bird-0f-prey

DA50 on 100:1 Amsoil would you could you !!!????!!!???

The reason i ask this question is im using the 100:1 Amsoil mix but mixing it 80:1 as per the manufacturer's manual.

After having a few problems with the engine i went to a flying buddies house and he went off his nana about me using the 100:1 on such a beautiful engine. I explained i was following the manufacturers instructions and he snarled his nose but helped me anyway. And said id never use anything under 40:1.....

I would love to hear some good/bad stories about using this oil and also what other people are using. Im not interested in i bought a new one yesterday id like to hear 3 years ago and im still...

Your comments will be muchly appreciated.

Kingsley

Any official word from DA on this matter?

BTW the engine is still running beautifully ive been using the oil mix for only 2 months.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

This subject has been kicked all over the world but it's always good for a full thread.

Personally, there is not an oil made that I would run at 100-1, regardless of the manufacturers statements. If the oil is that great, why don't all the full scale aircraft manufacturers, the FAA, and auto engine manufacturers recommend it, at any ratio? Is the manufacturer going to replace your plane or engine when the engine fails due to a siezed bearing or melted piston? I seriously doubt it. Is`the dealer rep for that product going to be there for you when the ca-ca hits the fan? You know he's not.

Most r/c engine manufacturers do not test their engines to destruction. Only a few more test their engines with run times in excess of a few hundred hours. You can be assured that an engine using a quality two stroke oil designed for air cooled engines, with ratios from 40 to 70-1 will last as long as you would desire if you don't crash it. 500 to 1,000 hours is not an unreasonable engine lifesapn before rebuild if they are kept clean and lubricated.

Oil serves three purposes in an engine, with a fourth as a side issue. The primary three are lubricating, cooling, and cleaning. The fourth is actually a by product of the mix ratio. Oil mixes actually lean the gas/air mixture, often changing a fuel/air ratio from the standard 14.7-1 to in the area 16-1.

bird-0f-prey

In the manual which i used as a reference point DA recomend as their no 1 oil (on the list) as 100-1 amsoil. I went to a great deal of trouble to get the oil.They do stand by their product for two years but i guess this is not a long time for an engine.

Why do different manufacturers only recomend certain oils and dont guaranteee their products if you move out side of these.

How can DA what id call one of the more respectable engine companies recomend this if its no good?

The guy that gave me this info suggested i use non synthetics as they provide more power? I understood it the other way? Why use nonsynths as runin and then go to synths?

Has anyone tried running their DA's or any other engine on 100-1 for a long period?

The realy confused

Kingsley

bird-0f-prey

btw im a newbie to gassers but im trying to learn

pe reivers

Model engines is a small nich market for manufacturers. They test their engines with products that either are available or seem to be suitable. Once the engine performs well, they recommend the oil they tested with. This does not mean there are no other oils that are suitable.
Synthetic oils are well known for their improved adhesion to metals, as well as the slipperiness of the film. In car engines you may get 10% milage improvement with synthetic oil. That also means more shaft power,
Synthetic oils tend to flash off suddenly when at elevated temperatures, where mineral oil decomposes, and still gives some protection. Vegetable oil like castor keeps on lubricating even beyond the range of mineral oil. If the engine is kept cool, there is no reason to use mineral oil for running in, and then switch to synthetics. Every switch in oil needs the engine to re-adjust, during which period the internal components are at risk due to the unknown oil compatibility issues.
Tests have been run comparing 100:1 oils with 50:1 oils. Regarding wear ratio, the 100:1 oils lost the battle. Regarding overall power output, the only oil I know of at 80:1 ratio in competition is Belray. Maybe someone can enlighten me on 100:1 use in competition.
Our model engines do not 100% compare to competition engines, because we use low rpm applications. That makes the engine run hotter, and thus we tend to supply too much fuel in order to keep the engine from sagging. Doing so supplies more oil as well, which feeds the controversy.

bird-0f-prey

from what your saying the engine wont last as long on 100-1 Jeez just makes you wonder why DA would even suggest it then????? Why not just say 50-1???

and the fact its their first in the list on the instructions. Maybe they have some sort of deal going with em.....

