not like the forces a spring starter applies to the model or rather you apply as you try to hold the thing on the ground while you wind the spring up. (* Drop by and I will show you how to use it correctly*)
I do not like the extra weight (*6 oz on an 80" airplane?*)
I do not like the FACT that I have seen a spring SLOWLY rotate an engine through compression then almost take the poor guys hand off as he reached for the prop just when it passed tdc (* Drop by and I will show you how to use it correctly*)
I do not like the look of fear I have seen so many times on peoples faces trying to use the ------ things!!! (* Drop by and I will show you how to use it correctly*)
Kindest regards IanB
But hey if it works for you ...........why not
Just my 02c
Maybe I have never seen anyone use a spring starter correctly but I will tell you this, (* Drop by and I will show you how to use it correctly *)
I do not like the fact that with the spring installed is much harder to feel the prime condition of the engine. You cannot feel the prop bounce as it catches the spring. (* It sounds to me like your spring needs maintenence*)
I do not like having to tranfer the prop from hand to hand to fully wind it ( both hands in the prop arc with tension on the prop!!) (* Drop by and I will show you how to use it correctly*)
I do not like the forces a spring starter applies to the model or rather you apply as you try to hold the thing on the ground while you wind the spring up. (* Drop by and I will show you how to use it correctly*)
I do not like the extra weight (*6 oz on an 80" airplane?*)
I do not like the FACT that I have seen a spring SLOWLY rotate an engine through compression then almost take the poor guys hand off as he reached for the prop just when it passed tdc (* Drop by and I will show you how to use it correctly*)
I do not like the look of fear I have seen so many times on peoples faces trying to use the ------ things!!! (* Drop by and I will show you how to use it correctly*)
Kindest regards IanB
But hey if it works for you ...........why not
Just my 02c
12-16-2003, 01:25 PM
#23
Senior Member
My Feedback: (4)
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Somewhere,
DC
Posts: 9,825
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
Grab the plane with one hand, grab the tip of the prop with the other, wind it about 3/4 turn CW, pull your hand out of the way...couldn't be easier [8D]
12-16-2003, 02:11 PM
#25
My Feedback: (102)
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Colonial Beach, VA
Posts: 20,370
Likes: 0
Received 25 Likes
on
25 Posts
RE: Hard starting zenoah G45 - need advise
I use a Hobbico 180 with a Miller 4 to 1 reduction to start my G45 and Mustang 50. The Hobbico 180 would not start my Saito 150 so I got a Dynatron for that. One thing no one mentioned is what happens when the rollers in the spring starter get dry and it gets hot and locks up, if your lucky it will only break the spring.