No Such Thing As Factory Settings
04-08-2010, 06:52 PM
#26
RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
ORIGINAL: Bonified Wingnut
Pat, I agree with you 100% and this goes for the 2 strokes I use at home such as line trimmers and chainsaws. Now that they have taken the slot out of the carb needles it is really a pain.-BW
Pat, I agree with you 100% and this goes for the 2 strokes I use at home such as line trimmers and chainsaws. Now that they have taken the slot out of the carb needles it is really a pain.-BW
04-08-2010, 11:18 PM
#27
RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
I hear ya about the no touch needles in yard equipment these days. Blame California and their AQMD people.
As for those poor people that have shorts in electrics, the solution is easy. Just lengthen it
Steve,
I concur. Because someone flies extremely well does not mean they know engines or even how to set up a ganged set of servos. It just means they fly well. Not too many fields I go to where my long screwdriver gets to stay in the toolbox. A good many of those that get the tweaks fly a lot better than I can. If you can, you should where assisting with engine tuning is concerned. Perhaps one day one of those that gets the help might show me how to fly some maneuvers better.
Antique,
This is all your fault you know. If it hadn't been for those three days I spent with you and your wife I doubt I would have ever delved much deeper than I had already gotten. You recognized there was a fire there and fanned the blaze a bit
Because of that I've been able to go where few have been and most never will. If I never said thank you before, I'm doing it now. Pe, TKG, BCCHI, Gary Allison, Dick Hansen, and indirectly Ed Vollmers are a few others that I've learned a lot from. There's a couple of people like RTK and Altavillan that have helped a lot along the way too.
As for those poor people that have shorts in electrics, the solution is easy. Just lengthen it
Steve,
I concur. Because someone flies extremely well does not mean they know engines or even how to set up a ganged set of servos. It just means they fly well. Not too many fields I go to where my long screwdriver gets to stay in the toolbox. A good many of those that get the tweaks fly a lot better than I can. If you can, you should where assisting with engine tuning is concerned. Perhaps one day one of those that gets the help might show me how to fly some maneuvers better.
Antique,
This is all your fault you know. If it hadn't been for those three days I spent with you and your wife I doubt I would have ever delved much deeper than I had already gotten. You recognized there was a fire there and fanned the blaze a bit
Because of that I've been able to go where few have been and most never will. If I never said thank you before, I'm doing it now. Pe, TKG, BCCHI, Gary Allison, Dick Hansen, and indirectly Ed Vollmers are a few others that I've learned a lot from. There's a couple of people like RTK and Altavillan that have helped a lot along the way too.
04-09-2010, 03:52 AM
#28
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RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
ORIGINAL: aussiesteve
Now you did it again
Some local ''Gurus'' are not necessarily knowledgeable. They are just listened to.
A couple of weeks ago, at an IMAC comp here, a very accomplished flier was ''assisting'' one of my ''Factory pilots'' to tune his new engine.
Unfortunatley I was not there so I heard about this after the event. What I was told (by more than one person who was there on the day) was this:
The factory flier has a reasonably new engine in his plane - it is a JC engine (Area 102). It has about a gallon or so through it. The engine was burbling at the mid range so the ''Accomplished flyer (aka local guru)'' ''Assisted'' with the ''tuning''. I was told that the more they messed with the needles, the worse the problem got But instead of going back to the beginning (Yes - the factory flyer DOES know the original settings to start from), they continued to make the problem worse. The ''accomplished'' flyer then proceeded to bag MY engine brand based on what he had been ''achieving'' with a completely different brand of engine on that day !!!
Now this accomplished flyer is a ''local Guru'' in most peoples eyes here as he is most definitely proven to be a good flyer (probably why he is sponsored by DA - shame about that if that is how he feels he needs to help them to market their product because I have a much higher opinion of that company than that). Based on his performance that day? - DEFINITLEY NOT an ''engine guru''. (Especially as he then used his experience of that day to bag a completely different brand of engine to the one he was messing up).
