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  1. #1601

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    Hi all,
    I have been reading this thread and it mirrors my experiences with both the FG20/21 where I have been unable to get either to run really well, and just get frustrated with the unpredictability of it/ them. My FG20 had 2 new carbs and 3 ignition units, all replaced under warranty. My experience with the FG21 has been largely the same - it will run fine on the test bench but up in the air (no cowl) it is really rough and usually ends of quitting. No matter what I seem to do with either the LS of the HS it makes no difference. Indeed on the ground, therre are times when no amount of adjustment of the carb changes the revs one iota. I had thought that it was dirt in the carb perhaps - but no this is clean. After countless efforts and so may dead sticks I gave up and bought a Mintor 22cc - so easy in comparison!

    More recently one of my FG30's stopped working - I found that the ignition unit had failed ..I then experimented with a RCEXL unit and could not get this to work at all. OK so the RCEXL is a hall sensor whereas the Saito unit worked as an induction unit with auto advance. But no matter where I put the sensor I did not get the engine to fire properly - the best being a gentle phutt phutt. After two hours of little result for my efforts I gave up. In that time I had tested the spark plug out of the engine so I could see the spark etc etc. But what really finished me off was trying to get the spark plug back out of the cap - bad enough when the plug is in the cylinder, because with the Saito cooling finsso close to the cap it is soo hard to twist and turn. Perhaps my technique is all wrong???

    Anyway I have now got it running sweetly using Runtronic unit - so easy to get the cap on and off for a start! The nice thing about the Runtronic is that it is much cheaper and smaller than the Saito and has automatic advance. So far so good.

    One day I may have another go at the FG21, but for the moment it is back in its box...

  2. #1602

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    I started this post and come back to it from time to time just to laugh and wonder why you guys are even messing with this engine. I have installed two dle 20cc engines in my aircrafts and the oddest thing has happen. They work. You just start them and fly. They dont need any tuning once set and the never die in the air or anywhere else. Can you all believe this. : )

  3. #1603

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21


    ORIGINAL: Saillfish

    I started this post and come back to it from time to time just to laugh and wonder why you guys are even messing with this engine. I have installed two dle 20cc engines in my aircrafts and the oddest thing has happen. They work. You just start them and fly. They dont need any tuning once set and the never die in the air or anywhere else. Can you all believe this. : )

    I come to this thread because it is about the SAITO FG20 and not the DLE20.
    WACO Brotherhood # 87
    Carl Goldberg Ultimate 10-300 Brotherhood # 61
    SAITO MEMBER # 406

  4. #1604

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21


    ORIGINAL: Garthwood


    ORIGINAL: Saillfish

    I started this post and come back to it from time to time just to laugh and wonder why you guys are even messing with this engine. I have installed two dle 20cc engines in my aircrafts and the oddest thing has happen. They work. You just start them and fly. They dont need any tuning once set and the never die in the air or anywhere else. Can you all believe this. : )

    I come to this thread because it is about the SAITO FG20 and not the DLE20.
    Yeah I know. I offered more valuable advise on the saito FG 20 and 21. Did you not get it

  5. #1605

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21


    ORIGINAL: Saillfish


    ORIGINAL: Garthwood


    ORIGINAL: Saillfish

    I started this post and come back to it from time to time just to laugh and wonder why you guys are even messing with this engine. I have installed two dle 20cc engines in my aircrafts and the oddest thing has happen. They work. You just start them and fly. They dont need any tuning once set and the never die in the air or anywhere else. Can you all believe this. : )

    I come to this thread because it is about the SAITO FG20 and not the DLE20.
    Yeah I know. I offered more valuable advise on the saito FG 20 and 21. Did you not get it

    Not sure. Do you remember the page ?
    WACO Brotherhood # 87
    Carl Goldberg Ultimate 10-300 Brotherhood # 61
    SAITO MEMBER # 406

  6. #1606

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    The valuable information he posted was that there are far better alternatives than this engine.

    Pretty relevant in this thread as people that are interested in the engine are likely to come here looking for information.

    I am always amazed at the vehement defenders of this thing.

    There are a lot of people just like me that have a $500 door stop sitting around in their shop.

    I only stay subscribed to this thread to see who comes up with the next fix for it and if it's worth throwing another penny at this thing.

    The engine is worthless to me other than as a reminder to always do my research before I buy.

