sence-soared

According to my berkly fish scale,the 46 ei w/synchro spark and rear dump muffler weighs 3lbs 12oz. I put the 46 on a hangar nine extra 260,ready to fly weighs 14 lbs. Went to the field to maiden it today,due to poor range check i didnt get to fly it, but i've narrowed the radio problem to reciever. On the engine side of todays outting, the 46 was running after about 6 flips,never skipped a beat, running a 22x8 pro zinger at 7000 rpm according to the tach.,this being my first gasser,i found it to be very user friendly,and evidently Scott or Mark runs em in and sets the needles cause there was need to adjust anything,bolt it on- add fuel-go fly it!, with the exception of radio problems that is.

sence-soared

According to my berkly fish scale,the 46 ei w/synchro spark and rear dump muffler weighs 3lbs 12oz. I put the 46 on a hangar nine extra 260,ready to fly weighs 14 lbs. Went to the field to maiden it today,due to poor range check i didnt get to fly it, but i've narrowed the radio problem to reciever. On the engine side of todays outting, the 46 was running after about 6 flips,never skipped a beat, running a 22x8 pro zinger at 7000 rpm according to the tach.,this being my first gasser,i found it to be very user friendly,and evidently Scott or Mark runs em in and sets the needles cause there was need to adjust anything,bolt it on- add fuel-go fly it!, with the exception of radio problems that is. I guess there was no need to post this twice,oops.

LookNatU2

My Feedback: (11)

I took off my Brillelli 46cc today and with the stock side exit muff it weighed 3lbs.10oz
I relocated the ign battery 27" back from the cowling mount to near the back. the 4.8oz 6v battery is mounted at the tail just before the rear servo's and it balanced at 6" behind the L/E of the wing. Stock settings are 5 3/4 to 6 3/4
Gonna maiden it like this. I run a Zinger 20x8 at around 7300 rpm. hope this works. i can always move the ign battery father back if need be. jjeeeshhh..

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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You are going to be really lucky if moving the ignition battery back doesn't cause ignition interference to the radio. Keeping the ignition battery as far away from the receiver and its associated wiring is the norm, not the exception. Please do a really thorough engine running range check before flying. Good luck.

Jake Ruddy

My Feedback: (40)

I don't really see how an ign. battery can cause issues? I know several people including me who have the ign. batt back beside the main battery in the back half of the fuse. Never have had a problem at all.

LookNatU2

My Feedback: (11)

Didnt get to fly the Goldburg 330 this w/e so i'll try next w/e. I was told its not the ign battery that you have to look out for. It's making sure the ign box itself isnt to close to the receiver that matters. Well anyways the ign battery is still behind the receiver appox 6-8" and the receiver battery another 6-8" behind the ign battery. I supposely bought this plane RTF but it's been one issue after another to get this bird right. Even found a cracked engine mount with jb weld on it.. Not a good idea I think with an almost 4lbs engine hanging on it. Well I didn't think so I replaced it.

Jake Ruddy

My Feedback: (40)

ya personally I wouldnt worry about the battery... range check will tell you whats going on.

I have my packs stacked on top of eachother about 5" behind the receiver and have no issues what so ever.

RVM

Have you been able to fly yet?

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

The ignition module allows a slight amount of RFI and EFI to travel past the unit and into the battery. When you have the battery placed as you do, all the way aft and with a long lead travelling past all of your radio gear, you can see it doesn't require very much current or signal noise to drown out the radio signals coming into your antenna. Trust me, been there/done that. Many people have fought this fight before, and we are only trying to save you a bit of grief.

This layout MAY work well if you put a filter on the power line to the ignition, as close to the ignition as possible. Also, use a PCM receiver with a gas engine. Especially if you are flying near me, my family, my house, or anything else of value to anybody else.

The best thing is to keep the entire radio system and the entire ignition system far removed from one another. 8" - 12" is a good start.

LookNatU2

My Feedback: (11)

No, havent been to fly yet. Hoping for this Sunday. My cloest battery which is the Ign Batt "is" around 10"inches behind the receiver. I can move it further if need be. Yes, I use a PCM receiver.
What kind of fliter and where can i get them to place a filter on the power line to the ignition?
thanks for the imput.

Jake Ruddy

My Feedback: (40)

Well I have over 4 gallons through my setup that has the batteries stacked on top of each and have never had one glitch. My range check is perfect and I do one at the beginning of every day I get to the field. I know several other ppl who run this configuration.. one with over 400 flights on his plane.. never a problem.