But people were still listening to him.
Sometimes, the local Guru is not what he is made out to be. Very often they are just a good flyer but not necessarily knowledeable on al things to do with the planes.
If adjustments continue to make the problem worse, then they are usually headed in the wrong direction.
ORIGINAL: pe reivers
Every club should at least have an engine guru that knows how to set needles. Even then, some are extremely hardheaded and won't allow their minds to be intruded by newfangled ideas.[img][/img]
Every club should at least have an engine guru that knows how to set needles. Even then, some are extremely hardheaded and won't allow their minds to be intruded by newfangled ideas.[img][/img]
Some local ''Gurus'' are not necessarily knowledgeable. They are just listened to.
A couple of weeks ago, at an IMAC comp here, a very accomplished flier was ''assisting'' one of my ''Factory pilots'' to tune his new engine.
Unfortunatley I was not there so I heard about this after the event. What I was told (by more than one person who was there on the day) was this:
The factory flier has a reasonably new engine in his plane - it is a JC engine (Area 102). It has about a gallon or so through it. The engine was burbling at the mid range so the ''Accomplished flyer (aka local guru)'' ''Assisted'' with the ''tuning''. I was told that the more they messed with the needles, the worse the problem got But instead of going back to the beginning (Yes - the factory flyer DOES know the original settings to start from), they continued to make the problem worse. The ''accomplished'' flyer then proceeded to bag MY engine brand based on what he had been ''achieving'' with a completely different brand of engine on that day !!!
Now this accomplished flyer is a ''local Guru'' in most peoples eyes here as he is most definitely proven to be a good flyer (probably why he is sponsored by DA - shame about that if that is how he feels he needs to help them to market their product because I have a much higher opinion of that company than that). Based on his performance that day? - DEFINITLEY NOT an ''engine guru''. (Especially as he then used his experience of that day to bag a completely different brand of engine to the one he was messing up).
But people were still listening to him.
Sometimes, the local Guru is not what he is made out to be. Very often they are just a good flyer but not necessarily knowledeable on al things to do with the planes.
If adjustments continue to make the problem worse, then they are usually headed in the wrong direction.
Steve, just to clarify one point, DA have no sponsored pilots in WA. Clearly we have lot of folks use DA engines in WA. Chris Brislin is the only DA sponsored pilot in Australia, and I doubt it was him as he lives 4000 kms away. The chap that assisted your Factory Flyer did so of his own accord, and expressed an opinion of his own, and perhaps would have been wiser to keep that opinion to themselves. People have opinions and make choices, sometimes brand loyalty and personal opinion are a little misguided.
04-09-2010, 06:16 AM
#29
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RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
Hi Richo
Thanks for that info, I have removed the offending (and I admit very incorrect) part of my post and apologise for being an "incorrect guru" myself. I had been led to believe the person involved did have that sponsorship and appreciate the correction.
My very high opinion of your product remains and it most definitley wasn't Chris as on the weekend in question, he was at the same field as yourself and I (Luskintyre) while "the incident" I quoted was occuring on the other side of the country.
Pat - I know the feeling, I also spend a fair bit of time helping to tune engines for others. They are often amazed at how much difference a little change can make.
BTW The offending engine of my "factory flier" got sorted out today The fault was a pair of "CM6 equivalent" plugs that were not made by NGK, Nippondenso or Champion [>:]
Thanks for that info, I have removed the offending (and I admit very incorrect) part of my post and apologise for being an "incorrect guru" myself. I had been led to believe the person involved did have that sponsorship and appreciate the correction.
My very high opinion of your product remains and it most definitley wasn't Chris as on the weekend in question, he was at the same field as yourself and I (Luskintyre) while "the incident" I quoted was occuring on the other side of the country
. Pat - I know the feeling, I also spend a fair bit of time helping to tune engines for others. They are often amazed at how much difference a little change can make.
