BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

(Dammit. RCU timed out on my reply, I will try it again.)

First, the HB is a great engine. I have one that is about 30 years old. Great power for its light weight.

Second, the FTC is pretty clear on this issue. The issue is about "Value Added", i.e. where is most of the "value" created?

One example is a ring made of $100 worth of foreign gold and containing a $300 foreign diamond. If the jeweler pours the gold into a mold, adds the diamond, and sells the whole thing for $600 it probably can't claim the "Made in the USA" designation.

If on the other hand the jeweler takes the same foreign gold and diamond, spends a lot of time adding significant detailing, etc, and sells the ring for $2000, then it definitely CAN claim to be "Made in the USA".

If a generic engine company (made-up numbers, so invent your own engine company name) contracts out foreign cylinders (wholesale cost $40) and foreign ignitions (wholesale cost $50), buys Japanese bearings ($15 wholesale) and foreign carbs ($15), but makes cranks, pistons, rings, crankcases and provides assembly in-house and sells the whole thing for $600, then the total amount of domestic "value" added to the whole thing as a percentage of the final "value" is enough that a majority of the "value" is added domestically. That can be considered "Made in the USA".

Here is another thing to contemplate. My Honda was made (mostly) in America, but my Chrysler was not.

thevirginian

Can we still consider the DA being a truely "Made in America" product, even though the carb is made in Japan and the ignition is made in Australia? After watching that video (rather disapointing, to be honest) I noticed only one CNC that was machining something. I don't think that's where they make the entire cranks. A crank shaft milling machine looks and works differently. But anyway, where are all the castings come from? I don't think we can consider a DA a true American built product. I sure don't have problem with that.

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

Sorry, I don't have any actual information about that. All of my numbers were completely hypothetical. Perhaps I should have used a different example than an engine.

However can you imagine what it would cost to run a shop capable of machining, casting, etc a complete engine? It would be wise to sub out as many pieces as possible, or else operate as a job shop for others and make engines on the side as time allows almost as a side "hobby".

For what it is worth can we consider the Harley Davidson V-Rod to be "American Made" if it uses Japanese shocks, forks and starter, a German engine, etc?

How about the Chevy Duramax truck with an Isuzu engine?

I guarantee each of those companies know just exactly how much of the ifnal product must be made here to be considered "American" in this global economy.

flaminheli

If it is not 100% forged or cast and assembled here in the US then it should not be considered American made. Legally it can, but for arguments sake it should not be. So everyone on the DA bandwagon show hard proof that it is all 100% American made or back down I am not talking about from a legal standpoint but more less an ethical standpoint.

kregan

Don't forget those evil DA guys probably recycle the machined
off aluminum so I bet its more like $35 [sm=bananahead.gif]

kregan

BTW,

I have not seen DA asking for any of our tax money lately. Maybe they should
model the business after Ford, Chrysler and GM and go for a nice bonus in 2009
for doing such a good job!

Eagleburger

The alloy component is probably small compared to bearings, piston, crank and ignition.

No one is condemning DA for making a profit, especially me. Dunno how you guys are getting that idea. IMO money spent on a DA is money well spent.

flatspinjim

My Feedback: (3)

I've been trying to stay out of this, but it's called free enterprise and supply and demand. That's something this country was founded on! That being said, I don't own a DA, but do own a DL but that's one of my freedoms is being able to buy which ever product I want.

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

Where has it ever been stated by DA that a DA engine was 100% American Made? To take your logic to an extreme, to be completely American Made, the various aluminum and steel parts would have to be made from ore mined in the USA. Refined, alloyed, cast or forged here in the USA. Come on ..... be realistic.

cjd

Wouldnt all the workers have to be americans too?