Hate to disagree but I think you will find that RF is more a field which is why you have to keep receiver 12" away from an ign. Its not going to travel 24" down an ignition battery powerline.

As far as filters... that's bad advice period. You shouldn't put a filter on to mask a problem. PCM? Again.. misleading advice.. you should be able to fly your gas engine with an FM radio and have no glitches. PCM is there to help prevent other weak signals from interfering with your own and so if you get a hit you only lose your control for a second or two. During that second or two you can program yolur failsafe to kill your engine if you want. PCM should not be used like a filter or to solve a RF problem. You should use PCM in your gas planes but only after you have a proven range check with an FM receiver.

Jake Ruddy

My Feedback: (40)

Just a side note here... One thing I have noticed about thsi hobby is that there is a new company trying to make a buck in it every day.

It is up to you to do proper research and weed through the products that are not needed. A RF filter is much like an equalizer... an equalizer was made for people who are too lazy to spend the time to setup their linkages properly so their el. etc travels match. What happens if that part fails... comes loose and breaks? All you are doing is adding another failure point because you are too lazy to solve the problem properly.

flymeaway

My Feedback: (6)

Talk about bad advice... Without good geometry to start with it's a challenge to match throws with any piece of equipment. While you are partially correct in that there are products on the market for this hobby that may not be necessary, you are dead wrong to imply a person's laziness drives them to use what does work. What if one has a radio that does not support daul servos? Maybe I'm not completely understanding you here but I believe you are being a bit presumptuous with that statement.

dragonfly24_24

its nice that everyone is concerned about everyone else's well being. but it does not take yelling at everyone to get a point across. I have been flying for over ten years, and yes i have crashed a lot of planes. Only one of those planes were lost do to radio failer. Ihad a 7 channel jr radio where i was in a high speed dive when al of a suddun i could not pull up. it was a super skybolt real pretty plane flew just as nice. But i thought that it was pilot error. I did not get a chance to put that radio in another plane for sometime after the crashed. i was installing into a 1/4 scale piper cub when i noticed that there was no elevator. hince the resone i crashed. I think is what i am trying to get at here is that everyone is going to make mistakes and untile the person makes the mistake your not going to be able to tell this person any different. Just because someone is useing a setup you dont like and recomend dont mean it dont work. just my 2 or 3 maybe even 4 cents on the subject.

Jake Ruddy

My Feedback: (40)

Well its up to you to fix the geometry so it works properly. I can understand if someone doesnt have a radio that will mix 2 servos... but today even the basic of the basic can do that. If your radio doesn't do that then you really don't have much of a choice.

I am over simplifying my statements yes... but I was on my way to work and in a hurry.

The fact is this hobby is changing fast and some of the things I see are rediculous. I saw a U-CAN-DO 40 or 60 size the other day for sale for $1200... I was like who in their right mind is going to spend that on a plane that size?

Sure enough I looked at what was on it and I cant believe people are putting 200-350oz torque servos on planes 1/4 scale and smaller. It's just all hype and too much of it causing people to spend a lot more money when it is not really needed.

Sorry this thread got off track... I just hate to see ppl waste money.

RVM

Eh? 200-350oz. servos on planes 1/4 scale and smaller? Why? Who would do that? *sigh*

Scott Ellingson

My Feedback: (146)

I don't know, but with that kind of torq, you better have the travel set correctly or it will rip the surface right off on a plane that small

LookNatU2

My Feedback: (11)

I wasnt able to go fly this last Sunday. Its rained, but I was able to fire the engine up and range test it. Worked great with the antenna down at least 75-80 ft I still had full control and no flutter. I found a few more issues with this plane that need fixing. I bought this plane from a guy here on RCU and I dont want to flame him, So, lets just say this plane was built in a rush and attention to details went by the wayside. That aside I'm redoing all the linkages (had metal clevis's on both sides), diging out excess hinge glue. Got a bad charge switch to replace and maybe a battery that's also new. One of the two are the problem. Battery is going dead way to fast so either a bad battery or switch not allowing the battery to charge properly. Not sure yet.
Will keep you posted on the maiden flight.. They say this Brillelli 46 gives 30lbs of thrust with a APC 22x8 so i'm wonder if anyone has tried a 22x8 carbon fiber prop? I have the extra funds to get one and any idea's on how much lighter a C/F prop would be over the APC? thanks

RVM

I dunno about 30lbs of thrust with any prop. Scott told me the best combo for the 46 was a Xoar or Menz S 22x8. The Xoar gives about 22lbs of thrust.

