3w 106 initial test run and observations
04-27-2005, 03:37 AM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
For those of you that think that all 106's are created equal, please check the post (#11) by 2.6mrod of my 106 crankcase, you may change your mind.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/3W_G...2765077/tm.htm
Mick
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/3W_G...2765077/tm.htm
Mick
04-27-2005, 09:20 AM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
Yes Dave I have flown at PGRC and I have heard your name but I dont know if I have met you or not. I already have a Mezlik 28-10. I was curious to know since my QS106 is brand new if the 28-10 is too much for break in. I hate to buy a 27-10 just for break-in unless its absolutely nesessary. I also have 3w cannister mufflers on this plane. Does this increase the rpms and make a 28-10 more reasonable for break in. Razorback has said it would probably be Ok. I would like to know what other people are using for break in.
04-27-2005, 10:06 AM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
TopGunner:
I have no personal experience regarding if the Mej 28-10 is too much for break in (my opinion is that it would probably be ok, just keep it a bit rich during break in.
Did you say what this engine was going into? Hope to see you at one of the DC Area fields sometime. I am planning on being at the IMAC contest at Charles County RC the week after next and have flown at Pax River as well.
Dave
I have no personal experience regarding if the Mej 28-10 is too much for break in (my opinion is that it would probably be ok, just keep it a bit rich during break in.
Did you say what this engine was going into? Hope to see you at one of the DC Area fields sometime. I am planning on being at the IMAC contest at Charles County RC the week after next and have flown at Pax River as well.
Dave
04-27-2005, 11:04 AM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
ORIGINAL: KLOTZ
Hey IanB, was your new QS run at the factory? My new DA was, my new QS had not seen a drop of fuel until I started it. My needles on the QS were not even close out of the box. BTW, my DA wont approach the performance of my QS reguardless of the prop. Its much more noticable in the air than with a tach. But for the tach guys I have seen 6400 on a Menz 28-10 on a good day. I fly it with this prop spinning 6200. With the time thats on the QS now I could lean it and probably see more. Im close to 20 gallons..
Hey IanB, was your new QS run at the factory? My new DA was, my new QS had not seen a drop of fuel until I started it. My needles on the QS were not even close out of the box. BTW, my DA wont approach the performance of my QS reguardless of the prop. Its much more noticable in the air than with a tach. But for the tach guys I have seen 6400 on a Menz 28-10 on a good day. I fly it with this prop spinning 6200. With the time thats on the QS now I could lean it and probably see more. Im close to 20 gallons..
It appears that none of the 3Ws are run before shipping. Every 3W engine I have installed in the past year the needles were way off - no way they were running the way they came anyway. On a 75i that I just broke in the typical needle settings suggested in the manual were not even close... ended up the needles needed 3 turns out for the engine to even run... runs flawlessly now though.
Every 3W I have laid my hands on so far this year has run like a fine watch. Once tuned, they have superb idle, very smoothe midrange and gobs of torque and power on the high end. My 3W-75i swings a Bolly 26x10 with amazing authority and very little vibration.
Isn't a 26x10 the same prop DA recommends to break in a 100 with ??
I think the 106 is one of the best engines made, ranks right up there with the DA100 for overall reliability, power and performance.
DP
04-27-2005, 08:35 PM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
Yes Dave I fly at Charles county RC and I hope to see you there at the Imac meet in May. I am putting this QS106 on a 3W extra 300s. I'm hoping to get good performance out of this engine.