Truckracer

My Feedback: (19)

Sorry, didn't think about that! Everybody in the picture at the DA website looks American though. [8D]

Kevin Y

My Feedback: (8)

I personally have a couple problems with this statement. The key word in your statement above is ASSUMED, that is your assumption and in reality that is pretty unreasonable. Your example of Chevy is interesting because Chevy also says the Corvette made in the U.S.A., yeah it is assembled here but I bet there might be one or two parts that are not from the U.S.. That does not mean that its not an awesome car. Same with BMW, it's a German Company and they advertise that their X5 is made in the U.S.A. because it is assembled in South Carolina.

I used to work for Desert Aircraft and I truely believe in the products they produce and all the hard work that goes into them. In the time I worked for DA I do not ever remember any employee saying that every part of the engines were made in the U.S. What we did say is the Engines are designed in the U.S., the cases are made in the U.S., the cranks are made in the U.S., the ignitions are made in Australia by Desert Aircraft Australia, The original reed cages on the 150 and 100 were made in Italy (the newer one are made in the U.S.), the cylinders were made in the U.S. but are nickel coated outside the U.S., the gaskets are made in the U.S., the NGK spark plugs say they are made in the U.S., we never said we made the walbro carbs, or the prop bolts (the prop bolts do come from a U.S. supplier though). To produce the best engine possible DA decided to get the best parts available and if that meant getting a carb from a Japanese company then thats what it takes.

The point is we live in a global economy and that is something that we have to get used to. It is pretty unreasonable to expect any item with so many parts to be fully produced in one place, or in this case one country. You may want to consider that just because DL are assembled in China it does not mean that there engines are made of all Chinese parts either, same with 3W, ZDZ, and any other brand that you can think of.

Now my assuption is that most people will say that an engine that is researched, designed, built, and the majority of its parts are produced in the U.S.A. may find it ok to say that is made in the U.S.A., just like a Corvette. DL is certainly going to go to the cheapest supplier they can get and they are not going to limit themselves to only Chinese companies and that does not make them a bad company. It takes a lot of work to come up with a design like a that works so well but its pretty easy to copy someone elses work.

One thing I can tell you is there is a lot of blood, sweat, and tears that go into making a quality product like a DA. For those of you that believe that there is only $50-$75 that goes into an engine like a DA, I can tell you that the bearings alone in a DA cost almost more then that. What you get when you buy a DA is an engine that is a work of art, extremely reliable, makes a ton of power, is made of all quality parts that have to meet extremely high standards, with service and support that is second to none in the r/c industry. If you can think of any company in any industry that supports there products like DA does that is pretty amazing.

JBanks523

My Feedback: (17)

The part that I like is that companies based here in the U.S. provide jobs to american people, a very important aspect to our economy. Dave seems to employ quite a healthy staff at his facility that assembles his motors and takes care of his customers. I would rather support that business and help american keep their jobs here in the states. If you want to spend less, or cant spend more, buy what you can. Thats your choice.

By your definition of "american made", I dont think youll find too many things here in the states that are american made anymore. You are trying to make a point, but its coming off more like a cop out siting useless rhetoric to support you point (ie the bolts arent made here so its not american!!!). Fact of the matter is, the production of those motors here in the states produces more american jobs than simply an engine retailer. Another major engine distributor here in the states runs solely on one employee, and he carries a vast amount of other products and 5 times the amount of engine displacements as well and sells a tremendous amount of products as well. A perfect example of how that american-produced/made/assembled/conjured/created/spontaneously assembled/miraculously appeared product assisted in supporting the U.S. economy. At the same time, when you break both of them (DA vs DL) down, side by side, you will clearly see the difference in paying those american wages versus the others. Vast quality differences when you pay the american employees to monitor the QC and assemble the motors. There is another thread right here on RCU breaking the two down side by side. Take a look at that one and then let us know if you still feel skimping on a $150 bucks was worth it after 30 gallons of fuel...

JBanks523

My Feedback: (17)

CNC machines tend not to run all day... only when needed. Cranks are machined on a lathe in a lot of cases and often in multiple parts that are then pressed to together... in the video, two of the machines you saw running, one machine you were looking at running, is a lathe and the other a CNC based router. I think they have the bases covered....

