TailTouch

My Feedback: (54)

Nice !!!
American made motor for less than a chinese engine.
Although, the DL-50 owners are boasting of better RPM numbers than even a DA-50.

How about the 58cc...any price range.

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

Look closely, assembled in America...Like Toyota and others, many of the parts come from elsewhere..
Keith won't sell something that doesn't meet his quality standards, no worries...

BME

Silver I bet it will last longer than the German duration motors your using now. BTW we just saw Spiderman3 and my son is dying for Silversurfer to come out.

Keith

CrateCruncher

My Feedback: (1)

BME,
I like your premium/sport positioning for your 50's range. The markets now big enough for both and I am still scratching my head why Desert Aircraft didn't do it a year ago to protect their share from DL. Why billet though? Isn't that kinda $$$ for a value engine?

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

BME,

Were you able to make that call? It's pretty important if it's a direction you choose to take.

Re the other, you don't know how much I would like to see us make a change.

BME

Silver I promise to make the call. I have just been overwhelmed with testing and checking with suppliers about the mods we talked about. I do want to take the action and I do hope it works out. Crate,I wanted to build engines for the two out of three kinds of customers. One is the guy who wants the best he can buy regardless of cost. Two is the guy who wants the best bang for the buck and three is the guy who wants the cheapest thing he can possibly buy then buy again because the first one failed. I remember where I started 13 years ago and why. It was because the price of gasoline engines was rediculous in my opinion. I started building them for my own use and as other fellow modelers witnessed how good a chainsaw could be they started asking for them. One thing led to another until I was forced into submission to build high end twin cylinder engines. My passion has always been for the smaller less expensive singles. I mean if a weedeater costs 59.00 on sale why cant model engines less expensive. Yes I know the volume isnt there for mass production to lower the cost but it can be reduced. Our high quality low cost 50cc engine was conceived because of exactly what you mentioned. We need to protect our investments and manufacturing in the US is a dying business. Just look at what Walmart has done to US manufacturers. The reason for the machined crankcase is because its much stronger than cast, more precise and well pretty. I am sure you have heard of many Chinese engines that have broken the cast mounting ears on the crankcase. Machined is not that much more expensive than cast and look at the cast engine you will see that almost every surface and bore is machined anyway so the only savings is a minor amount of machine time and cost of raw aluminum. The bottom line is I wanted to offer something yet to be seen on Chinese engines at a price even the they cant argue with. Also we do the quality control and service work here in the US so every engine meets my quality standards meaning that I would not sell an enginethat I wouldnt put on my own airplane. Who services and offers tech support for Chinese engines? I am sure that I may get some flack for my comments but they are as I see them.

Keith
BME

CrateCruncher

My Feedback: (1)

BME,
The exotic, machined 7075 aluminum alloy case of the DA50 is far superior in terms of fracture toughness in a crash to ANY casting but is it worth the added manufacturing cost to the value conscious? (I'm assuming here your using 7075 also) Bent ears or broken ears still need to be fixed. An argument could be made for an easily replaced $15 sacrificial rear case casting that snaps on impact in a predictable manner saving more vital components from the shock of impact. A design that enhances manufacturing margins and adds customer value seems a win/win for everyone. On the other hand, the attractive, machined case does visually differentiate your product from the others in this price range...
Kind regards, Mike.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

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CrateCruncher

My Feedback: (1)

Sorry, my "." is a new offering with a thicker profit margin has a better chance of survival in an increasingly competitive product segment.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Everyone will be happy when manufacturers literally give the engines away. Then again, they may want the people getting the engines to buy their groceries for them. I don't think for a minute that the customers give a twit as to whether or not the manufacturer pays his bills or feeds his family as long as the customer can get something for nothing, or close to it. I'll say now what I retracted before. All this stuff about "helping" the manufacturers to be competitive in the market place is really only about one thing. Someone wanting a cheaper engine. Now for the kicker. If someone can't afford what they are doing and the price is too much of a burden then they should not be doing it. Trying to get someone to lower the price of a product to meet a lower income level IS NOT a good way to make money from a business stand point. That may hit a few people pretty hard but reducing some of this stuff down to the bottom line puts it all right where I've described it.

