Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
#1
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Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
Well, all you Evolution Engine owners can thank my buddy and his 3 nearly lost fingers for the new warning addendum that Evolution is including with their new and "improved" ignition units that fire off a spark as soon as the ignition is turned on to "clean off the spark plug". He had sent the engine in for like the third time for various manufacturer defects, including blown out plug threads and, on the last time he sent it in, they sent him back a newfangled ignition with all sorts of useless features. They simply told him it was a improved design and that's it - no instructions. The first thing he found out is that it will not run for more than a few minutes on a 4-cell nicad/nimh - turns out they changed the minimum voltage to like 5.5 to 6 volts. Not having any instructions, how was he to know?
Then, while fiddling with the plane at his house, he turned the transmitter and plane on and then reached back to turn on the ignition...as he retracted his hand, the engine FIRED UP BACKWARDS and caught three of his fingers!!!!!!!
A trip to the emergency room and dozens of stitches and painkillers later, he contacted Horizon to ask why his engine fired as soon as he turned on the ignition and took out his fingers. First replies were something like a deer staring into headlights. Obviously, he informed them that they were about to have a major problem on their hands and better find out what is going on! He finally got an answer from someone that might have actually seen an engine before and they told him, "oh, yeah, those new ignitions spark as soon as you turn them on to, uh, clean off any gunk that might be on them so that the engine fires easier and quicker". My buddy's response was something to the effect of "well, it did more than that for me - my engine fired up and nearly severed three of my fingers!" Nowhere in the instructions (of which he had to get off their website because it wasn't included with his ignition) does it warn you of such a possibilty of the engine firing spontaniously. And, really, is it really necessary to have an unprovoked firing of the ignition just to clean the plug? No. At the very best, all that would do is make you have to flip the prop one less time before it fires, or in my buddy's case, not have to flip the prop at all!
Granted, his piston was just before TDC when he turned the ignition on, but he hadn't attempted to choke the engine or anything yet. He is also new to gassers, although he had a couple gallons through this engine and has been flying for several years, and probably hadn't thought to make sure his piston wasn't on the combustion stroke when he initially turned on the ignition, but really, no one can honestly say they do that as a regular practice when first turning on their plane. Sure, we tend to make a habbit of it when we are trying to start the engine and have just pulled fresh fuel through and are about to turn on the ignition and try to start the engine, at least I do. But I never thought about it when first turning a plane on.
Anyway, if you currently have one of these ignitions and did not receive the warning, you have it now...and you can thank my buddy who, incidentally has not filed a lawsuit, although I wouldn't blame him if he did, so it's free info!
Then, while fiddling with the plane at his house, he turned the transmitter and plane on and then reached back to turn on the ignition...as he retracted his hand, the engine FIRED UP BACKWARDS and caught three of his fingers!!!!!!!
A trip to the emergency room and dozens of stitches and painkillers later, he contacted Horizon to ask why his engine fired as soon as he turned on the ignition and took out his fingers. First replies were something like a deer staring into headlights. Obviously, he informed them that they were about to have a major problem on their hands and better find out what is going on! He finally got an answer from someone that might have actually seen an engine before and they told him, "oh, yeah, those new ignitions spark as soon as you turn them on to, uh, clean off any gunk that might be on them so that the engine fires easier and quicker". My buddy's response was something to the effect of "well, it did more than that for me - my engine fired up and nearly severed three of my fingers!" Nowhere in the instructions (of which he had to get off their website because it wasn't included with his ignition) does it warn you of such a possibilty of the engine firing spontaniously. And, really, is it really necessary to have an unprovoked firing of the ignition just to clean the plug? No. At the very best, all that would do is make you have to flip the prop one less time before it fires, or in my buddy's case, not have to flip the prop at all!
Granted, his piston was just before TDC when he turned the ignition on, but he hadn't attempted to choke the engine or anything yet. He is also new to gassers, although he had a couple gallons through this engine and has been flying for several years, and probably hadn't thought to make sure his piston wasn't on the combustion stroke when he initially turned on the ignition, but really, no one can honestly say they do that as a regular practice when first turning on their plane. Sure, we tend to make a habbit of it when we are trying to start the engine and have just pulled fresh fuel through and are about to turn on the ignition and try to start the engine, at least I do. But I never thought about it when first turning a plane on.
Anyway, if you currently have one of these ignitions and did not receive the warning, you have it now...and you can thank my buddy who, incidentally has not filed a lawsuit, although I wouldn't blame him if he did, so it's free info!
#2
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RE: Evolution takes pride in an ignition that fires as soon as it is turned on??