04-30-2005, 09:20 AM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
UPDATE ON THE 3W106
An interesting thing that 3w suggest that I have never done before is that the engine can be broken in on a test stand by setting to run at 2500rpm for several hours ( lawn boy 32:1). Up til now i have only broken in engines in the plane. I was a little nervous of this engine as my last experience with 3w was less than good
The engine now has 2 1/2 gallons through it
Handling throttle response are as good as before perhaps slightly better
the AM 25x12 3 blader now turns at 6700rpm approx 100 rpm more than my 12 gallon DA
The big surprise was putting on an MSC 26x10.............turns that at 6660 which is a whole 3 or 400 rpm more than my 12 gallon DA
All of my engines use regular bolt on mufflers and hi octane
Got to say........liking this thing a lot
Kindest regards Ian B
An interesting thing that 3w suggest that I have never done before is that the engine can be broken in on a test stand by setting to run at 2500rpm for several hours ( lawn boy 32:1). Up til now i have only broken in engines in the plane. I was a little nervous of this engine as my last experience with 3w was less than good
The engine now has 2 1/2 gallons through it
Handling throttle response are as good as before perhaps slightly better
the AM 25x12 3 blader now turns at 6700rpm approx 100 rpm more than my 12 gallon DA
The big surprise was putting on an MSC 26x10.............turns that at 6660 which is a whole 3 or 400 rpm more than my 12 gallon DA
All of my engines use regular bolt on mufflers and hi octane
Got to say........liking this thing a lot
Kindest regards Ian B
05-02-2005, 04:58 PM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
dude remember to adjust the needles before you run it.....mine was very lean from the factory.........I went to the settings in the manual then adjusted fromm there........awesome motor.....
Has anyone any experience running this engine on cans..........what model and what if any performance increase?
When talking to DA re my 100 about cans they said the performance gain was......"minimal" approx 100 rpm if your lucky.........i know a lot of people report increases with there DA's but its strange that the manufacturer of the engine doesnt claim the same.
Very curious as to real world reports of the 3w106 on cans?
Kindest regards,IanB
Has anyone any experience running this engine on cans..........what model and what if any performance increase?
When talking to DA re my 100 about cans they said the performance gain was......"minimal" approx 100 rpm if your lucky.........i know a lot of people report increases with there DA's but its strange that the manufacturer of the engine doesnt claim the same.
Very curious as to real world reports of the 3w106 on cans?
Kindest regards,IanB
05-02-2005, 05:05 PM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
3W is notorious for shipping with the incorrect needle settings. One of the "DA vs 3W" arguements. The engines are probably not run first, but rather statically set up on the bench. I don't know that for sure but I can only guess that to be the case. The last 3 3W engines I have worked on all were too lean even to run.
I have learned to just richen the crap out of them and let the engine blubber for the first minute or two and then lean to break in mixture.
The cans add a little performance, maybe 300 RPM, but mainly they are used for noise control. True tuned pipes will add considerable power, but they are the size of baseball bats!
DP
I have learned to just richen the crap out of them and let the engine blubber for the first minute or two and then lean to break in mixture.
The cans add a little performance, maybe 300 RPM, but mainly they are used for noise control. True tuned pipes will add considerable power, but they are the size of baseball bats!
DP
05-05-2005, 08:18 AM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
Im reasonably familiar with the possible gains from full length tuned pipes..........used to run zenoah 62's on them back in the uk. I just dont see to many people on here that have ran the 106 on cannisters.........(or maybe even on standard mufflers THEN cannisters to properly see the performance gain)
Perhaps I will do this and publish results here?
Perhaps I will do this and publish results here?
05-05-2005, 09:14 AM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
I made the switch on my friends QS106 going to PEFA's bought from AI. The cannisters are very quiet but added ZERO rpms to the motor. I made the same switch on my QS150 to PEFA's and they added ZERO rpms to the motor. I later dumped the PEFA's (junk IMHO) and went with MTW's and gained 300 rpms. Both of my PEFA's broke cracked all the way around on the inlet nipples, they dent easily and one of them plugged up. Since going to the MTW's they have shown no signs of pluggage after many gallons of fuel and they don't dent or crack. Quality product and cheaper than PEFA's. All header pipes used were the standard aluminum ones made for 3W's.
05-05-2005, 10:08 AM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
Hey thanks for the good info planeinsane where did you get the mtw?
What size of can did you use?
Did you get the headers from a.i.?
Can you remember rpm numbers and prop sizes?
On the 35% carden Im not really SURE if its worth putting the cans on...........I think a 3 blader will get me under the noise limit however 300rpm gain is pretty damn substantial!!
Nice one!
IanB
What size of can did you use?
Did you get the headers from a.i.?
Can you remember rpm numbers and prop sizes?
