DiscoWings

My Feedback: (76)

I'm begining to wonder if these two engines are even the same thing...Here are some questions concerns I have:


1, I have YET, YET to see a Evo 58 run the same number of rpms as a MVVS 58; both these engines on a pipe no issue with restrictive muffler or anything. The MVVS 58 is swinging a 24x10 at 1200 rpm more than the EVO 58 on a 24x10; I have seen 2 and heard about 3 of these Evolution 58s constantly turn the 24x10 @ 5600-5700 rpm compared to 6800-6900 rpm on the MVVS58. We first thought it was an issue with the breakin oil, being mobil 1 synthetic, so 2 of the engines were broken-in with 3 gallons of Petroleum Based oil, then switched to synthetic. The performance on the synthetic based oil breakin was identical to the 2 engines broken in with petroleum. STILL, even mixed with 40:1 oil, the same oil that is being run in a MVV58, the 3 EVO58s are under performing! Its not a tuning issue as they are tuned perfectly.

So the question is, HAS anyone been able to get an Evoltution 58 to run the same numbers as the MVVS58?


2, The ignition system is completely different, the MVVS58 has an RPM readout, the evolution doesn't? Also the color of the leads going into the battery are differnt as well. It would seem the MVVS58 ignition is better? Another difference is the way the ignition cap goes onto the spark plug, setscrew on the Evo58, plug on the MVVS58?

3, Bearings, Not 100% on this, but from what I understand the MVVS58 has 3 ball bearings on the crank where the EVO58 only has 2?

These are just some of the questions/concerns I have. Any comments to confirm or dismiss (with proof) would make it very informative to people considering picking this engine up.[8D]

Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

Depends what prop etc, my Evolution 58 turns an NX or a BME 24/10 at 6400 no sweat and its still on 32/1 breakin rich as I have not had the chance to go thru the supplied oil yet and that with a Bisson muffler. Tached it more than once using a handheld and the tach in my 9Z so I think its pretty accurate.

Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

If you look at the parts expolded view for the MVVS I see that it also has the set screw style ignition cap, same as a ZDZ, 2 magnets on the hub. I know that the smaller Evolutions have the rpm feature but the 58 definately does not.
If mine was only turning 5600 I would be unhappy but it isnt and Im not

ljones5000

My Feedback: (2)

I don't own either one but have read enough on here to know that Evolution and Evo are not the same engine.

Larry

DiscoWings

My Feedback: (76)

Jones, we are comparing the MVVS58 and Evolution 58, not the EVO58 to the Evolution58
From what I understand EVO motors is a spanish compnay, do they have a 58cc engine as well? If they do, man its going to be confusing when someone says evo58[&o]

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

.

TooLy

The Evolution and Mvvs 58 have 2 bearings, I've just checked this out.

DiscoWings

My Feedback: (76)

Alright, so we all agree with this so far:

1, Both engines have ball bearings
2, Ignition system is the same on both engines, no RPM reading on either the MVVS58 or the Evolution 58

So about the performance, how are the Evolution 58s comparing agaisnt the MVVS58s? Anyone able to hit 6900 rpm with them?

budgetdude

My Feedback: (6)

Dude, they are the same engine, the guy who stamps the mvvs logo probably has lunch with the guy who stamps the evolution.
6900, with what prop. I saw a video on the mvvs site where a dude tachs his at 6000 or so with a Mez 26x10.

DiscoWings

My Feedback: (76)

Yes, and on a 24x10 the MVVS 58 does 7000 rpm, Has anyone been able to get any where close to that with the Evoltution 58? The best I have seen on the 24x10 is 5600 rpm [&o]

If they are the same engine, why isnt' anyone posting tach readings for the Evolution 58?

greyhound man

My Feedback: (5)

um....IT'S WINTER and nobody's flying

If I ever get back out to the field I will tach mine It is new and has less than a gallon through it but I will find out.

Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

I guess Ill say it again I get 6400 with 24/10 and a Bisson muffler.