  7. #1607

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    Hi Guys,

    Nice to se some names I...grew up with Saillfish, Timbers and W8YE, that I remember from back in 2009 on the FG20 thread.
    My FG20 runed fine even thow was the first version, before the doted carb. But talking about how it can be improved we talk back then a lot of things,
    replace the carb with WT-456-1, or Zama C1Q-P8 .I tried both and they are both direct replacements betwen them, the accelerator pump on them makes
    a nice feature.
    I used this carbs on FA120 , Fa120S,FA125, FA150, FA180, FG 20, and FG30.
    If any of you tied of this engine FG21, and is willing to send it in to me to have a look at it and see what can be done...I will be willing to give it a try.
    I think my stuff for FG20 will also work on the FG21 ...but I have to try it and good part about it is that it can be reverted back to original by replacing the intake mnfl.with a new one from HH or other place and
    no one will know the difference.
    Here is a FG30 from Norway.
    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZOgY3fTWrc&feature=player_detailpage[/youtube]
    Adrian
    www.ch-ignitions.com

  8. #1608

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    I've been running the FG-14 (100hrs) and FG-20 (50hrs) with no problems. I had some initial problems sourcing a part for the FG-14 after a crash and with fueling for the FG-20 when I first set it up. I've also got the RCGF 2-stroke 20cc and 26cc, but don't like the noise or poor economy much. I'll continue to upgrade to 4-stroke petrol whenever I can afford a new motor. If you are not into 2 strokes, you don't have much choice in the petrol range.

    Different strokes for different folks, I guess. I've tuned a few of these Saitos now for people who gave up on them. It takes patience, that's for sure.

  9. #1609

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21


    ORIGINAL: CH Ignitions

    Hi Guys,

    Nice to se some names I...grew up with Saillfish, Timbers and W8YE, that I remember from back in 2009 on the FG20 thread.
    My FG20 runed fine even thow was the first version, before the doted carb. But talking about how it can be improved we talk back then a lot of things,
    replace the carb with WT-456-1, or Zama C1Q-P8 .I tried both and they are both direct replacements betwen them, the accelerator pump on them makes
    a nice feature.
    I used this carbs on FA120 , Fa120S,FA125, FA150, FA180, FG 20, and FG30.
    If any of you tied of this engine FG21, and is willing to send it in to me to have a look at it and see what can be done...I will be willing to give it a try.
    I think my stuff for FG20 will also work on the FG21 ...but I have to try it and good part about it is that it can be reverted back to original by replacing the intake mnfl.with a new one from HH or other place and
    no one will know the difference.
    Here is a FG30 from Norway.
    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZOgY3fTWrc&feature=player_detailpage[/youtube]
    Adrian
    Hi Adrian

    Thanks for the video.

    I'v seen two of your videos on FG-20 running with C&H ignition and Zama C1Q-P8 carb (or walbro WT-456-1) The engine idle seems to idle & accelerate perfect but the top rpm seems to be somewhat lower than with the stock carb (8100-8300 vs. 8500-8800)

    Have you tried, by ever chance to blend the bore of the Zama Carb to the intake manifold diameter? Could the difference in Zama carb venturi bore and in the intake manifold be the cause foe reduced max rpm vs. stock carb?

    Btw I'v read lots of very positive customer testimonials of your service. Congrats!

    I'm also thinking of converting my FA-125a to CDI and then run it on glow or gas (don't know yet)


  10. #1610

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    Hi guys, I’ll report my story with the FG-21.
    After my previous (and positive) experience with the FG-14A, I decided to buy this engine to put on a ZLIN 50 (Seagull Models). The engine is an excellent mach for this plane.
    I didn’t follow the manual’s recommendation to run it on the bench for, at least, 40 minutes.It went straight to the plane and I run it for just 20 minutes at 3000 rpm on the ground (I injected some oil in the crankcase first).
    After this time I leaned a little the LS needle and went flying. The HS needle was set a quarter turn on the rich side and I flew the plane in this condition for more or less one hour.
    After this first hour I leaned a little more the LS needle and set the HS needle to maximum power.
    After two hours of flying I decided it was time to set the LS needle correct. I leaned it until the engine quits when I move the throttle fast from idle to maximum opening (this happens on the ground, not in the air). I think I now have the engine set.
    It still misses a beat when going without load at less than 4000 rpm (going down, for instance), but I’m afraid to lean further the LS needle. I think one just have to accept this characteristic of the engine.
    For the first three flights I used MOTUL 800 motorcycle oil (a French brand), then I moved to Morgan Fuel Cool Blue because I read in one of these forums that this oil is the same as the recommended Evolution oil.
    I noticed one curious thing:  when using the Motul, the plane was full of dark spots of oil. When I moved to Cool Blue, the oil spots were clear. I don’t know yet if this is a good thing or a bad one. It could be that this oil is more resistant to burning – a good thing. Or it could be that it is not cleaning the engine as it should – a bad thing. Only time will tell.
    [img]file:///D:/Documents%20and%20Settings/bc18/Meus%20documentos/Arruda/Aeromodelismo/Aeromodelos/Zlin/Meu%20Zlin/Zlin50R1.JPG[/img]

