famousdave

My Feedback: (61)

Flypaper2 -

Not sure what aircooled engines you were monitoring.. a Corvair perhaps My Racing Porsche Boxer ran 280 and up to 320 under extreme conditions (like hard racing in 90*+ temps) above that things start to melt.

My DA50 runs 190* at the plug verified using a RCATS telemetry unit.

Bottom line is if your spit sizzles on the head - ITS WAY TOO HOT! It might be fine for a lawnmower, but an R/C engine should not operate over 220 - if it does your burning it up...

DP

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

Here is some interesting reading DP

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_96.../tm.htm#964307

famousdave

My Feedback: (61)

Good info.... I too am a firm believer in the ear over anything else.

I use the data logger unit when setting up baffles on new planes, I put one thermocouple under the plug using a setup similar to a full scale airplane CHT probe. One also goes on the head fins and one at the cylinder base (for case temp).

I still race Shifter Karts, have raced air cooled Porsches in IMSA (GTU), SCCA, PCCA for years and many a two stoke motorycle. We always tried to get the most out of the engine with the lowest head temps measured at the plug. The only true way to do this is on the Dyno under full telemetry and controlled loads. On my RSR I used water injection to keep the detonation down and cylinder pressures up..

I have set all my r/c engines up by ear and then confirm with CHT readings.. and I rarely see a reading above 220, even on new engines.
They all run clean too and have been using Klotz and Bel Ray Synthetics.

DP

the Wasp

My Feedback: (1)

Klotz

I'm not trying to start a fight here !!

but,,, BME told my friend several times (on the phone) NOT to use Klotz in his 105cc BME,,, I wonder why,,,

OK, but I have another friend that has been burning Klotz in his G23 Heli motor for 8 years, he just replaced this motor but he love's Klotz and will keep using it...



Jim

sillyness

My Feedback: (25)

I'll be running H1R... simply because I can't run 100:1 in my ZDZ-80 and I can't run MX2T in my DA (both warranty issues)... H1R is the only oil I can run that won't void the warranty on one or the other.

With I had telemtry to help me tune... also wish I had a good set of ears around... sucks being the only guy flying gassers in the immediate area.

Flypaper 2

DP:
Had to laugh when you mentioned the Corvair. My flying buddy's wife had one and we were more worried about the oil leaking on the ground than overheating. Luckily those aircooled cars had thermostatically controlled fans, as you know, till the belt broke. The ones I worked on that ran those temps were the Snow machine motors. Worked on a few racers back in the 70s and 80s.

Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

Im sitting here looking at the instructions that came with my brand new DA100...Where does it say only H1R.
Does anyone read???
It says ANY HIGH QUALITY synthetic oil. []
The same goes for the instructions with a ZDZ.[]

rmh

MX2T runs perfectly in the DA100 - Did DA recommend against it ? Iam surprised.

captinjohn

Wasp...what Klotz oil was it they said not to run. There are I believe at leat 3 Types. The container has a part #number on it. Also what was the ratio of oil to gas? How about you...do you like Klotz? Capt,n

Riverdancer

My Feedback: (5)

OK Let me see if I got this straight.. I would use Bonnami to get the engine started.. Windex to keep it from wearing out.. Baking soda to increase the top RPM.. Jet dry to get more speed.. and an apple a day to keep the doctor away.

Thanks to all for the great input.. I thought the results were surprising though.

Take Care

Riverdancer

sillyness

My Feedback: (25)

I talked to DA on the phone a couple months ago and the guy I talked to said that they could not recommend MX2T because they had never tested it (and had no intention of testing it). Then he "warned" me that they could tell what oil was run in the motor if I sent it in for service. I agree with you... I feel like I'm getting mixed signals.

The only oil they spoke strongly about the was 100:1, which I can't run (don't want a different gas can for each motor I have). When asking about ANY other oils I got really wishy-washy answers... "Yeah well, you might be able to run that but...". I really wish they'd get over their Amsoil fetish and try some new stuff.

Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

I copied this from ZDZs web page.....
They only recommend a ratio and not a particular brand X.

This battle over manufacturers recommended oils etc was waged in the auto industry when Fast Oil change places started up and manufacturers tried to void warranties because the oil change wasnt done at their dealerships.
They lost that battle.