You can shave only so much from a piece of machinery before it breaks sooner than it should have. When it starts breaking and it's happening too soon then your customers send them back for warranty work. The manufacturer performs warranty work for free. That's like most people doing their 9 to 5 for nothing. Nobody wants to do that. Better to make it better the first time with better materials and NOT do warranty work. Make sense? Me thinks BME is doing the right thing with the case.

CrateCruncher

My Feedback: (1)

I'm glad Henry Ford didn't think like that! Remember the car called the "Tin Lizzy". How about Steve Jobs Ipod iterations... One doesn't often get the chance to design a new product from scratch so its important to consider all these things. My own view is that all products should become less expensive to produce with each generation and provide more benefits to the consumer. Seems a tall order but its done all the time. Thats how to widen margin and increase market share with new product offerings. Good discussion. Mike.

Jake Ruddy

My Feedback: (40)

Personally I would rather have something that takes a hit rather than break predictably.

However.. either way the prices of these engines is coming down dramactically and there really is only one reason for that.... everyone is sending the business overseas. There once was a time where people made a good product and stuck to their price because of what it cost to produce and the quality of it. Now we are slowly being flooded with products being made overseas simply because of our own greed. Personally I'll support what works for me and has been workig for me regardless of cost.

While this may ruffle some feathers... sometimes the truth hurts. I have been in and out of sales for 18 years and no matter what the product is whether it be a product or service... the people who beat you up the most for every last penny to get a good deal are always the worse customer. When something goes wrong they beat you up harder and meanwhile they took all your profit out in the first beating so when it comes to fixing the problem you start loosing money. Years ago I changed my tactics when it came to dealing with people like this... you can beat me up a little bit because I like to be fair.. however cross a line and I will send you elsewhere. I have never looked back and life is better with less headaches.

karolh

Boy oh boy this thread has gotten deep, but for real many truths are being brought out into the open. From where I stand on the outside looking in, hats off to BME for having the foresight and for taking the plunge to bring what I'm sure will be two excellent products to our hobby's marketplace.

Sure, everyone would like to have Porsche quality and performance, but many of us can only afford a Corolla. Thanks to BME for thinking of us Toyota fans.

Karol

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Two of you got the point. You can only go so cheap before something suffers. Knowing where that point is and not going below it is the difference. Competition can only so far before someone is paying the customer to take the product rather than buy it. Regarding the automobile comparison, if it wasn't for the government imposed tariffs, most imported Japanese cars would be quite a bit cheaper than the American ones.

Keith knows well how to make a durable engine, and to ask him to make one less so in order to lower the end price would be folly for him.

karolh

Amen to that.

Karol

BME

Its all about supply and demand. If the market is flooded the only thing to do is increase demand. Pricing is the number one way to increase demand but if your not making a profit why would you want to. In my opinion there are three way to market in the US.

1. Price
2. Performance
3. Service

Rarely can a manufacturer offer all three because it all goes back to the bottom line. Profit. It is not manufacturer greed sending business overseas. Its a matter of survival where they are forced to because of foreign competition. The said fact of manufacturing dying in the US is evident everywhere you look. I wish everyone would watch the show on PBS thats called Is Walmart Good For America? Its a real wake up call and down right hilarious how Walmart claims they are improving the economy. Take chainsaws for instance. I know for a fact that Echo looses money on every chanisaw they sell. Why? To gain market share. Money is made off the sale of parts. Profit margins are so low that they are satisfied with a 3.00 profit on the sale of an airfilter for the saw but multiply that by 250,000 per year. This may be a stupid business move on our part but I look at it this way. You need a bread and butter product that sales day in and day out. Then you can also offer a higher end product that has a better profit margin. Its unlikely that the two types of customers will cross those lines so offer something to both of them.

