Canister mufflers for DA-100
05-07-2003, 07:41 PM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
I'm getting a DA-100 for my Composite-ARF Extra 330L, and I'm thinking about which exhaust system to use.
As I live in Denmark, Europe - where effective noise reduction is absolutely necessary - I will fit canister mufflers on the DA-100.
So my question is, which canister systems do you guys have the best experience with on the DA-100? I'm thinking both performance and noise reduction here... I have thought about the following alternatives, but if you have other suggestions please list them also:
KS 86 VS-4
MTW TD75
MTW TD75 K (the short version)
Pefa Duo 100 ("2 into 1")
I'm not sure if the standard MTW TD75 will fit into the Composite-ARF 330L since the floating spar might be in the way...
Also, I read here somewhere that the "2 into 1" system from Pefa is causing idle problems on the DA-100, and most people recommend the solution with two separate canisters...? It's funny because in the instruction manual for the Extra 330L, Composite-ARF actually recommends the Pefa "2 into 1" system for the DA-100. They even say that the throttle response will be fine and the mid range perfect. It seems to me that if you use the "2 into 1" system the header length will not be the same for both cylinders, and this could possibly be why the idle problem exists...?
Lastly, what should the header length be on these systems to maximize performance and running characteristics on the DA-100?
Thanks.
As I live in Denmark, Europe - where effective noise reduction is absolutely necessary - I will fit canister mufflers on the DA-100.
So my question is, which canister systems do you guys have the best experience with on the DA-100? I'm thinking both performance and noise reduction here... I have thought about the following alternatives, but if you have other suggestions please list them also:
KS 86 VS-4
MTW TD75
MTW TD75 K (the short version)
Pefa Duo 100 ("2 into 1")
I'm not sure if the standard MTW TD75 will fit into the Composite-ARF 330L since the floating spar might be in the way...
Also, I read here somewhere that the "2 into 1" system from Pefa is causing idle problems on the DA-100, and most people recommend the solution with two separate canisters...? It's funny because in the instruction manual for the Extra 330L, Composite-ARF actually recommends the Pefa "2 into 1" system for the DA-100. They even say that the throttle response will be fine and the mid range perfect. It seems to me that if you use the "2 into 1" system the header length will not be the same for both cylinders, and this could possibly be why the idle problem exists...?
Lastly, what should the header length be on these systems to maximize performance and running characteristics on the DA-100?
Thanks.
05-08-2003, 08:16 AM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
Hei Morten,
Avoid the problem. Get a 3W100 (or the newest 106) standard or QS version with the new patended 3W cannister mufflers (or use these cannsiters on the DA).
I have just test flown my 36% Extra with this setup and 3-blade propeller. I was amazed how quiet (and strong) it was. It was comparable with many quiet F3A models on the field.
best regards from Norge
Kato
Avoid the problem. Get a 3W100 (or the newest 106) standard or QS version with the new patended 3W cannister mufflers (or use these cannsiters on the DA).
I have just test flown my 36% Extra with this setup and 3-blade propeller. I was amazed how quiet (and strong) it was. It was comparable with many quiet F3A models on the field.
best regards from Norge
Kato
05-08-2003, 08:57 PM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
Hi Kato,
Well I was actually not going to begin an engine brand war here, but anyway since this is my first gas engine and nearly no one seems to have any problems with the DA's I went that route.
I heard a lot of good things about 3W, but also some less good things such as warping carb blocks and bad ignitions...
Well I chose the DA-100 and I'm sticking with it, so I hope we can get back to discussing the canister issue.
I had not heard about the new patented 3W canisters. Are they made by 3W or by Pefa?? And where can I find some specs on them such as size, weight and price...?
Are they the ones listed here:
http://www.aircraftinternational.com...w_canister.htm
Well I was actually not going to begin an engine brand war here, but anyway since this is my first gas engine and nearly no one seems to have any problems with the DA's I went that route.
I heard a lot of good things about 3W, but also some less good things such as warping carb blocks and bad ignitions...
Well I chose the DA-100 and I'm sticking with it, so I hope we can get back to discussing the canister issue.
I had not heard about the new patented 3W canisters. Are they made by 3W or by Pefa?? And where can I find some specs on them such as size, weight and price...?