  11. #1611

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    I have given a summary of my experiences earlier in this thread. However, the best that I can say of these engines that they are erratic in their performance. One day everything works fine and then with nothing different in the set up they refuse to run. As to choices - well here in the UK we have a great bunch of guys at Weston UK - they design, build and tune engines. Recently they converted a Magnum 1.80 to petrol for me using a Runtronic induction ignition and a regulator pumped from the tuned exhaust to pressurise the fuel tank via a shroeder valve. Works a treat. So there are choices albeit not off the shelf so to speak.

    I have two FG30's - one of which runs sooo sweetly and the other had been a pig. Recently we decided that the carb was simply not doing its job - so I have used one of Westons' glow R/C carbs. When the ignition unit packed up I also hooked up a Runtronic ignition. So my experience is that ignition units and carb from Saito are just too unreliable. Incidentally I also have an FG57 and again that runs faultlessly - but again I have read threads where others have such a lot of hassle with them one wonders if they are made by the same company!

    My FG21 is currently sitting in a draw - and I am thinking that I may well do to it what I did with my FG30....I will post some pics of the FG30 set up later...

    Cheers

  12. #1612

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    Where is the dot on the carb and what does it look like. A picture would help. I have a Fg20 that I bought in aug/2009 and have had problems getting it to run. It has been to HH three times and still does not run right! Does anyone know what they did different when it FG21 replaced the FG20? Bill

  13. #1613
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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    The FG-21's have a RCEXL type ignition and bronze valve seats. That is the only difference in them.
    Attended the CutFinger Institute of DirtNap University for years but never did graduate....
    Recipient, Mangledhand award August 2008
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    Original AMA #31261

  14. #1614

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    I ran my FG-20 on the bench yesterday to see if I could make any determination as to why the engine runs poorly and often quits, especially when I advance the throttle from low to high. The first test, I had the fuel tank mounted with the engine and when the engine was running rough,I noticed there were air bubbles in the line. When the air bubbles got to the carb, bam, she either died or cut out bad. No, this was brand new fuel line, so there are not holes in the fuel lines.

    I removed the fuel tank and held in my hand while the engine was running. This stopped the bubbles and the engine ran okay, not great, but okay. Evidently the excessive vibration produced by the Saito FG-20 and shaking the tank causes air bubbles to be form in the fuel line. I noticed this same situation when the engine was mounted on the Hangar 9 Funtana 125.

    In talking with Horizon Hobby, they suggested trying a different clunk and sent me two to try. I used one of them for this test and it did not seem to help.

    The engine appears to run better in the open than it does in the airframe. WHen installed in the Funtana 125, there is not much clearance between the hole in the back of the carb and the firewall, which may be contributing to the problem of poor running and dying when in the air. I have enlarged the area behind the carb and drill completely through the firewall in an attempt to help. I have added substantial foam around the fuel tank in the airframe as well. I plan to test run the engine without the cowl first and them with the cowl on the ground soon.

    If it helps, I will report back.


  15. #1615
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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    I like the felt clunks
    Attended the CutFinger Institute of DirtNap University for years but never did graduate....
    Recipient, Mangledhand award August 2008
    Club Saito Member #7
    Original AMA #31261

  16. #1616

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    Selling my CH Ignition system that I was using on the FG-20. It cured the problems I had with the stock Saito ignition system. I'm sure Saito worked out the bugs with the new FG-21, but if one of you still has a finicky you can try my ignition system. Works great!

    http://www.rcuniverse.com/market/item.cfm?itemID=905203

    Here is the listing for it. Thanks.


  17. #1617

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    I want to chime in here with a good word for Bill.

    A while ago I got a crash damaged FG20 for a good price. The needle valve was smashed off the carb.
    I wondered if the FA125 needle valve assembly would work as a replacement, because you cannot buy this assembly separately for the FG carb.
    So I PM'ed Bill about this. He replied that it could not be done as the NV's are different, and then sent me a whole carb , FREE.

    I did not even buy the engine from Horizon and that's the sort of service I get.