The figures you read are mostly with tuned pipes and carbon fiber blades plus tach readings can be full of it!

Jimnie

Andy,
I guess no body wants to hear your mesaage. Yes it is the same engine. The Evolutin turns the Mejzlik 24x10 with the MVVS designed cannister exhaust at 6900 to 7000 rpm right out of the box. The Bisson exhaust on the same engine with the same prop reads 6600 rpm. Fuel and oil make very little difference. The weather does have an impact on rpm readings however.

When there are statements such as the one regarding the difference in the ignition it shows me that the person has not even taken a look at the Evolution 58 so how can he quote RPM numbers! Same thing regarding the bearings, someone is following another agenda here.

To have a real "Tach" contest is first of all sort of rediculous but secondly needs to be done exactly side by side, same day, same prop, same exhaust, same fuel. Second hand information is never a good thing to quote as it commonly makes a person look foolish in the end.

Good flying, (that is what it is really about!)
Jimnie

AVIOJET

Extracted from MVVS 58's Electronic Ignition System instructions:

The electronic ignition EZM 1TI, appart from safety functions is equipped with a data output that together with EZM DATA TERMINAL enables to monitor many parameters:
1. Measuring the engine revolutions and the ignition unit battery voltage.
2. Measuring the engine revolutions and the pre-ignition corresponding to them.
3. Displaying maximal engine revolution.
4. Displaying total running time in hrs or min

My MVVS 58 turns a Bambula 24x8 at 6500 rpm reading with Futaba F-28 tacho at the second tank of fuel in the test stand.

BR

Jesus

Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

Ben Beyer also said his turned 5600 but at 5000ft above sea level and with a Bisson with the curled tips still on so I would say that seems a bit suspect.

Bottom line is mine yanks a Wild Hare Ultimate off the ground and goes vertical out of sight and it is way more power than my ZDZ60 ever had, in fact I had a Brison 4.2 that couldnt turn the same prop with as much authority.

ben beyer

My Feedback: (23)

Guess I'll jump in and say something since my name has now entered the debate. I was getting 5600 RPM, but I was also using a 24x10 which is a big load for the engine at this altitude whether it be MVVS or Evolution. My reference for that one is when I asked Dick Hanson about it. I hadn't cut the tips off of my Bisson muffler then either (will always add a few hundred RPM's). Plus, I had to send my engine in because it apparently had a bad crankshaft.

Furthermore, Disco Wings is not using good statistics. He has two engines one being an MVVS and the other being Evolution. There is no way you could take that data and publish a paper as people would laugh at you. You have to replicate the trial using multiple engines. Maybe the person with the Evolution got a bad one? We don't know. Not every engine out there is going to run exactly the same. An example of this is Dick Hansons Evolution 26 on a pipe. It will turn over 9000 RPM with an 18x6. Other people only get 8700 or so. Who's right? Maybe Dick got a really good engine or knows more how to tune it properly. Take the Super Tigre G2300, some run, some don't. You'd also have to have the same person adjust the needle settings as others may like theirs a little richer. Perform a test using 20 MVVS 58's and 20 Evolution 58's with 95% confidence intervals and if you say that one statistically produces more power than the ohter, I will beleive you. Until then, you don't have a case.

Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

Sorry Ben didnt mean to use your name in vain

ben beyer

My Feedback: (23)

It's cool, I've been wanting to say something. I mean whether you buy a Dodge, Nissan, Ford, etc. they don't take the first engine off of the production line, throw it on a dyno and use that to set the engine's power specs.

DiscoWings

My Feedback: (76)

Ok well I'm on 300 feet elevation. Test the Evolution 58 on MTW 75TDK canister and header, so its not a muffler issue. The engine got 5625 tops.

A Guy in New Orleans before Katrina had a MVVS 58, JMB 80 muffler, 24x10 6855 RPM TNC tach! DA-50 modified Pitts: 6780 RPM
AndyT, what muffler are you using, bisson side mount inverted muffler or the wrap-aroud inverted pitts style muffler?