Are they the ones listed here:
http://www.aircraftinternational.com...w_canister.htm
05-09-2003, 04:23 AM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
I have been running a DA 100 in my 35% Radiocraft Extra with KS cannisters for over a year now, no problems. Plenty of power and quiet. (my club has a 100 DB limit) Stay away from the 2 into 1 system, a friend tried it with the same motor, the idle was terrible!
As for header length, keep it short if you want to get the power, my headers come back about 6"
As for header length, keep it short if you want to get the power, my headers come back about 6"
05-09-2003, 05:47 AM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
Hi Mola,
The 3W cannisters are buildt by Pefa for 3W, but is a 3W design. Yes, you find them on Gerhard's webpage.
From Denmark I think you can buy directly from 3W Germany or you could contact Mr.Fossheim (www.3wnorge.com) which is the dealer in Norway.
The new cannisters are significantly quiter than the old ones and gives more rpm.
Kato
The 3W cannisters are buildt by Pefa for 3W, but is a 3W design. Yes, you find them on Gerhard's webpage.
From Denmark I think you can buy directly from 3W Germany or you could contact Mr.Fossheim (www.3wnorge.com) which is the dealer in Norway.
The new cannisters are significantly quiter than the old ones and gives more rpm.
Kato
05-09-2003, 05:51 AM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
Hi A320driver,
Here in Europe we have to be close to 90 dB at 3 meters (118'') to be concidered to have an low noise airplane. That is a huge difference to 100 dB.
Kato
Here in Europe we have to be close to 90 dB at 3 meters (118'') to be concidered to have an low noise airplane. That is a huge difference to 100 dB.
Kato
05-09-2003, 12:44 PM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
Hi Kato,
I said my club has a 100 db limit, I didn't say that I was at 100 db's! I was measured at my club at less than 6 feet, my set up came in at 97 db. I was turning a Menz 28x10, not the quietest prop in the world to start with. Put a 3 blade prop on and I'm sure you would be close to 90 db at 3m. I have lived and flown in Europe and I am only to well aware of the noise restrictions you guys have to live with. By the way not all of us over here in the USA , including those who have never been to your side of the pond, are completely ignorant of the metric system.
I said my club has a 100 db limit, I didn't say that I was at 100 db's! I was measured at my club at less than 6 feet, my set up came in at 97 db. I was turning a Menz 28x10, not the quietest prop in the world to start with. Put a 3 blade prop on and I'm sure you would be close to 90 db at 3m. I have lived and flown in Europe and I am only to well aware of the noise restrictions you guys have to live with. By the way not all of us over here in the USA , including those who have never been to your side of the pond, are completely ignorant of the metric system.
05-09-2003, 12:51 PM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
Very good thread, I hope we get some good info.
A320:
I have spoken to DA about the KS cannisters and they recommended a header leangth of 10-12". Why do you use a header length of 6"? How well does it run?
My uneducated thought would be that a longer system would reduce noise more, any thoughts?
Thanks
A320:
I have spoken to DA about the KS cannisters and they recommended a header leangth of 10-12". Why do you use a header length of 6"? How well does it run?
My uneducated thought would be that a longer system would reduce noise more, any thoughts?
Thanks
05-09-2003, 02:39 PM
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header length
Here are a few web pages that can help answer your questions about tuned systems.
A longer header will give a broader power curve. A shorter header will give more peak power.
http://www.shark-racing.com/Ingles/T...Projetoing.htm
http://www.shark-racing.com/java/javapipe.htm
http://www.hpt-sport.com/tunedpip.htm
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2p5sj/engine.htm
http://www.macdizzy.com/2stroke.htm
Brian
A longer header will give a broader power curve. A shorter header will give more peak power.
http://www.shark-racing.com/Ingles/T...Projetoing.htm
http://www.shark-racing.com/java/javapipe.htm
http://www.hpt-sport.com/tunedpip.htm
http://members.bellatlantic.net/~vze2p5sj/engine.htm
http://www.macdizzy.com/2stroke.htm
Brian
05-09-2003, 02:50 PM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
Summary
Header
> diameter > power narrower power band
< diameter < power broader power band
> length < power broader power band
< length > power narrower power band
Divergent cone
> angle > more intense negative wave < duration
< angle < less intense negative wave > duration
Belly > length < power broader power band
< length >power narrower power band
Convergent cone
> angle > more intense positive wave < duration
Stinger > diameter < counter pressure < engine heat
< diameter > counter pressure > engine heat
Note1: From 6 to 8 times the header diameter for maximum power and till 11 time to a broad power curve, measured from the piston face at the exhaust port.
