80 cc Twin DOHC
10-27-2004, 09:52 AM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
Yes Dick that is it, side-by-side twin, low, compact and fast.
I had a YAMAHA dirt bike at the same time. DT1 Single cyl 250.
Looks NOTHING like the dirt bikes of today.
Ron
I had a YAMAHA dirt bike at the same time. DT1 Single cyl 250.
Looks NOTHING like the dirt bikes of today.
Ron
10-27-2004, 02:31 PM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
Guys! Guys!, -
Please don't get me started on bikes! - I'd never be able to stop typing! - you'll get the thread shut down!
It's not so long ago that someone actually complained when the engine topic went on to go kart and lawnmower engines, ( narrow minded and short sighted in my opinion), but I guess that's just the way it is.
.
Must say, I'm glad to see that much of our interest in engines came from bikes and cars etc. ( more than I thought) and this should also fit in well with aircraft, - they have got a lot in common, and as there is a lot of good info available for our use in these areas which we can adapt to RC aircraft, why try to completely segregate them? - some people no doubt will though!
Please don't get me started on bikes! - I'd never be able to stop typing! - you'll get the thread shut down!
It's not so long ago that someone actually complained when the engine topic went on to go kart and lawnmower engines, ( narrow minded and short sighted in my opinion), but I guess that's just the way it is.
.Must say, I'm glad to see that much of our interest in engines came from bikes and cars etc. ( more than I thought) and this should also fit in well with aircraft, - they have got a lot in common, and as there is a lot of good info available for our use in these areas which we can adapt to RC aircraft, why try to completely segregate them? - some people no doubt will though!
10-27-2004, 03:07 PM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
Brian,
The point that I am trying to make is that four stroke technology has taken a great leap, with the design features that Daniel pointed out, and you can make them perform at whatever revs and power levels you choose, by careful cam design, valve size. exhaust dimensions etc. etc. - same with two strokes, with port heights, expansion chambers etc.
You may have a better knowledge of manufacturing, marketing techniques and profit margins etc., but give the practical engineers a chance, after all, it is only through their vision, dreams, and hard work that the marketing guys have any products to market! - Work with them, help if you can, but let them try!
Ron,
I remember the RD350, it was a great machine, and all the would be champions learnt their trade on it.
But before that, (circa 1967), I raced a Suzuki T20, ( 250cc six speed) this was the first of the real fast Japanese road bikes, and it used to blow the big British twins into the weeds on the short street circuits which were popular down here at that time.
Power, although good, was very peaky, and when the revs dropped, you had to chop down a couple of gears to get it going again.
Two strokes have come a long way since then, and are much more "torquey".
Sorry moderators, we'll try to get back on track.
The point that I am trying to make is that four stroke technology has taken a great leap, with the design features that Daniel pointed out, and you can make them perform at whatever revs and power levels you choose, by careful cam design, valve size. exhaust dimensions etc. etc. - same with two strokes, with port heights, expansion chambers etc.
You may have a better knowledge of manufacturing, marketing techniques and profit margins etc., but give the practical engineers a chance, after all, it is only through their vision, dreams, and hard work that the marketing guys have any products to market! - Work with them, help if you can, but let them try!
Ron,
I remember the RD350, it was a great machine, and all the would be champions learnt their trade on it.
But before that, (circa 1967), I raced a Suzuki T20, ( 250cc six speed) this was the first of the real fast Japanese road bikes, and it used to blow the big British twins into the weeds on the short street circuits which were popular down here at that time.
Power, although good, was very peaky, and when the revs dropped, you had to chop down a couple of gears to get it going again.
Two strokes have come a long way since then, and are much more "torquey".
Sorry moderators, we'll try to get back on track.
10-27-2004, 07:57 PM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
Just one more answer moderators?
I think the T10 was a dog, and the T20 ( the X6 I think may have been the American model of the T20, - not totally sure, --- Hustler?) - Remember Ron Grant used to ride a much modified version in the US?
It's handling was certainly dog like, and the front forks used to bend which made the front end chatter when you braked hard, but I used to get over that with bravado, I just let it twitch!( ie until it dumped me).
What's this got to do with aircraft? - well I used to ride my T20 to the airfield for flying lessons, ( which I discontinued because I couldn't afford flying lessons as well as racing bikes!)
- I was able to take off and land unaided before I quit though.
I remember riding to the airfield thinking life couldn't get any better than this, - my two passions all in one!
- Now I can't do either, but this model stuff promises to keep me happy until I can't get around anymore.