You would think it would be in their best interest to recomend the best oil after all they pay for repairs for the first two years

pe reivers

I did not say that. Read my post again!

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

I'm with Pe 100% on his views. I also don't believe for a moment that any engine manufacturer deliberately leads their customers astray. Simply put, they may not be performing oil testing when they are testing their engines. What they are interested in are engine performance levels, possible maintennance issues, parts reliability, and general lifespan. Testing the lubricity of the oil at a specific ratio is just not what they are in business to do.

There are quite a few people that visit this forum that have the opportunity to view the results of extended engine run times and are able to compare wear patterns developed over thousands of running hours with different oil types and ratios. Their business depends on the ability to keep the engines airborn and running safely and efficiently for long periods of time. There's a big difference in what they experience and what a manufacturer sees simply because those users place more time on engines than the manufacturers.

Most r/c engines run for 15 minutes or so at a time. It takes a whole bunch of 15 minute runs with teardowns in between to determine what will work best in the long run. A couple of people that you can trust to always steer you in the right direction in this forum are Pe Reivers and RC Bugman. They both put a lot of hours on engines and take the time to dissassemble them to examine the results of the products used.

bubbagates

My Feedback: (32)

didn't Giestware do this and post the results to his web site. He pretty much abused a 3W using different oil brands at different mixtures under pretty heavy prop loads with teardowns inbetween

Go to

http://www.geistware.com/rcmodeling/...test/index.htm

Geistware

My Feedback: (16)

I didn't do the test but Elson did the test and graciously allowed me to post his results.
I am/was an Amsoil distributor. Elson's test have convinced me to change oils I use in my engines.

Balsa Steel

My Feedback: (3)

To add to the debate, I was talking to Mike McMurtry about what he and Sean use. To my surprise, he said they were using Amsoil at 100:1, and had been for years. He said they've run several hundred gallons of the mix and never had any problems with it. He did say however, that they changed over to regular old Lawn Boy at 32:1 recently. The reason for the change was that the Walbro carb was designed to meter fuel with a heavier viscosity than the 100:1 mix yields. He said the 32:1 mix did help smooth the throttle transition.

Take that for what it's worth. I'm still one of those "more oil is better" guys.

rc bugman

My Feedback: (30)

Hi,

My test was far more abusive than the average modeler's flying. It was focused to answer my own questions since I fly for 30 min at a time at wide open throttle and pull very draggy loads with lots of propeller slippage. The engines really heat up. I posted the results to be of some use to the modeling community inspite of the "special circumstances" of the test. While this test provides more data than the average modeler, it was by no means conclusive on a scientific basis.

Personnally, I think the suggestions of Pat (Silversurfer) where he flies engines at partial throttle for 15+ hours is a better indication of engine wear for the modeler than the test I ran. However, both Pat and I have similar recommendations when it comes to oil. No thinner than 50:1, more oil = more power and there are a number of good oils both dino and synthetic. Most hobby engines try to dent mother earth ( and lose) before they are worn out and in many cases, the oil and mix ratio have no influence on engine longevity.

Elson

Josey Wales

My Feedback: (61)

After trying several mixes including 100:1 Ive settled on 50:1 BelRay MC-1

Andrew Bird

I'm running bel ray at 50:1 and it's great. I've done a lot of running on my DA50 - the majority 3d use where it has to work hard against the load of the airframe on an engel 24x8 prop. It always runs great, never cuts and just keeps coming back for more punishment!