Header
> diameter > power narrower power band
< diameter < power broader power band
> length < power broader power band
< length > power narrower power band
Divergent cone
> angle > more intense negative wave < duration
< angle < less intense negative wave > duration
Belly > length < power broader power band
< length >power narrower power band
Convergent cone
> angle > more intense positive wave < duration
Stinger > diameter < counter pressure < engine heat
< diameter > counter pressure > engine heat
Note1: From 6 to 8 times the header diameter for maximum power and till 11 time to a broad power curve, measured from the piston face at the exhaust port.
05-09-2003, 03:05 PM
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From the horses mouth...
Well I asked the same questions to DA and got the following answer from Dave Johnson:
**************************************************
We have not been happy with the 2 into 1 PEFA system. The rpm oscillates at low throttle and the mid range can be unpredictable. PEFA now offers a 2 into 2 system that works well.
MTW also has a new shorter/wider system that will just fit ahead of the blade spar in the Extra. Peter Wessels is using this set up in Germany with good results. I am not sure of the model# but MTW or Exclusiv Modellbau should be able to help you. It may be the TD75 K. The long narrow muffler is too long the Extra.
The KS 86 is a good system, but it likes a longer header which is too long for the Extra.
With any of these systems, you will want to use as long of a header pipe as possible so that the muffler just misses the spar. Short headers with a large prop = a hot/unhappy engine. Keeping the headers long will also give better throttle transition.
I would take a look at the MTW. The power is very good and I believe the throttle curve is as good as the PEFA 2 into 2.
**************************************************
This was just the kind of answer I was hoping for. I have now contacted MTW via e-mail and asked them which system they sold to Peter Wessels.
I will let you guys know what I find out!
**************************************************
We have not been happy with the 2 into 1 PEFA system. The rpm oscillates at low throttle and the mid range can be unpredictable. PEFA now offers a 2 into 2 system that works well.
MTW also has a new shorter/wider system that will just fit ahead of the blade spar in the Extra. Peter Wessels is using this set up in Germany with good results. I am not sure of the model# but MTW or Exclusiv Modellbau should be able to help you. It may be the TD75 K. The long narrow muffler is too long the Extra.
The KS 86 is a good system, but it likes a longer header which is too long for the Extra.
With any of these systems, you will want to use as long of a header pipe as possible so that the muffler just misses the spar. Short headers with a large prop = a hot/unhappy engine. Keeping the headers long will also give better throttle transition.
I would take a look at the MTW. The power is very good and I believe the throttle curve is as good as the PEFA 2 into 2.
**************************************************
This was just the kind of answer I was hoping for. I have now contacted MTW via e-mail and asked them which system they sold to Peter Wessels.
I will let you guys know what I find out!
05-09-2003, 05:45 PM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
For the past year, I have been flying a DA-100 on my RadioCraft Extra. I assembled (not necessary now that DA is making them) flexible headers with a 12" length. The cans are KS. With an Air Models 26x12 3-blade prop, this is one of the quietest setups I have ever seen. I fly in lots of IMAC contests, and without a doubt, this is the most quiet DA-100 I have come across. This system had plenty of power to fly last years' Unlimited sequence.
Stay away from the PEFA 2-into-1. One of my local IMAC buddies had that in a 35% Edge last year. The idle surges alot right after the engine is started. It settles down a bit after it warms up, but it was never as smooth as my KS system.
Don't know how the KS will fit into the Composite-Arf Extra. But there is no doubt that you can have a powerful, quiet system with the KS cans.
Ken
Stay away from the PEFA 2-into-1. One of my local IMAC buddies had that in a 35% Edge last year. The idle surges alot right after the engine is started. It settles down a bit after it warms up, but it was never as smooth as my KS system.
Don't know how the KS will fit into the Composite-Arf Extra. But there is no doubt that you can have a powerful, quiet system with the KS cans.
Ken
05-09-2003, 06:01 PM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
Originally I had fairly long headers, some where about 10 to 12 inches long. The motor was unbelievably quiet and the power band was very smooth , but the power was down from standard cans. With the new short headers the power is back with a bang!