I think the T10 was a dog, and the T20 ( the X6 I think may have been the American model of the T20, - not totally sure, --- Hustler?) - Remember Ron Grant used to ride a much modified version in the US?
It's handling was certainly dog like, and the front forks used to bend which made the front end chatter when you braked hard, but I used to get over that with bravado, I just let it twitch!( ie until it dumped me)
.What's this got to do with aircraft? - well I used to ride my T20 to the airfield for flying lessons, ( which I discontinued because I couldn't afford flying lessons as well as racing bikes!)
- I was able to take off and land unaided before I quit though.
I remember riding to the airfield thinking life couldn't get any better than this, - my two passions all in one!
- Now I can't do either, but this model stuff promises to keep me happy until I can't get around anymore.
10-28-2004, 07:00 PM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
Dan, I must say I'm very impressed with the twin.
I brought up the relationship between 4-stroke dirt bikes and aircraft about a year ago and many people had a harsh response. I too think they are short sighted. Look at the Yamaha YZ250F and YZ450F (and now Honda's twins). Their engines borrow technology from the R1 which borrows technology from formula one and Indy. They have made their 4-stroke dirt bikes on par and arguably better than the 2-strokes. They are nearly the same weight, more hp, more torque, better economy, cleaner, easier to ride, etc. If anyone wants to argue that point, ask them if they own or have ridden one. Chances are they haven't.
If we could take that technology and design our aircraft engines with it, such as Dan has, then they would be awesome. Maybe not 5 valves per cylinder and 13,500 rpm redline.
I started a thread looking for feedback and interest in a 50cc single that was crankcase supercharged and had electronic valves. Many good ideas came out of it but there were the usual nay-sayers. In the meantime I read a complete book on sandcasting and have met a couple people here that cast alum. and want to cast the cases/cyl. I'm about done with another book on machining. This winter I'd like to start on this project using what I know about motorcycle engines as a start. Dan's BEAUTIFUL engine has given me more inspiration.
If people listened to the ones who say it can't be done, we would still be living in caves trying to kill dinner with rocks and sticks.
Doug
I brought up the relationship between 4-stroke dirt bikes and aircraft about a year ago and many people had a harsh response. I too think they are short sighted. Look at the Yamaha YZ250F and YZ450F (and now Honda's twins). Their engines borrow technology from the R1 which borrows technology from formula one and Indy. They have made their 4-stroke dirt bikes on par and arguably better than the 2-strokes. They are nearly the same weight, more hp, more torque, better economy, cleaner, easier to ride, etc. If anyone wants to argue that point, ask them if they own or have ridden one. Chances are they haven't.
If we could take that technology and design our aircraft engines with it, such as Dan has, then they would be awesome. Maybe not 5 valves per cylinder and 13,500 rpm redline.
I started a thread looking for feedback and interest in a 50cc single that was crankcase supercharged and had electronic valves. Many good ideas came out of it but there were the usual nay-sayers. In the meantime I read a complete book on sandcasting and have met a couple people here that cast alum. and want to cast the cases/cyl. I'm about done with another book on machining. This winter I'd like to start on this project using what I know about motorcycle engines as a start. Dan's BEAUTIFUL engine has given me more inspiration.
If people listened to the ones who say it can't be done, we would still be living in caves trying to kill dinner with rocks and sticks.
Doug
10-28-2004, 09:08 PM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
Good on you Doug! ( hope I wasn't one of the "naysayers"!). - I think anything can be done with hard work and dedication ( lots and lots of it ).
Good luck, and I hope you're as successful as Dan!
- Farm out any work you get bogged down in.
Good luck, and I hope you're as successful as Dan!
- Farm out any work you get bogged down in.
11-06-2004, 09:43 PM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
ORIGINAL: Skypilot_one
Does the posted DOHC 80cc engine have a spark ignition? If not it is a GLOW engine and this thread should be moved to that forum.
Does the posted DOHC 80cc engine have a spark ignition? If not it is a GLOW engine and this thread should be moved to that forum.
I'm sure it was posted here, because it has alot of interest among 100-150cc gas engine pilots, and they are also the people who are most likely to invest in this kind of master piece, if a batch were to be produced.
DKjens
11-07-2004, 09:22 AM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
Why not a purpose built 4 stroke engine that runs the prop drive off the camshaft. Drop that 16000 rpm hp down to a reasonable 8000 for a more efficient prop rpm? Like a built in reduction drive. It's done on some industrial 4 strokes.
