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Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

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Old 02-27-2012, 01:18 PM
  #126
Jam1e
 
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

Pete, your a star!
What an indepth bit of advice.
Thank you!
I'll see how i go and get back to if i need to.

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Pete Bergstrom


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Jam1e

Hi folks.I've just aquired a lightly used Saito FG14 Petrol engine.I haven't had chance to run it yet, and know very littke about 4strokes.I've since heard some bad reports, regarding miss firing and and maybe a poor ignition unit.I've also notice that Saito have now brought out an FG14 "B". Why is this, and what has changed from the first model FG 15 petrol?Constructive opinions appreciated.
Jam1e,

The 'B' designation on the engine is simply to recognize that it shares the same case as the '82B' glow version of the engine. Th FG-14B came out originally as a 'B' version, there never was an 'A' version.

Ignition problems are fairly straight forward. Either the ignition won't run above 7500rpm, or it will. If an engine simply won't run above 7500 rpm than it is an ignition problem. If it misses above that rpm it is a fuel mixture issue, not an ignition issue. All the FG-14B engines have had the latest Saito carb technology from their release.

I would suggest you read through the manual and familiarize yourself with the operation of the engine, follow the manual (contrary to popular belief it is not just a listing of "suggestions" but what we have found to be "Best Practices" after hours of testing) and run your engine on a bench test stand first. If you find that it runs well and you can set all the needles with the prop you intend to use in the airplane - then move it into the airplane. If at that point you develop any operating problems then you need to look at the airframe/fuel tank/fuel delivery system to the engine. Make sure you run a filter into the tank from your fuel jug, a filter between the fuel tank and the carb, and avoid a t-fitting in the fuel line between the tank and carb (These are a known source of air bubbles into the system). Instead of the t-fitting, build a 3-line tank so you have a dedicated fueling/defueling line that has nothing to do with the carb fuel feed line.

If you need a manual it can be downloaded here: http://www.horizonhobby.com/pdf/1732...ion_Manual.pdf

There is a tech note about the muffler here: http://www.horizonhobby.com/pdf/SAI_...bon_072011.pdf

Enjoy your new-to-you engine!

Pete



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Old 03-01-2012, 07:53 PM
  #127
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

Purchased a new FG-20 a couple of years ago from Horizon. Installing it inverted in a model of a homebuilt which uses a "Cub-like" cowl. Problem is physical interference of the engine's front ignition sensor with the inside surface of the cowl. This prevents the engine's drive washer from protruding far enough through the cowl. Only solution I can see is to make up an aluminum spacer (approx. 5/8" thick) to fit between the drive washer and the back of the prop.
Somebody out there must have encountered similar problem. Looking for experience of others and suggestions.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Bob
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Old 03-02-2012, 09:08 AM
  #128
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: cub driver

Purchased a new FG-20 a couple of years ago from Horizon. Installing it inverted in a model of a homebuilt which uses a "Cub-like" cowl. Problem is physical interference of the engine's front ignition sensor with the inside surface of the cowl. This prevents the engine's drive washer from protruding far enough through the cowl. Only solution I can see is to make up an aluminum spacer (approx. 5/8" thick) to fit between the drive washer and the back of the prop.
Somebody out there must have encountered similar problem. Looking for experience of others and suggestions.
Thanks in advance for any help.
Bob
Hi Bob,
My Saito FG14 gas is an early model and alsohas quite a bulky ignition sensor, as in picture 1. Yet in pic 2 the same engine has a slimmer version. Perhaps it would be cheaper to source a slimline sensor?

Apologies. "It" won't let me upload the pictures so below are the links to the pictures. You may need to cut and paste them to your task bar??

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=sai...1t:429,r:2,s:0

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=sai...:0&tx=58&ty=58
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Old 03-08-2012, 08:45 AM
  #129
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

FG-14B problems

Need some help, have been running my 14 for a few months generally successfully. This engine has never run well cold but had been smoothing out after letting it warm for a coupla minutes. HS needle was just short of 1.5 turns out and I was getting something in excess of 9k with a 14x6. Now, all of a sudden everything has changed - the engine coughs and sputters constantly and will only run at almost 3 turns out. There is now a transition delay as well. The engine now rewards me with dead sticks every flight, but it does start and idle well. About at wit's end and ready to give up on it.

Run 93 octane, 20:1 Klotz, 14x6 Evo prop and a RCEXL plug. I have made sure that the muffler is not clogged - anybody out there have any suggestions????
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Old 03-08-2012, 09:07 AM
  #130
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!



Captain2

I would start by changing the spark plug and making sure that the spark plug cap is very secure.

Pete

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Old 03-08-2012, 10:02 AM
  #131
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

the RCEXL plug is new but does not fit the Saito cap nearly as well as the old Saito plug. Am using the RCEXL only because the 'Saito' plug is so outrageously priced. Did just have the occasion that my plug wire worked loose, and created enough radio interference that my control surfaces jammed at full deflection despite everything being on 2.4. A frightening thing to happen if the plug wire works loose while in the air?
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:22 PM
  #132
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

I agree you should try the plug first. Perhaps try another brand and, as Pete suggests, make sure the spark plug cap is tight. I think you might have to buy another Saito branded plug just to make sure you are on the right track. Then you can try another brand if it is obviously the plug.
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Old 03-08-2012, 01:28 PM
  #133
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!