JB Rekit

My Feedback: (3)

Well, since you went with DA I wouldn't worry too much about it. I don't like to think I do or would want anyone to take advantage of the their customer service, but they usually do take care of their products outside of the 2 yr warranty if it wasn't crashed or some kind of obvious consumer related cause. I've used 100:1 amsoil from the start and had my 150 on a heavy plane keeping the motor under more load. After 3.5 yrs, I sent it in between seasons just to have it checked out and I was planning on paying for anything they could see that needed to be fixed or replaced and they put new pistons and bearings in at no charge.

In my opinion, just do what DA says, don't worry about it, have fun and they'll take care of you.

JB Rekit

My Feedback: (3)

That obviously isn't the only time I've dealt with their customer service, just the most pertinent to your concerns and it has always been top notch.

A320driver

My Feedback: (1)

I have both a DA 100 (#160) and a DA150. I run both on 100:1 Amsoil in the Arizona heat with no problems.

DadsToysBG

My Feedback: (35)

I use Amsoil at 80:1. the label says 100:1 but on the back it has a chart to mix from 50:1 to 100:1. I split the difference and have had no trouble. All my engines are 3-W. I still fly a new engine on dino at 32:1 until I have got 3 to five gallons thru it. Dennis

mrbigg

My Feedback: (21)

How many gallons do you think you had in this motor that had the pistons replaced?

Steve

My Feedback: (54)

Is BelRay a synthetic oil?

Digger44

My Feedback: (4)

H1R is synthetic. Not sure about all their products though.

Steve

My Feedback: (54)

Thanks.

ncrego

My Feedback: (40)

I ran my DA50 on Amsoil at 80:1 (couldn't bring myself to use 100:1) for probably 10 gallons or so, and after picking up an Evolution 26GT that wouldn't work with the Amsoil, switched to Mobil MX2T at 32:1. I noticed that the throttle transition was smoother with the change too. My friends thought it was all in my mind, but it was noticeable because I was used to the way the plane was before. Maybe this explains why, it was the carb.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

For those that may have a complaint about "oil" stains on their planes with heavier ratios. That happens because the oil is performing a better job of cleaning the particles out of an engine than a leaner oil mix.

For those that have the ability and inclination to remove the heads from their engines after 20 hours of running or so here's something to look for. If the piston is showing signs of "scuffing" on one side or another, the oil is not doing a good job. Those that show no signs of scuffing after 20 hours or so are doing well. My experience to date has shown no visible signs of piston wear on engines with well over 200 hours of running time using Belray products at a 50-1 mix. There are quite a few other oils that will perform just as well at reasonable mix ratios. Some engines went to over 400 hours before being removed from service, but were still running strong when they were removed.

I used to believe in a leaner mix of 80-1 and up, but no more. 70-1 is as lean as I care to go now, and that will only be on cooler days for r/c. Warmer temps will equal more oil.

Something else to consider. Warm those engines up before going out and working them hard. A cold engine gets beat up pretty quickly in the winter time!

pe reivers

That is exactly what Redline says about their racing oils. Use them in mixes of 18:1 (karting) to 50:1 (MX), and as lean as 100:1 if the engine is designed for it.
A oil quality benchmark is the leanest mixture you can use without immediate harm to the engine. In this vieuw, amsoil 100:1 is a quality oil. The manufacturer says it is suitable for 50:1 up to 100:1 mixes. I would never take the leanest possible mix. Engines run on an oil film. Synthetics allow 100:1 because they build up on the metal surface due to their extremely high polarity, which makes the oil cling to metal. Yet more oil will expell waste producs much faster. This waste is something you do not want in your engine. It has to be purged, which only happens at higher oil content mixes. If purge cycles are slower, you need to rely heavily on evaporation, acid buffering (base number) and cleaning properties of your oil. In addition to that, no purge is ever completed, because the oil cannot scrub the surface. Old remnants still refuse to let go, again due to the high polarity.
edit:
This polarity leads to quite thick oil films, as can be seen of this picture. I pulled the jug, and ran a finger over the piston skirt just once to check the amount of oil present.