    I am truly impressed.
    Thanks Bill
    SAMAA 5409
    Club Saito Member #766
    Saito FA30, FA 45, FA62A, FA72, FA100T, FA120, FA125, FA130T, FA150, FA182T, FA200Ti, FA 300T, FA300TTDP, FA325R5, FG20

  18. #1618

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    Hi to all of you, I am planning to install my new saito fg-20 on a Great Planes WACO ARF, the manual recommends a OS 120 4 stroke engine. My question is, Does any body knows how many HP it can developement?? Does the Saito FG 20 has less power tan the same 4 stroke glow engine displacement???
    I am concern about it, I donΒ΄t want to be underpower on my WACO,
    Thanks

  19. #1619
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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21


    ORIGINAL: labebe

    Hi to all of you, I am planning to install my new saito fg-20 on a Great Planes WACO ARF, the manual recommends a OS 120 4 stroke engine. My question is, Does any body knows how many HP it can developement?? Does the Saito FG 20 has less power tan the same 4 stroke glow engine displacement???
    I am concern about it, I donΒ΄t want to be underpower on my WACO,
    Thanks
    The rule of thumb is 15% less HP for gas over a similar glow engine.

    CDI ignition W/methanol fuel gives you about 6% MORE HP than similar engine/fuel on glow ignition.
    Club Saito #785 - FA91S, FA150, FA180, FA180HC/BBC, FA200TI, FA300TTDP: All with CH Ignitions CDI/Glow fuel
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  20. #1620

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    Well after switching to the FG-21 from the FG-20 I'm ready to fly it. Spent today running the engine in according to the directions. First 5 minutes of running the engine it was really shaky. Shook the plane on the ground pretty bad. This smoothed out though as the engine ran longer. After 45 minutes of running it I started tuning it according to the directions. Getting about 9600RPM after going two clicks richer from my peak RPM of 9850 with an APC 15x6 prop. Have great transition. Ready to fly it as soon as my field dryies out a bit. I feel pretty good that Horizon and Saito worked out the bugs with this new version. Wish me luck, I'll report back when I fly it hopefully this week.

    ...Timbers

  21. #1621
    Moderator w8ye's Avatar
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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    You will need to tune again to get it to run right once in the air.

    It may want a 16 X 6 prop after a gallon of fuel?
    Attended the CutFinger Institute of DirtNap University for years but never did graduate....
    Recipient, Mangledhand award August 2008
    Club Saito Member #7
    Original AMA #31261

  22. #1622

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    Yah I'm gonna fly a few laps then come in and richen it one click at a time until it sounds like its missing in the air, then go back the other way. That way I'll insure I'm not on the lean side.

  23. #1623

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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    I put three ten minute flights on tonight with the FG-21 in my Seagull Yak 54. Runs great. Never missed a beat, no missing or burbling or anything. I feel much more confident with it than I did with the FG-20.
    Still seems to hang up a bit before coming down to an idle when I'm coming in for a landing, causing some hot landings. Maybe I have the low end too lean or something? Other than that I'm pretty happy. The only problem I had with the FG-20 was the ignition stumbling and I was burning out exhaust valve seats. Both those problems are fixed with the FG-21.

    I'll see if I can have a friend videotape my next flight and I'll put a Youtube video up. Looks like Saito and Horizon have this engine running like a top so good job.

    ...Tim

  24. #1624
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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    I ran a FG-20 for a bit. It was junk as both Horizon and Saito know. I kept in a drawer for about 1.5 years looking for the solution to come out. At the last moment I sent it back to Horizon and within a few days a brand new FG-20 motor was delivered back to me. The FG-21 was already out and the plane that was originally intended for the motor was dead. ( Also a disaster...H9 Blue Nose P-51 )

    The FG-20 is new in box. I won't place it on a plane. It is junk. I cannot sell it with a clean conscience. I asked Horizon to at least trade it for a FG-21 but they said no. Thats sad beacause they lost a really good customer even tho they sent me a new junk motor. [&o]

    So what would you do?

    Anyone have the inside skinny on who I can talk to at Horizon. I used to spend a fortune there......

    Speed
    120\" ASM B-17G, WingSpan Models 1/9th Scale B-17G, TopFlite B-25 Mitchell, 95\" ESM B-25, TopFlite Cessna 182,

  25. #1625
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    RE: Saito FG-20 or 21

    After seeing the evolution engines with muffler pressue. I tried it on my FG20. Two perfect flights without even a barble. A first.
    rd


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