Keith
BME

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

RIGHT ON.....
In my case I bought a bunch of 25cc gasser short blocks for $10...It's not possible to compete with $250 Chinese 25s with my $400 G26s..I still have both, the $10 short blocks when converted will be sold for way less than the $250 Chinese engines...Same goes for ignitions, I can't even buy the parts to make one for what the whole thing costs from China....
Another factor is the dealers trying to keep their prices about the same as the other dealers...I got a PM from someone asking why sell an engine for $179, why not charge more so we can all make money...How come it's OK to undersell me for $150 but it's different when the shoe is on the other foot ? You know who you are
We're on an increasingly steep downhill, I feel sorry for my great grandchildren....

Jake Ruddy

My Feedback: (40)

Just to clarify.. I didn't refer to BME's greed being the reason for overseas.. I used the word "our" referring to the end user of the product demanding lower prices.

BME

Sinergy, I didnt take it the wrong way. I was just pointing out that all manufacturers in this country are forced to go to China. I cant even buy the aluminum material to build a pitts muffler for what I can buy an already built and welded pitts muffler for. If the hobby grows large enough all of these engines will become disposable like weedeaters are now. Ignitions are now disposable. Our 115 carburetors cost more than a new weedeater.


Keith
BME

CrateCruncher

My Feedback: (1)

BME,
As I mentioned above I think your Sport/Premium strategy is right on and one of the best I've heard so far. What about for the Premium model instead of just a higher performance why not make it more application specific? Most performance gassers are developed for 3-D applications but what about the scale guys who might pay more for less vibration and better cooling not to mention a shorter cylinder height. Twins with counter-rotating props anyone? What about helicopter applications? No one has done any of that to my knowledge. Using major component volume from Sport line you could offer several more expensive variants with specialized parts for these applications. The term "mass customization" could be used here. So it could be said: Price, Performance, Service, Differentiation!

Bass1

BME, How would your new 50cc engine compare as far as power to the Brison 3.2? (older blue case, mechanical advance).

bobkra

My Feedback: (13)

We do at DLUSA! Give us a call anytime at 972-869-9313 or email us at [email protected] for any questions you might have about the DL50 engine.

Bob

www.dlusa.net

BME

Why would I have any questions about a DA50 clone?

Keith

Kevin Greene

My Feedback: (85)

About the machined case---It does look pretty but does little else--We aren't dealing with engines that put out so much power (distortion) that we need stud girdles or anything else that increases crankcase strength....Take the Echo 44cc and 50cc blocks---Both are cast and both are bullet proof engines. I would be willing to bet that it is vastly easier for a small manufacturer to machine a case than to cast them...Only makes sense--How many small engine builders have foundries in their back yards???

Let me say that Keith's work is impeccable!!! Having owned a BME 44 I know first hand....I'm also glad that he is getting into the inexpensive 50cc market. Had he had this engine ready to go a month ago I would have seriously looked at this engine....

Kevin

CrateCruncher

My Feedback: (1)

Well I think those billet cases will become an expensive bottleneck if large volumes are the goal. Besides, those cast heads and other parts have to come from somewhere..

I agree with Surfers comment that a product can become too cheap for its own good (seems I must replace $9 hairdryers annually) but we're nowhere near that point in this industry. Also, the same line of reasoning could be made for weight savings but no ones going there. A 30cc chainsaw with warranty and a qt of oil costs $149 at the home center.

I think there's still room for the small guy through innovation. Many of these new 50's make gobs of power but can shake an ARF or fragile scale plane to death. Kinda silly for me to buy an engine because its 2 ounces lighter than another, only to add it back beefing up the firewall! Has anyone priced a Laser glow engine lately? They won't even discuss power output yet despite this, the high cost and the glow fuel mess, the serious scale guys keep buying 'em....