Not as quiet as it used to be and the power is mostly at the top end, re-programing the throttle curve on the radio takes care of most of that.
Not as quiet as it used to be and the power is mostly at the top end, re-programing the throttle curve on the radio takes care of most of that.
05-10-2003, 07:33 PM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
with the flex headers it would be possible to put the cannisters underneath the plane perhaps. Then they could be long and no inside engineering would be required and they would keep cool.
05-10-2003, 09:53 PM
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MTW canisters
Hi,
Just got an e-mail from MTW. The system they sold to Peter Wessels was indeed the TD 75 K canisters (the short ones), with matching headers. This was used in the Composite-ARF/FC Extra 330L 2.6m.
I will order this system.
Once I receive it I will post some pictures...
Just got an e-mail from MTW. The system they sold to Peter Wessels was indeed the TD 75 K canisters (the short ones), with matching headers. This was used in the Composite-ARF/FC Extra 330L 2.6m.
I will order this system.
Once I receive it I will post some pictures...
05-11-2003, 12:57 AM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
Morten,
The website lists the long and short systems as being the same diameter. I wonder if they are the same diameter or if the "K" is a larger diameter?
I think the KS 86 would work if the headers were crossed to give more length.
Brian
The website lists the long and short systems as being the same diameter. I wonder if they are the same diameter or if the "K" is a larger diameter?
I think the KS 86 would work if the headers were crossed to give more length.
Brian
05-11-2003, 06:11 AM
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MTW TD 75 K
Yes, I'm also wondering if the MTW TD 75 K is not larger in diameter... Anyway I will find out within a week or so, since that was the delivery time 
Regarding crossing of the headers... Aren't we dangerously moving away from the KISS principle if doing that........?
If you would like to use the KS cans I would think the KS94VS would be a better choice. Like this gentleman is doing in his Hangar 9 Cap 232:
http://members.cox.net/brbrackney/pr...ap/CapCans.htm
The KS94VS cans were designed for the ZDZ-80RV, but should work fine with the DA-100 also. There should be no shortage of volume here...
Regarding crossing of the headers... Aren't we dangerously moving away from the KISS principle if doing that........?
If you would like to use the KS cans I would think the KS94VS would be a better choice. Like this gentleman is doing in his Hangar 9 Cap 232:
http://members.cox.net/brbrackney/pr...ap/CapCans.htm
The KS94VS cans were designed for the ZDZ-80RV, but should work fine with the DA-100 also. There should be no shortage of volume here...
05-13-2003, 08:58 PM
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TD 75 k diameter
Hi,
Well I asked Volker Weiershäuser (the guy behind MTW), and the TD 75 K can actually has a diameter of 70mm, this means the 55mm listed on their web-site is wrong...
Will post some pictures as soon as I receive them.
Well I asked Volker Weiershäuser (the guy behind MTW), and the TD 75 K can actually has a diameter of 70mm, this means the 55mm listed on their web-site is wrong...
Will post some pictures as soon as I receive them.
05-13-2003, 09:36 PM
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Canister mufflers for DA-100
Mola,
Will you drill two 3" holes in the plane or drill two smaller (approx. 1 1/2") holes for the Canister inlets and two for the outlets? I would be concerned about weakening the bottom of the firewall mount.The scale exit is near the rear of the cowl. It may be best to attach the headers to the cans, feed them through the upper holes and drop the stacks down the lower holes.
I am considering doing this myself with the KS 86 VS-4.
What do you think?
Brian
Will you drill two 3" holes in the plane or drill two smaller (approx. 1 1/2") holes for the Canister inlets and two for the outlets? I would be concerned about weakening the bottom of the firewall mount.The scale exit is near the rear of the cowl. It may be best to attach the headers to the cans, feed them through the upper holes and drop the stacks down the lower holes.
I am considering doing this myself with the KS 86 VS-4.
What do you think?
Brian
05-19-2003, 08:42 PM
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MTW TD 75 K cans...
Hi,
Well I received the MTW TD 75 K pipes today, and they are very nice! They are light yet sturdy. But compared to my pattern stuff they are a little big...
As promised I will post some pics of the pipes and headers.
Well I received the MTW TD 75 K pipes today, and they are very nice! They are light yet sturdy. But compared to my pattern stuff they are a little big...
As promised I will post some pics of the pipes and headers.