I wouldn't use an APC over 18" or so. Gets too heavy and inefficient. I'd try a few wood Xoars or Menz S props.

LookNatU2

My Feedback: (11)

Thought I read 30lbs somewhere. Guess I was wrong b/c I looked on Scott's site and it says 21lbs.. Anyhow anyone done any testing with C/F props on the 46cc?

Scott Ellingson

My Feedback: (146)

At one time I used Thrust HP to calculate thrust. That program said about 33lbs of thrust. I knocked a few pounds off and thought it would be fairly accrate. Once I started reading about how bad that program was I built a ball bearing slide test stand to get true thrust. That is when I realized just how bad that program is. True thrust is between 20 and 22 depending on the day with a 22x8 Xoar prop. The Xoar pulles better than the APC. It even our pulled a Mejzlik 22x8 carbon prop.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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It isn't the battery that would cause the issue. It is the wiring to the battery that would act as an antenna, enabling EMI that is generated by the ignition module to radiate into the nearby receiver. This is the same reason that we discourage the placement of servos close to the engine to make throttle linkages more convenient. The servo has no effect on the system, but the wires to the servo can provide a path into the receiver via the wires. Remember, it doesn't take much effort to get signals to radiate from wires. In fact, it is nearly impossible to prevent them from doing so. Fortunately, in most instances, the strength of the radiation is modest enough that unless the wires of the ignition module/battery are close to the wiring of the receiver, any wiring, not just the antenna, most times the receiver will not be degraded sufficiently to be problematic.

I am an RF technician by trade and training, by the way. Just in case you were wondering. <g>

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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Receivers, ALL receivers in modeldom consist of two major sections. The first is the actual receiver. The part that actually receives the signal that is radiated from your transmitter. This receiver is THE SAME for either FM/PPM or PCM "receivers". The second part of the "receiver" is the decoder. This is where the difference lies between FM/PPM and PCM. ALL of the RF processing occurs in the receiver, the part that is essentially the same in either PPM or PCM system "receivers".

The implications of performance built in to these two types of systems is simple. When your RF section passes along a weak or malformed signal chain of data, the FM system's decoder sends lots of erroneous pulses out to the servos. The result is servos that jiggle and move randomly.

When the same thing happens to the PCM "receiver", its decoder is unable to make any digital sense out of the scrambled codes, so it simply does not send a signal to the servos. The servos remain in their last position until the "fail safe" timer times out and then the servos are moved to preordained positions, if you went to the trouble of programming the system. These settings are stored in memory in the PCM receiver and are used when the Tx signal is no longer available in a coherent fashion. These settings permit you to "crash gracefully" - at least they do with most models. <G>

While you can set up a model to fly right off the bat with PCM, I feel it is better to eliminate all of the problems by using FM receivers. Why? Because it is easier to see when something is amiss. Neither system is "better" than the other at receiving the RF signal. Neither is worse, if all things are equal, such as number of conversion stages, quality of engineering, etc. Neither system is safer except in a situation where the PCM system has been programmed to crash with the power reduced to minimum. I happen to like the latter feature a lot, so I end up using PCM in my gassers after they are sorted out. But don't get the idea that the RF processing of a PCM receiver is superior to that of a PPM system. It may be, or it may not be. There are many factors involved which having nothing to do with which kind of decoder is being used.

Jake Ruddy

My Feedback: (40)

Fair enough... that makes more sense.

BUT (always a but )

If the battery is in the back of the fuse then its not going to be even close enough to the ign. to allow the wires to act as an antenna. Even if the switch is close to the ign. if there is another 24" or more to the actually battery and receiver I don't personally see that weak signal making it far enough to cause issues.

I have also seen servos within 6" of the engine (I dont personally do it.. I dont see the need or reason to take that chance) and it hasn't caused any issues. I could see that being more of a problem because it's close to the ign.

I just think if you have a loud ign. then you have to go to extreme measures to make sure everything is ok. I just don't believe this to be the norm.

tkg

My Feedback: (1)

Important point here, just because a battery is a DC device it doesn't mean that the load is. Most ignitions take a big gulp of battery just micro sec after the spark fires. This impresses a "noise" on the battery equal to engine rpm. A long ignition battery lead/switxh will radiate this noise to anything near by. Also a spark is made of an infinite number of harmonics. and all the spark energy ends up on the pos lead of the battery.