11-07-2004, 10:13 AM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
Flypaper 2,
That would make sense but this is a overhead cam design so you can't do it. However on a Saito style four stroke single or a standard type pushrod twin, a cam driven prop is an excellent idea. I don't think there would be a large weight penalty, just a shift in material placement. You would need a stronger gear and bearings on the cam. I wonder if you could use a lighter, hollow crankshaft? Something to look into. Scale, efficient props spinning at lower, quieter speeds pulling like crazy. I like it!
Make a V-2 with the cam driving the prop. That would be the ultimate Mustang or Spitfire engine!
DKjens,
Are you or any of your giant scale friends really going to run a glow engine in a 35% plane running methanol, 15% nitro and 20% lube or run a 20X20 prop on your 35% 3-D or Imac plane??
I thought most went to gas to get away from the mess and cost of glow fuel mix.
That would make sense but this is a overhead cam design so you can't do it. However on a Saito style four stroke single or a standard type pushrod twin, a cam driven prop is an excellent idea. I don't think there would be a large weight penalty, just a shift in material placement. You would need a stronger gear and bearings on the cam. I wonder if you could use a lighter, hollow crankshaft? Something to look into. Scale, efficient props spinning at lower, quieter speeds pulling like crazy. I like it!
Make a V-2 with the cam driving the prop. That would be the ultimate Mustang or Spitfire engine!
DKjens,
Are you or any of your giant scale friends really going to run a glow engine in a 35% plane running methanol, 15% nitro and 20% lube or run a 20X20 prop on your 35% 3-D or Imac plane??
I thought most went to gas to get away from the mess and cost of glow fuel mix.
11-07-2004, 10:50 AM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
ORIGINAL: Skypilot_one
>Are you or any of your giant scale friends really going to run a glow engine in a 35% plane running >methanol, 15% nitro and 20% lube or run a 20X20 prop on your 35% 3-D or Imac plane??
Maybe, maybe not. The point is it sure is good to see what else is potentially out there, and I can't think of a better place than right here to find out about it. For now anyway.
>I thought most went to gas to get away from the mess and cost of glow fuel mix.
It looks to me like this engine is a likely candidate to convert to gas. But we won't know if it can't be discussed here in front of the potential users.
Ron
>Are you or any of your giant scale friends really going to run a glow engine in a 35% plane running >methanol, 15% nitro and 20% lube or run a 20X20 prop on your 35% 3-D or Imac plane??
Maybe, maybe not. The point is it sure is good to see what else is potentially out there, and I can't think of a better place than right here to find out about it. For now anyway.
>I thought most went to gas to get away from the mess and cost of glow fuel mix.
It looks to me like this engine is a likely candidate to convert to gas. But we won't know if it can't be discussed here in front of the potential users.
Ron
11-07-2004, 01:21 PM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
Can't stand it, gotta come back [8D]
Ya just gotta sit back and laugh [8D]
I post a picture of the newest, most beautiful engine I ever saw (and ran) on a GAS engine forum and just because it currently is running on GLOW fuel someone gets offended and wants(and gets) it moved to the GLOW engine forum...
The engine was designed and built to be a racing engine, and as such makes more power than the GLOW engines we're running now...It could just as easily run on GAS, all it takes is a Rimfire spark plug and an ignition system..Maybe we could screw some Rimfires in it, then it would be a GAS engine and therefore be eligible for discussion in this elite GAS engine forum..
The designer could just as easily grind the cams to put the torque in the range where it could be used in IMAC and run on GAS, but he wanted to explore the upper limits, which he sure did, in spades...A 20x20 prop turning 9000+ rpm is POWER...
There is a 200+ cc engine planned..Such an engine with the torque in the 6000 rpm range would be PERFECT in a TOC size airplane...Fuel choice in a $10,000 dollar competition airplane is the least of the pilot's concerns..
We run glow fuel in our race planes for two reasons, more power and one less system to fail in the airplane..With igniton there are extra batteries and connections to worry about..We ran the SAME glow plugs in our 289cc racing engine for TWO years...I still have 'em, the engine got demolished in a crash...
ANY engine will run happily on either fuel...I took a G26, ran it on GAS, 9000 rpm..Put a different carb on it, ran it on GLOW fuel with ignition got 9600 rpm...Put a glow plug in it, 9600 rpm...
Ban me Hobbsy, your dedicated GAS engine members (and Skypilot) will be ecstatic...
Good post, 4 stroken ron
Ya just gotta sit back and laugh [8D]
I post a picture of the newest, most beautiful engine I ever saw (and ran) on a GAS engine forum and just because it currently is running on GLOW fuel someone gets offended and wants(and gets) it moved to the GLOW engine forum...