JBanks523

My Feedback: (17)

Check this thread out if you make the assumption that "there should not be a huge difference between a DA and a DL if DA is not 100% produced here as stated in your above quoted post... (Actually go through a few pages in the thread and look at the complete tear-down.... it might make you re-think some of you very assumptive posts about "being the same..." http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_69.../anchor/tm.htm

As for the weedeater motor costing more than a re-man small block chevy, where you think those weedeater motors are coming from? I guess in that case the chinese are expensive using your example....

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Good to have you with us Kevin. Better still to have been provided your experience.

I only have one DA engine, but from other experienes with them I know they have the highest quality of most any engine on the market. The only ones in the same class are ZDZ and MVVS. If you wanted to step up to real big engines then Herbrandson's join that club. Since most never get to that point they generally aren't mentioned.

You do get what you pay for with DA. Nobody, but nobody, provides that kind of customer support with an engine. It does cost money so you just pay a little extra up front for it.

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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There's nothing worse than a substantial sub genius trying to get shrewd in order to better deal with various businesses. They should stay busy doing what they do best, procreating and consuming. Leave the business worries to the business folks.

It doesn't matter what something costs to produce, if the person selling it won't sell it for what you want to pay. Everyone is in business to make money. If they do not, they are not in business very long.


Ed Cregger

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

For what it is worth, a human body is made from on average 200 - 350 gallons of water and about $150 worth of chemicals. Does that mean a human body should only be "worth" a few hundred bucks?

By corrolary, would it be possible to take these few hundred bucks worth of chemicals, mix them together, and create a human being in a lab? What would that technology be worth? This technology would likely be worth trillions of dollars, if not more.
This is by definition "adding value".

Besides, making humans the old-fashioned way is so much more fun...

JNorton

My Feedback: (2)

All this chaff about made in the USA and manufacturing costs could have been avoided if the title simply said I have a DL (or another brand motor) why is the DA more. IMO that what the post was about. Those of us in manufacturing realise ->
1. It's a world market.
2. If you make 5% profit after all expenses are paid you are ahead of the game.
3. If you do not make a profit or have a cushion to survive economic downturns you won't be in business very long.
End of story.
John

BTerry

My Feedback: (8)

Exactly correct. Further, a 5% profit is OK if the volume is high enough (eg 5% profit on $25M worth of annual business for a small/medium size company).

If you are making 5% annually on a $300k investment, that is $15,000. One would be better off simply investing that $300k in some sort of investment vehicle at 5% and avoiding the headache of running a business altogether.

arobatx

....Im still thinking about procreation Bterry....lol

thevirginian

jbanks
If a CNC or any other machinery equipment is not running all day it is not productive for a manufacturer. Only if the produce the investment cost of such machines are being paid off. I used to work for a company that manufactured crank shaft milling machines. We test milled hundreds of cranks before one of thoese machines were approved by the customer. Cranks are milled not turned in a lathe. But anyway, what I tried to make apoint of was that I expected more than a garage type manufacturing facility. I have no clue how many units DA is producing each day or each month, but in a small shop like that it can't be that many. I do understand why a DA motor costs what it needs to cost.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

If you're making what you need you won't keep a machine running full time. You don't stock more inventory than you expect to sell, nor do you buy more raw materials than you plane to use. That's the way it works at our shop anyway. When the production run is complete the machine shuts down until it's needed again. The person performing the task then moves to another area pf production or service work. Small shops hire people that are multi talented and use them accordingly. Only large shops hire people limted to one area of production.

I don't believe that video exhibited the entire scope of DA's manufacturing operations by a long shot. Who knows, they could have a satellite operation somewhere other than the office in the video.

CJW123

Somebody tell me how a crank is milled.....Ever look at a two stroke crank ?
Which part was in a milling machine ?

NM2K

My Feedback: (14)

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As an outside salesman, I used to make 20% from everything I sold. These were good sized orders ($). Sometimes I made more money than the business owner that I was selling for.


Ed Cregger