BTW The offending engine of my "factory flier" got sorted out today The fault was a pair of "CM6 equivalent" plugs that were not made by NGK, Nippondenso or Champion [>:]
04-09-2010, 08:02 AM
#30
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RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
I have seen so much of this type of thing at the fields I fly at engines that are running way to rich, but the owners forbid anyone to touch the needles for fear of messing up the factory settings. I have found it's just a waste of my time to try to explain to them there is no such thing as a factory setting due to the very statements that already been said in here. So I don't even bother anymore unless I am asked to help. Let them fly there gurggling to rich engine all they want to I can turn a deaf ear to it most of the time.
Also the ones that do adjust there engine still have glow in there heads and can't think far enough ahead to realize you don't turn the needles near as far on a gasser like with a glow, Sometimes 1/8 of a turn can be a mile on a gas engine but they just can't seem to see it and they wind up chasing needles constantly.
And here is the one that gets to me the most, you spend you time getting someones engine running to the letter,everything is on the money and the next flight there over with a screwdriver resetting the neeldes themselves back to where its a mess then want help.
Also the ones that do adjust there engine still have glow in there heads and can't think far enough ahead to realize you don't turn the needles near as far on a gasser like with a glow, Sometimes 1/8 of a turn can be a mile on a gas engine but they just can't seem to see it and they wind up chasing needles constantly.
And here is the one that gets to me the most, you spend you time getting someones engine running to the letter,everything is on the money and the next flight there over with a screwdriver resetting the neeldes themselves back to where its a mess then want help.
04-09-2010, 08:18 AM
#31
RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
ORIGINAL: Cyberwolf
I have seen so much of this type of thing at the fields I fly at engines that are running way to rich, but the owners forbid anyone to touch the needles for fear of messing up the factory settings. I have found it's just a waste of my time to try to explain to them there is no such thing as a factory setting due to the very statements that already been said in here. So I don't even bother anymore unless I am asked to help. Let them fly there gurggling to rich engine all they want to I can turn a deaf ear to it most of the time.
Also the ones that do adjust there engine still have glow in there heads and can't think far enough ahead to realize you don't turn the needles near as far on a gasser like with a glow, Sometimes 1/8 of a turn can be a mile on a gas engine but they just can't seem to see it and they wind up chasing needles constantly.
And here is the one that gets to me the most, you spend you time getting someones engine running to the letter,everything is on the money and the next flight there over with a screwdriver resetting the neeldes themselves back to where its a mess then want help.
I have seen so much of this type of thing at the fields I fly at engines that are running way to rich, but the owners forbid anyone to touch the needles for fear of messing up the factory settings. I have found it's just a waste of my time to try to explain to them there is no such thing as a factory setting due to the very statements that already been said in here. So I don't even bother anymore unless I am asked to help. Let them fly there gurggling to rich engine all they want to I can turn a deaf ear to it most of the time.
Also the ones that do adjust there engine still have glow in there heads and can't think far enough ahead to realize you don't turn the needles near as far on a gasser like with a glow, Sometimes 1/8 of a turn can be a mile on a gas engine but they just can't seem to see it and they wind up chasing needles constantly.
And here is the one that gets to me the most, you spend you time getting someones engine running to the letter,everything is on the money and the next flight there over with a screwdriver resetting the neeldes themselves back to where its a mess then want help.
04-09-2010, 03:21 PM
#33
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RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
I've gotta admit, I can be the same way. Always trying to get it better.Lol That's the fun part of this hobby though, tweaking on these planes to get them as good as you can.
04-09-2010, 05:09 PM
#34
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RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
It's all cool Steve, glad your Factory Flyer got the issue sorted out. Those non genuine CM6's have presented a problem for a number of folks.