ORIGINAL: bodywerks
The first thing he found out is that it will not run for more than a few minutes on a 4-cell nicad/nimh - turns out they changed the minimum voltage to like 5.5 to 6 volts. Not having any instructions, how was he to know?
The first thing he found out is that it will not run for more than a few minutes on a 4-cell nicad/nimh - turns out they changed the minimum voltage to like 5.5 to 6 volts. Not having any instructions, how was he to know?
Yes, the GX2 ignition requires a minimum of 6.4 volts for proper operation.
#3
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RE: Evolution takes pride in an ignition that fires as soon as it is turned on??
That's great for people that have access to the internet. Why do you think my buddy asked me to mention this here? When he called them up about his engine not firing and they said it was due to their discovery of these ignitions not running at less than 6.4 volts, why didn't they point him to their website for further info or, since he doesn't often use the internet, tell him right there that, since he was obviuosly unaware of the voltage issue he must also not be aware of the spontaneous engine starting issue.
Also, I see no date on that product warning. According to my buddy, it is he who inspired them to put that warning out. This happened about 5-6 weeks ago, so what do you mean by "the longest time"? aren't the new ignitions only a few months old?
Also, I see no date on that product warning. According to my buddy, it is he who inspired them to put that warning out. This happened about 5-6 weeks ago, so what do you mean by "the longest time"? aren't the new ignitions only a few months old?
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RE: Evolution takes pride in an ignition that fires as soon as it is turned on??
That's a "feature" I can do without... an ignition that fires without the sensor being passed....
At first thought the idea seems like a neat way to keep the engine from flooding... but not with the addition of risk...
At first thought the idea seems like a neat way to keep the engine from flooding... but not with the addition of risk...
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RE: Evolution takes pride in an ignition that fires as soon as it is turned on??
I would love to meet the genious who thought of that idea... every setup I have ever used requires me to reach across the prop to turn on the ignition from the front of the plane.. How many people put their ignition switch so that after you have primed your engine you have to get back up and go to the side of your plane to turn on the ignition.
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RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
There are a lot more ignitions than you think out there that fire when turned on. Not a full second of sparks but a spark non the less.
#8
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RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
A large percentage of the ignitions we use fire immediately after they are powered up. Usually just once. Since I'm not an electronic guru type I'll leave the reason for this to someone that truly knows.
Aside from the fact that they will fire when initially charged, why do so many people fail to learn about what they have or treat a propeller like it will never bite? Anyone ever consider standing under the blade of a full scale propeller? A magneto equipped engine can fire at least once after it's stopped if the "p" lead is not grounded. That's not too bright either, is it?
As long as there are people that really believe that everything is simple plug and play there wil be people getting hurt. I feel for those that do, but they need to recognise that if they read the insrtuctions for what they have a very large percentage of them would never have had a problem. That may not be the case with the individual noted in the first post but all too frequently it is.
Aside from the fact that they will fire when initially charged, why do so many people fail to learn about what they have or treat a propeller like it will never bite? Anyone ever consider standing under the blade of a full scale propeller? A magneto equipped engine can fire at least once after it's stopped if the "p" lead is not grounded. That's not too bright either, is it?
As long as there are people that really believe that everything is simple plug and play there wil be people getting hurt. I feel for those that do, but they need to recognise that if they read the insrtuctions for what they have a very large percentage of them would never have had a problem. That may not be the case with the individual noted in the first post but all too frequently it is.
#11
RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
I doubt that the new Evolution ignition is an MSD type (Multiple Spark Discharge ) if it is -then these guys are waaaaaaay ahead of the pack.
Anyway - Plug n Play approach to flying is fast becoming the norm .
The old learned approach to small engines and then larger ones never happens and the results are often bad.
The prop arc is forbidden territory at any time . My own starting technique is just like cranking a model T (what is a model T?)
You never wrap fingers around the prop you push the blade down and a your hand comes forward a backfire causing a prop reversal can't hit you.
(On a Model T you pulled up with fingers only- never the thumb over the crank unless you fancy broken wrists).
Having had my share of sliced fingers from all sorts of engine encounters - over the years - The thing I finally learned was to avoid the prop -wear a glove if a tall possible and when in doubt - don't.
Anyway - Plug n Play approach to flying is fast becoming the norm .
The old learned approach to small engines and then larger ones never happens and the results are often bad.
The prop arc is forbidden territory at any time . My own starting technique is just like cranking a model T (what is a model T?)
You never wrap fingers around the prop you push the blade down and a your hand comes forward a backfire causing a prop reversal can't hit you.