RC Showcase did replace the piston,ring and cylinder head on my 60rv due to scarring 2yrs and 9months after purchase. No charge no questions and I had told them I was running Klotz, and Belray H1r presently because it gets to be a pain with different mixes for my 3 when I go fly.
I got the same kind of wishy washy when I tried to ask if maybe it was the oil.

Confused from NC

the Wasp

My Feedback: (1)

captinjohn,,, all I know is BME told him not to use Klotz, I don't think BME said what formula, but I believe they meant not to use any Klotz at all.

Jim

Big_Bird

My Feedback: (1)

They really are proud of Belray H1R at a local motor cycle shop. I bought a 12.8 oz bottle for $5.85 + tax compared to a 16 oz bottle of Mobil 1 MX2T at Autozone for $3.49 + tax.

What did you pay for H1R?

Ken

ptgarcia

My Feedback: (36)

I paid the same at my local Yamaha dealer. I bought a bottle of MC-1 and H1R to try. Now, what do I do with my case of Amsoil 100:1...

rc bugman

My Feedback: (30)

PT

I also have a couple of cases of Amsoil 100:1 and I ran the study! I guess we wait a couple of months until some individuals forget about this study and sell it here on RCU.

Elson

RTK

My Feedback: (1)

bugman- Do you think that the test results would be different if you ran this engine at summer ambient temperatures? I would think that your engine would run substantially hotter. You might have less carbon or maybe more.

Big_Bird

My Feedback: (1)

Pauly, for several years I ran the Amsoil 100:1 at 80:1 in Sachs-Dolmar, Brison, and Zenoah engines. The piston tops are covered with a layer carbon. However, I have never had a stuck ring or engine failure due to this oil. Compression is very good on these engines. There is no unusual build up of carbon in the exhaust port or muffler.

I'm sure that having the cleanest engine in town is very good, however if you run an engine with a little carbon in the combustion chamber and can fly it year after year without even having to change the plug then it's hard to argue with that success. I bought a bottle of H1R just to try it, not that I've had any trouble with the oils that I've been using. It's still important to have sufficient air flow across the cylinder no matter what oil you use.

Elson had a specific goal in mind with his tests, that being to provide reliable operation of his collector plane engines under extreme load conditions. Our planes normally don't operate under these conditions. If you've been having success with the oil you are currently using then keep using it. If you want to experiment with H1R then go for it, it's probably a very good oil since so many of the motocross boys use it and they wouldn't be risking their expensive engines if the oil was prone to ruining them.


Ken

NdFrSpeed

My Feedback: (1)

Ive been watching this thread but not saying much,,but if your concerned about a little carbon on the piston you better check the cars your driveing,,carbon on the piston is natural build up,,your cars have it,,and there not a 2 stroke,,,it comes from the hydrocarbons in the gas,,,,if your running a 2 stroke and the piston is running clean on top your running it wrong,,your getting to much piston wash,,,if your runing the engine correctly,,you'll get a certain amout of carbon build up right away,,then it will more or less stay that way for ever,,if it starts building up more its because somethings not running right,,,the best way to keep track of a 2 stroke is by reading the spark plug burn and looking in the cylinder with a flashlight for piston wash,,doesnt matter about the carbon build up,,,what does matter is the color of the spark plug and what the wash looks like on the top the piston,,,, and if you really want to tune the engine use EGT's,,,run the the exhaust temps between 1150 and 1250,,thats where a 2 stroke likes to run,better on the down side,,and one of the Reasons you see Amsoil all over the place is its the best high performance 2 stroke oil on the market today,,and belive me ive tried them all,,,anyway heres a picture of what a perfect 2 stroke piston should look like..