04-09-2010, 09:17 PM
#35
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RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
There was a guy last year at our field that got a plane with a new DL50. It gurgled and burbled from idle to WOT. He had ran a couple of gallons thru it this way. I made the comment at the field to some other fliers that it was way to rich and needed the needles adjusted. Their comments were that you need to run it rich to help break it in. They also commented that you need it a little rich because it will lean out in the air. A few of these that made the comments even fly gassers. I told the guy with the DL that it's rich and he asked me if I could adjust it for him. I said sure. So I started to adjust the needles and didn't even get close to setting them right when he said leave it rich because it's not broke in yet. I quit and walked away. I learned not to even say or try to adjust anybody's gassers at the field.
There are 3 of us that have messed with 2 strokers for years so we always have ours adjusted. I just let the others fly theirs they way they are. The guy with the DL finally got about 4 gallons thru it and heard him say that he switched it over to AMSOIL at 100:1. He did it because another guy told him that is what DA suggests. It's his engine!!!
There are 3 of us that have messed with 2 strokers for years so we always have ours adjusted. I just let the others fly theirs they way they are. The guy with the DL finally got about 4 gallons thru it and heard him say that he switched it over to AMSOIL at 100:1. He did it because another guy told him that is what DA suggests. It's his engine!!!
04-10-2010, 10:45 PM
#39
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RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man
I have a good friend like that. Can't leave the needles alone in ythe never ending quest for the last potential rpm. He knows who he is
I have a good friend like that. Can't leave the needles alone in ythe never ending quest for the last potential rpm. He knows who he is
I have since given up on attaining 100% perfection. Now I get it to where it feels good and runs well. Last time we flew you didn't see me touch anything did ya But you could have used some ear plugs though
04-11-2010, 01:28 AM
#42
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RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
Model aviation has always had a high turnover rate. This combined with all the new pre-made equipment assures that technical knowledge is lost very quickly. The day is coming when all the new flyers will want to know what the factory trim settings are after wondering why the knobs are even there.
04-11-2010, 04:54 AM
#43
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RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
no such thing as factory settings?oh yes there is what ever the needles are left at when they leave the shop,thats it, end of discussion.
i don't twist needles at the field anymore for no one,if they can't figure it out on there own they shouldn't be flying gas,thats what electric motors are for.
i don't twist needles at the field anymore for no one,if they can't figure it out on there own they shouldn't be flying gas,thats what electric motors are for.
04-11-2010, 10:50 AM
#45
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RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
Years ago we tried using a vacuum pump and pressure/vacuum gauge system to set carboretors in production, the idea was to set the needles before putting them on engines.
We adjusted the needles for a certain vacuum number on the engine side at specific throttle positions while pulling regulated air through the venturi. It did work fairly well but we still ended up with more variability than it was worth once the engine was run.
We adjusted the needles for a certain vacuum number on the engine side at specific throttle positions while pulling regulated air through the venturi. It did work fairly well but we still ended up with more variability than it was worth once the engine was run.
04-11-2010, 11:12 AM
#46
RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
In a manner of speaking that is still done, but it's performed by using graduated spring pressure. Walbro makes a large number of different carb springs, each providing a different amount of pressure for pop off pressures.
I tune engines using CO, CO2, NOX, and AFR values in a controlled environment, and even with engines as perfectly matched at every component stage as possible there is a lot of variation in the carb tuning.
I tune engines using CO, CO2, NOX, and AFR values in a controlled environment, and even with engines as perfectly matched at every component stage as possible there is a lot of variation in the carb tuning.
04-11-2010, 12:58 PM
#47
RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
Is this the major difference in Walbro carbs that appear exactly the same but have different numbers? Can you buy the springs to tailor a carb, with the desired characteristics otherwise, to suit a particular application? TIA
04-11-2010, 07:11 PM
#50
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RE: No Such Thing As Factory Settings
ORIGINAL: madman75
They also commented that you need it a little rich because it will lean out in the air.
They also commented that you need it a little rich because it will lean out in the air.
michael.