The engine was designed and built to be a racing engine, and as such makes more power than the GLOW engines we're running now...It could just as easily run on GAS, all it takes is a Rimfire spark plug and an ignition system..Maybe we could screw some Rimfires in it, then it would be a GAS engine and therefore be eligible for discussion in this elite GAS engine forum..
The designer could just as easily grind the cams to put the torque in the range where it could be used in IMAC and run on GAS, but he wanted to explore the upper limits, which he sure did, in spades...A 20x20 prop turning 9000+ rpm is POWER...
There is a 200+ cc engine planned..Such an engine with the torque in the 6000 rpm range would be PERFECT in a TOC size airplane...Fuel choice in a $10,000 dollar competition airplane is the least of the pilot's concerns..
We run glow fuel in our race planes for two reasons, more power and one less system to fail in the airplane..With igniton there are extra batteries and connections to worry about..We ran the SAME glow plugs in our 289cc racing engine for TWO years...I still have 'em, the engine got demolished in a crash...
ANY engine will run happily on either fuel...I took a G26, ran it on GAS, 9000 rpm..Put a different carb on it, ran it on GLOW fuel with ignition got 9600 rpm...Put a glow plug in it, 9600 rpm...
Ban me Hobbsy, your dedicated GAS engine members (and Skypilot) will be ecstatic...
Good post, 4 stroken ron
11-07-2004, 01:41 PM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
Wow Ralph, I haven't said a single word about this thread being here in the Gas Forum and even posted pics. of my OPS 120, ABITAR 120 and Conley 120. Out of respect for you and your great contributions to this Forum and the fact that it is a beautiful creation from what must have been a huge effort with a marvelous result it has been left here. Talking about MotorCycles will never do anything for that engine.
11-07-2004, 02:44 PM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
You're right, I got a little carried away..[8D] The engine was presented as a glow fueled racing engine, not necessarily made for IMAC, but a larger version with different cams and ignition COULD be...Maybe he'll grind two different sets of cams for the 200, one set for torque and the other for IMAC type flying..
You can put a Rimfire in your glow engines and post them in here, I've seen all three and they're gorgeous too...
The other 4 stroke gassers now available are not even in the same league..
You can put a Rimfire in your glow engines and post them in here, I've seen all three and they're gorgeous too...
The other 4 stroke gassers now available are not even in the same league..
11-09-2004, 10:50 AM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
ORIGINAL: Flypaper 2
Why not a purpose built 4 stroke engine that runs the prop drive off the camshaft. Drop that 16000 rpm hp down to a reasonable 8000 for a more efficient prop rpm? Like a built in reduction drive. It's done on some industrial 4 strokes.
Why not a purpose built 4 stroke engine that runs the prop drive off the camshaft. Drop that 16000 rpm hp down to a reasonable 8000 for a more efficient prop rpm? Like a built in reduction drive. It's done on some industrial 4 strokes.
Also the English rotating cylinder engine drives the prop at the cam speed.
11-09-2004, 11:33 AM
#70
RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
I would say this engine should be in both GLOW and Gas forums. It can be run both ways. Also the good reading and photos ...then would be shared more!!! Thanks Capt,n ENGINE lOVER
07-01-2011, 01:06 AM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
What ever happened to this engine and how much did they finally sell for? Where did the pictures go?
Lookie, I used the search engine to search for an engine and it finally worked.
Lookie, I used the search engine to search for an engine and it finally worked.
07-01-2011, 05:29 AM
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RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
I tried to call Dan the other day..Phone is disconnected, website is gone...Too bad. He had the twin installed in a racing Kelly F1D, don't know if he ever flew it....[
]
]
08-28-2011, 12:30 PM
#73
RE: 80 cc Twin DOHC
ORIGINAL: Antique
80cc, DOHC, 8 valves,under 6 lbs..Next version will be lighter.[8D]
Glow fuel, 20x20 prop 9500 rpm..
A HIGH tech 4 stroke..
There's also a 30cc single, glow fuel, weight is 40 oz. No pics yet...
Wish I could take credit for it. It was made entirely, except for screws and bearings, by the owner..ALL CNC, no castings.... One piece crank with 7075 aluminum con rods with inserts on the big ends and bushings on the wrist pins...
80cc, DOHC, 8 valves,under 6 lbs..Next version will be lighter.[8D]
Glow fuel, 20x20 prop 9500 rpm..
A HIGH tech 4 stroke..
There's also a 30cc single, glow fuel, weight is 40 oz.
No pics yet...Wish I could take credit for it. It was made entirely, except for screws and bearings, by the owner..ALL CNC, no castings.... One piece crank with 7075 aluminum con rods with inserts on the big ends and bushings on the wrist pins...