Bob

Diablo-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

Say Bob:
Why do you think Amsoil is the best?
The test results by RCBugman showed piston scuffing with Amsoil 100:1.
The only oil that showed piston scuffing in 6 hours of testing wide open - also down on power compared to other oils.

gearsup

My Feedback: (32)

I have two Brisons in which I run Sabre 100:1 mixed at 80:1. One engine went through 18-20 gal. of fuel this past year being run in temps. of 105 plus over the runway. After reading this thread I was currious. I pulled the plug and using a bore light inspected the piston and cllinder. Only a thin layer of carbon and no evidence of scuffing. Presently I am going to run this in my BME 105 at 80:1. Just read those plugs too. LD

NdFrSpeed

My Feedback: (1)

Ok,,,I'll take that back about Amsoil,,,there are a lot of good oils on the market today,,but you have to look at what there made for,,are they made for heavy loaded engines,lightly loaded engines or what,,makes a big difference,,a 3D plane with a DA 100 doing lots of hovering Aero manuavers,,you should be useing a oil designed for farily heavy loads on the motor...,,,ok lets talk about some of the new oils today,,,when these manufactures designed these oils they weren't thinking about our gas engines,,,you see all these mixes today...50-1,80-1,and 100-1,,there are engines on the market today designed for these mixes,,,you surely dont want to take a engine that was designed for 50-1 and run a 100-1 oil mixed at a 100-1 in it,,if i was going to run a 100-1 oil in a 50-1 engine,,i would start at about 60-1,,,but keep a close eye on the spark plug color,,if i could never get the color i was looking for i would go which ever way i need to go with the mix to get the desired color,,the perfect color of a spark plug should be kind of light choclate brown,,if your burning black,,,either too much oil,,or your running the engine to rich,,,,with our airplanes its kind of tuff to do this,,,,but with most 2 strokes the way to test the spark plug color is run the engine wide open for a couple of minutes,,then shut the engine off at wide open throttle,,,,,then pull the plug,,,it should be a light choclate brown in color,,,another way would be just fly the plane fairly wide open for about 5 minutes,,,land as fast as you can shut it down,,,,check the plug color,,,ok lets look at what the oils primary job in a motor is for,,oils job in a motor is to lube the bearings,,no.1 job,,even in a 2 stroke engine,,the number one job is keeping oil to the bearings.,,it really has little affect on engine temp,,,,now on the other side,,,gas,,,its primary job is make combustion,,at the same time cooling the piston,,,gas is what controls cylinder temp,,not oil,,more gas,,lower cylnder temp,,less gas higher cylinder temps..belive it or not gas is allso what lubes the cylinders ,,more so then the oil mixed in the gas..below is a picture of what a good color should be on a spark plug,,not really the best,,i like mine a little more brown than this picture.

Bob

NdFrSpeed

My Feedback: (1)

Ok just so you know a little of my background on this,,it comes from 20 years of building high performance engines both 2 stroks and 4 strokes,,,,and Owned and operatored a Machine shop..,,heres a picture of a 2 stroke,,its one of my own engines i did as a experiment,,to see how far i could mod a engine and still keep it together,,way to many mods to even talk about,,,ive since sold the sled,,but the motor is still running strong,,,the only problem I ever had with this enigne,,one carb iced up one time and lost a cylinder,,in the 3 years that I ran it,,,just give you some idea ,,,most engines to live today have about 120 lbs of compression,,this engine has 215 lbs per cylinder,,it was kind of test to see how it would live,,its still alive today,,,,what you see comeing out of the exhaust pipes or EGT probes,,,its the only way to keep track of a moded engine..


Bob

rmh

Nice write up - The only thing I would add - (from experience --is that eliminating any carbon -ain't all bad - but this is because I run the engines on tuned systems - and only require full power -once in a while --so --the engine runs fat most of the time --and keeps clean .
If I could monitor the mix while in th air I would change the needle as I go - but can't do it - so easiest -safest - run a bit rich - run 32-1 at least so that max power -IS max power - not max + over the edge heat .
When I was younger back in the late 50/60 time frame we ran Chevs and a blown alky Chrysler ,
Making sure we never went over the edge was really important - in seconds -get careless - you got a $$$$$ reminder .
I learned plug reading from a Champion rep at Bonneville back then - that guy could see stuff I never thought of .

NdFrSpeed

My Feedback: (1)

Dick

Yes im betting we both learned our lessons the hard way back then,,,and your right,,you want a motor to live with good performance keep it on the sweet side for sure,,,I remember the first engine i ran on alky,,,I needed a case of pistons till I figured out what i was doing wrong.,,,I'm in the process of doing a little minor work on a DA 100 to see what i can do,,just clean up work,,balanceing,,,,,,,,


Bob