On the 35% carden Im not really SURE if its worth putting the cans on...........I think a 3 blader will get me under the noise limit however 300rpm gain is pretty damn substantial!!
Nice one!
IanB
05-05-2005, 10:26 AM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
PEFA cans will last forever if they are cushion mounted correctly (i.e. with the 3W mount or equivalent) The reason cans fracture is from vibration. Also - chances are good that if your PEFA cans did not add a least a few more RPM your headers or interconnects were too long.
MTW cans are good - but I think they weigh more and I think are larger than the PEFAs ... besides why would anyone need to worry about denting cans - watchya doing.. draggin them on the ground ??
I have seen a few of them plug up.. probably the fiberglass packing shifting from an afterfire...
In my opinion, while I like the quiet power cans provide, I think all of them are a complete rippoff when it comes to pricing. I can buy a full stainless steel exhaust system for my car for the same price I paid for a set of cheezy PEFA cans for my 3W106. We are talking chincy aluminum cans that are worth $50 max no matter who makes 'em!.
We keep paying though.. whether KS, PEFA or MTW so who's the dummy?
DP
MTW cans are good - but I think they weigh more and I think are larger than the PEFAs ... besides why would anyone need to worry about denting cans - watchya doing.. draggin them on the ground ??
I have seen a few of them plug up.. probably the fiberglass packing shifting from an afterfire...
In my opinion, while I like the quiet power cans provide, I think all of them are a complete rippoff when it comes to pricing. I can buy a full stainless steel exhaust system for my car for the same price I paid for a set of cheezy PEFA cans for my 3W106. We are talking chincy aluminum cans that are worth $50 max no matter who makes 'em!.
We keep paying though.. whether KS, PEFA or MTW so who's the dummy?
DP
05-05-2005, 11:06 AM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
DP, my MTW cans are mounted in exactly the same mounts as the PEFAs were and no cracking. The first PEFA that cracked was due to them not welding completely around the nipple to begin with. Next header length is as recommended by 3W. Also, the pluggage isn't from fiberglass because there is no fiberglass in these mufflers, only metal baffle plates. My plates were competely plugged because when I cut the thing apart I could see it. Also, the only reason I run these cheesy expensive cans is because I have to, otherwise I'd run plain ole mufflers. Also, you can dent PEFAs with your fingers but not the MTW's. The MTW's are smaller than the PEFAs thus they weigh the same as PEFAs.
IanB, my 300 rpm gain was on my 150 motor. The MTW cans can be had at DA. I'm using the 100cc cans and my headers were bought from Cactus. RPM gain was as follows:
Mejzlik 28.5x12 3blade 5400 before and 5700 after
FUCHS 32x12 2blade 5500 before and 5800 after
IanB, my 300 rpm gain was on my 150 motor. The MTW cans can be had at DA. I'm using the 100cc cans and my headers were bought from Cactus. RPM gain was as follows:
Mejzlik 28.5x12 3blade 5400 before and 5700 after
FUCHS 32x12 2blade 5500 before and 5800 after
05-05-2005, 11:56 AM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
Interesting... well here's what the man in brown brought me today! I just got my PEFA cans this AM.. they look very nice. Welds are perfect and the inlets are pretty beefy. I can see where they will dent easily though..
Man I still can't see where the money is in these things...
DP
Man I still can't see where the money is in these things...
DP
05-05-2005, 02:41 PM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
I know Bobby and have seen his business... He does OK but I know for sure he 'aint takin it all! My guess is since the stuff is made in Das Hinterland that the exchange rate, tariffs and shipping consume at least 1/2 of it. Germany's labor rate is worse than the US. My guess is the distributors are making maybe 10-15% max and the freaking Government is taking more than they are!
Hmmm it gets me thinking. I am a damn good welder.
DP
Hmmm it gets me thinking. I am a damn good welder.
DP
05-05-2005, 03:14 PM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
With the cannister you can get maybe 100 rpm or 200 rpm more at the top end but where you notice the diference in in low and mid power is away much better.
05-05-2005, 05:39 PM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
Oscar what do you mean when you say low and mid power is much better..........I dont understand?