(On a Model T you pulled up with fingers only- never the thumb over the crank unless you fancy broken wrists).
Having had my share of sliced fingers from all sorts of engine encounters - over the years - The thing I finally learned was to avoid the prop -wear a glove if a tall possible and when in doubt - don't.
#12
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RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
ORIGINAL: RTK
There are a lot more ignitions than you think out there that fire when turned on. Not a full second of sparks but a spark non the less.
There are a lot more ignitions than you think out there that fire when turned on. Not a full second of sparks but a spark non the less.
Dick, it is not an MSD-type ignition, but according to the description, fires multiple sparks for a full second as soon as you turn it on:
As quoted from their product warning...
"It has come to our attention that some users are not aware that when using the GT2/GX2 electronic ignition that it fires the spark plugs for 1 second to clear any unwanted oil or drainage from the spark plug prior to starting the engine."
Now, if the engine has been properly tuned and taken care of, there shouldn't be any "unwanted oil or drainage" to worry about. I just don't see how this "feature" saves a guy form any thing more than maybe a few extra flips before it starts, do you? And, if the plug is fouled, then it's fouled - no amount of spark, or lack thereof (fouled plug means no spark, right?), is going to help.
#13
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RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
but they need to recognise that if they read the insrtuctions for what they have a very large percentage of them would never have had a problem.
#14
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RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
If instructions are not includd then I have to completely agree with you. What happened is terrible for sure. I know we all feel for the person with the injury.
What Dick had to say about the prop arc and how to handle a prop is something that needs to be passed on to as many of the newbies out there as we can reach.
What Dick had to say about the prop arc and how to handle a prop is something that needs to be passed on to as many of the newbies out there as we can reach.
#15
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RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
Yeah, he had sent the engine in for the third time with problems and he ended up with that new ignition and no instructions...
I know, treat that prop like a loaded gun! I know that there was a hint of brain fart on my buddy's part here, but I am not sure I would have expected the engine to kick like that either! Fortunately for me, my only ignition switch is on my transmitter and I don't need to get anywhere near the prop to turn the plane on, and obviously never turn the plane on unless it is secure behind someone's feet or a restraint.
I know, treat that prop like a loaded gun! I know that there was a hint of brain fart on my buddy's part here, but I am not sure I would have expected the engine to kick like that either! Fortunately for me, my only ignition switch is on my transmitter and I don't need to get anywhere near the prop to turn the plane on, and obviously never turn the plane on unless it is secure behind someone's feet or a restraint.
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RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
The manufacturer calls this version of ignition........"ICU".
I wonder if they were thinking about the trip to the hospital.
I wonder if they were thinking about the trip to the hospital.
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RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
Just for reference this problem is the same for the MVVS supplied version, I have experienced 'firing' many times when turning on ECU and sometimes a loud backfire through the exhaust cannister...makes you jump the first couple of times [X(]
I now keep a firm hold of the prop when turning on untill it finishes sparking and also wear a sturdy glove....
Ian
I now keep a firm hold of the prop when turning on untill it finishes sparking and also wear a sturdy glove....
Ian
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RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
Prop+ignition= loaded gun.. Treat accordingly
By the way it doesn't happen very often but a warm glow engine can start with a flip WITHOUT the glow plug driver.
By the way it doesn't happen very often but a warm glow engine can start with a flip WITHOUT the glow plug driver.
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RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
I had a 58 gx2 and it scarred the he11 out of me the first couple of times it backfired when I turned it on.....almost bit me once. and then my starting procedure changed, from then on my helper would turn on the ign after choking.
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RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
An initial impulse at start up in an electronic circuit can usually be designed around with hardware or software. I wonder if any on the fellas on the DIY, open-source electronic ignition thread have the same problem with that design? Unfortunately, the designs, including software, of these commercial units are not readily available. Does anyone have access to the design of one of the problem units? It's a nice "feature" to know about. Thanks for sharing the experience.
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RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
Bigboat on the DIY thread (Engine Conversions) responded that the DIY ignition does NOT spark on power-up. According to Bigboat, a pulse from the Hall detector is required. Clearing the plug(s) seems like a lame reason. I would hope the manufacturers respond positively to address the matter. John
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RE: Evolution takes pride in ignitions that fire immediately on power-up??
I think this is an answer to a problem that does not exist.. A modern CDI will fire a plug that is dripping with oil.
In an engine that is running correct fuel mix a spark plug has a life span of several hundred hours
In an engine that is running correct fuel mix a spark plug has a life span of several hundred hours