DiscoWings

My Feedback: (76)

Ben, why are assuming I'm publising anything, this entire post a is aquestion! You post a paper when you complete your research, while in fact I'm doing it right now. I'm sorry but the mere fact that you are talking my findings as publishable material, or even elevating to a paper status is what is really laughable...

The question I asked is that if anyone was able to get higher than 5600 rpm with the evolution 58! The reason I posted this is because I have witnessed 2 Evolution 58s produce 5600 rpm, had a conversation with a guy who also had an EVolution 58 only getting around 5500-5600 rpm. I compared these 3 engines to an MVVS 58 and found that the MVVS 58 was making power. I clearly stated this when I started the post; You either didn't read it, didn't understand, or jumped to the conclusion prematurely.

In fact if you are getting 5600, then WHat the hell, your the 4th person getting the same exact RPM reading. AnydyT says he is getting 6400, so I would like to know his setup, what oil he used e.t.c. Its not a matter of tuning, these people are veterans tuners in the hobby; they all were getting around the same RPM which I find very hard to belive as just a coincidence or tuning issue; like I said earlier, even you are getting the same RPM reading!

I'm not going to perform a test of 20 evolution 58s vs MVVS 58s; If 4 out of 5 Evolution 58's underperform SEVEARLY then thats a problem, thats 80% fail rate in a resonable size sample. These engines need to perform to spec that horizion hobby states, if not they are going to go back, thats it.

In the mean time, anyone considering getting an evolution 58, I suggest they hold off untill we get some more responses on this issue, and it IS AN ISSUE.

calnev4bob

I have a mvvs58 which is a 2nd prodution run tha has exceeded 6900 rpm with a 24/10 prop; 32/1 2t gas oil mix; 91 0ctane gaso;ine. I now run it with a 24/12 mezlix to keep it at the manufactuers recomended max rpm.

marzo91

My Feedback: (57)

calnev4bob, What kind of exhaust? I haven't ran my MVVs 58 Prosport yet, but I hope it's just like yours!

Panzlflyer

My Feedback: (15)

Im using a wrap around Bisson that was provided by Wild Hare, I believe Tom had them modified and I sawed off the tips. I guess we are at about 100ft above sea level if we are lucky.
Mobil MX2T at 32:1 for now with Pemium gas.
Seriously I was amazed at the power the thing had.
It could be the props your using if you put an MSC or Bambula on it then I dare say 5600 is all your gonna get on the Mvvs or Evolution.
Ben is at 5000ft so his readings are way better than yours.

ben beyer

My Feedback: (23)

What I'm saying is to sufficiently say that the engines produce different amounts of power require that you not ask around about what RPM's people are getting. There are so many variables to consider like elevation, which gas they're using, oil mixture, etc. Basically what i'm saying is that you have to get 20 engines of each "make" and then mix up a whole bunch of gas for them all. You need to have the same guy tune each, run the same prop, and run the same muffler system. After each engine is set, then you can take tach readings and compare what you get. Oh, and they all need to have about the same run time on each. You do this, and I'll even run the statistics for you to see if they are significantly different. I'm confident that if I switched to a smaller prop I'd get the same RPM as andyt because we have the same basic set up. But andyt is also at a lower altitude. My altitude is going to lower my power rating because I have to lean out the mixture. Less gas and less air equal less power. That's also assuming our engines are both tuned "properly." I may like to run my a little richer because it's still new. Not all of the variables in the equation are equal so equal comparison cannot be made. Asking for people's RPM numbers leaves too much of variation to make an accurate statement.

DiscoWings

My Feedback: (76)

Ben, 1200 rpm lower is a lot more then just a few variables, were are not talking about 200-300, we are talking about almost 10 lbs of less thrust.[:-] Thats a lot, Andy has been getting 6400, almost 800 rpm more then any other Evoltuion 58 owner I know, he is getting this even with a simple bisson wrap around, I know people with an MTW canister and header not getting anywhere near that...[:-]

Anyway, please post your readings with Evolution 58 if you have it. Thanks.