Low power is low power..............mid power is mid power................do you mean that low power and mid power are at different openings of the butterfly? If so I dont want that......the throttle response and midrange are perfect right now........please explain in more detail what you mean?
Low power is low power..............mid power is mid power................do you mean that low power and mid power are at different openings of the butterfly? If so I dont want that......the throttle response and midrange are perfect right now........please explain in more detail what you mean?
05-05-2005, 05:42 PM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
DP it would be interesting for you to post rpm figures before and after you put on the pefa mufflers?
05-05-2005, 05:53 PM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
I would gladly do it but I don't have the regular mufflers... I am also putting the engine right on the plane and fly - I don't do bench runs..
DP
DP
05-06-2005, 07:44 AM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
Ok,my english is not very fluid but i do my best.
What i tried to say is that the Low and mid of the engine with cannister, increase the torque and have a better performance in the range of 2000 rpm to 5000 rpm (aprox).
What i tried to say is that the Low and mid of the engine with cannister, increase the torque and have a better performance in the range of 2000 rpm to 5000 rpm (aprox).
05-06-2005, 07:57 AM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
If you want to have a inexpensive -really well made pipe -try the new AMT stuff from RCShowcase.
The canisters are quiet -and can be set to give better than open stack output but the full length pipes are really good
and very sturdy.
So far I have only used the 50 size in actual operation (a 100ZDZNGtwin) but have my 50 setup waiting for the rains to stop.
The 100 turns the Mejzlic 26x10 over 7000on the ground and it is hauling an (ugh!) 30 pound model in IMAC competition.
My 50 turns an easy , verified 7700 on the 22x8 Mejzlic on this pipe .and no peakiness orstumbling at midrange.
What I really liked tho -is that throttle response is very crisp with this pipe .
I used same tuning lengths as with the KS pipes (around 70-75 cm)
The canisters are quiet -and can be set to give better than open stack output but the full length pipes are really good
and very sturdy.
So far I have only used the 50 size in actual operation (a 100ZDZNGtwin) but have my 50 setup waiting for the rains to stop.
The 100 turns the Mejzlic 26x10 over 7000on the ground and it is hauling an (ugh!) 30 pound model in IMAC competition.
My 50 turns an easy , verified 7700 on the 22x8 Mejzlic on this pipe .and no peakiness orstumbling at midrange.
What I really liked tho -is that throttle response is very crisp with this pipe .
I used same tuning lengths as with the KS pipes (around 70-75 cm)
05-06-2005, 01:00 PM
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RE: 3w 106 initial test run and observations
I think the 106 on a properly tuned .........tuned pipe set up would be a MONSTER.
In the UK after a day of cutting manifolds and testing.......I got a g62 over 800rpm more than open exhaust!!!
Didnt care a rats ass about 3d........for pattern work it was amazing turning a seyer 21 1/2 by 11 1/2 3 blader at 7600rpm
Problem is getting the plane to balance with tuned pipes...........its a carden extra......??
I have decided to build the 35%extra purely as an IMAC plane so pipes would not really be an issue if there were any throttling issues compared to 3d.
Dick do amt make cans as well as tuned pipes if so wherre can i get some info?
I agree with DP that the money charged for the cans at least is WAY over the top............If anyone can tig weld.......lets give it a try. I figure just a large volume muffler would probably be easy to make and could be fitted under the engine box between f1 and f2.
In the UK after a day of cutting manifolds and testing.......I got a g62 over 800rpm more than open exhaust!!!
Didnt care a rats ass about 3d........for pattern work it was amazing turning a seyer 21 1/2 by 11 1/2 3 blader at 7600rpm
Problem is getting the plane to balance with tuned pipes...........its a carden extra......??
I have decided to build the 35%extra purely as an IMAC plane so pipes would not really be an issue if there were any throttling issues compared to 3d.
Dick do amt make cans as well as tuned pipes if so wherre can i get some info?
I agree with DP that the money charged for the cans at least is WAY over the top............If anyone can tig weld.......lets give it a try. I figure just a large volume muffler would probably be easy to make and could be fitted under the engine box between f1 and f2.