Captain2

It does sound like the change that caused the running problem started with the new spark plug.

Pete

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Old 03-09-2012, 08:44 AM
  #134
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

actually I started having problems with the original. Saito branded plug - engine wouldn't fire at all, took the plug out and found that the electrode was literally gone (burned off?) Then replaced it with a RCEXL and initially at least was fine. Only about 6 flights in, it starts and idles fine but misbehaves at anything over idle. Plan on checking/replacing plug next time out to see if it looks OK. Was thinking an iginition issue anybody else having these kind of problems????
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Old 03-09-2012, 09:12 AM
  #135
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

Not with RCEXL ignition
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Old 03-09-2012, 10:24 AM
  #136
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

so you are saying that the Saito branded ignition does have problems????
Have a NGH 17 with a 1/4-32 RCEXL running 4.8v that I've had no problems with and with a better twist lock plug cap design (kinda like a glow starter) I lost the Saito retaining spring almost immediately, of course. Think I should give the RCEXL a try? Agape Racing/Hobby does sell retrofit RCEXLs for a variety of gassers and also a kit for a proper plug cap. I am 2nd owner of this engine so don't think Saito's honoring any warranty in any case.
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:19 AM
  #137
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

Before spending any money replacing the entire ignition I would work on securing the plug cap tothe spark plug better. The spring in the Saito ignition is an integral part of the grounding system and it sounds to me that as you try to accelerate vibrations are causing the ignition cap to break the grounding needed for a successful spark, resulting in the mis-firing you are experiencing. The more it misfires the more it vibrates and it is a never ending cycle.

Pete
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:46 AM
  #138
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Pete Bergstrom

r. The spring in the Saito ignition is an integral part of the grounding system and it sounds to me that as you try to accelerate vibrations are causing the ignition cap to break the grounding needed for a successful spark, resulting in the mis-firing you are experiencing. The more it misfires the more it vibrates and it is a never ending cycle.

Pete
A bad design IMO. When I first hooked everything up , the spring pops off to never never land and hasn't been seen since. Can I put a small hose clamp around the end of the cap to hold it in place?
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Old 03-09-2012, 11:57 AM
  #139
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

Yes. That will work.

Pete
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Old 03-09-2012, 12:28 PM
  #140
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

to the auto parts store I go Appreciate your help, the FG-14 is stronger than I thought it would be when it's running right, and costs next to nothing to operate. Will let you know if the loose cap issue is the problem.
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Old 03-12-2012, 01:04 PM
  #141
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!



You might want to tune a tad richer/cooler (just a few clicks on the high end needle) if the spark plug element seems to be burning out after an hour or two of run time.  I still have the stock Saito ignition unit after about 50 hours operation with no problems.

The engine seems to be easier on spark plugs once it is run in (say 5 hours flight time) or perhaps the operator gets better at fine tuning. I tend to run mine a few clicks rich - the elements don't burn out and just seem to wear normally (lasting up to 15 hours run time). Mine is well run in and I'm using a 25:1 oil mix.

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Old 03-13-2012, 09:00 AM
  #142
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

couldn't find anything to help with the cap tightness. Not enough room around the plug for a clamp. Worked on it for more than 2 hours this last weekend and another hour on Monday - all to no avail. Nothing but coughing , sputtering and deadsticks - this engine just WILL NOT run right - so much so that it has become the butt of a few jokes at my Club field. The thing will only run 5 + turns out HS and several turns in from flush on low, both way way out from what Saito says (1.5 and flush).

In any case, have too much money invested in this thing tthat I want to throw it away - have removed it from my plane and substituted a FA-82 in its place - which,, of course, runs like Saitos should. Have a engine nerd friend of mine that knows engines much better than me - I'll give him everything he needs to play with it on a test stand, maybe he can figure it out. For me it has become a blood pressure problem. Life is too short. If my friend can't get it to work, maybe then I send it back to Champaign, and let them put it in their trophy case.
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Old 03-13-2012, 09:42 AM
  #143
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

I have two FG-20's that I converted the RCEXL ignitions and plugs. - no more ignition trouble and can get reasonably priced ignition parts from many places if needed.
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Old 03-13-2012, 10:17 AM
  #144
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

switching to RCEXL also something I might do. Agape Racing & Hobby sells a 1/4-32 RCEXL cdi for about 1/3 of what Saito thinks its worth - with a 'twist lock' plug cap that WORKS. I know, I have one on a NGH GT17 that I own. . Think also that RCEXL may be making them for Saito anyway. Don't know anything about any specific 'programming the FG14 uses, or how it must be setup but I guess I can find out.

how much trouble was it to convert your 20s?
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Old 03-13-2012, 02:28 PM
  #145
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

The Saitos run fine with the standard RCEXL programming with the total advance set up at 28 degrees before top dead center just like on a two stroke.
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Old 03-14-2012, 08:15 AM
  #146
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

meaning that if I mount the Hall sensor in the same place (about 7:00 looking from the front) then it works OK? May I ask where yoiu bought yours and for how much?/

C2
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Old 03-14-2012, 08:31 AM
  #147
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

I bought all of mine from the original CH ignition which has gone out of business

But there is a new CH Ignition outfit. http://www.ch-ignitions.com/

Looking at the front of the engine from the front, the sensor is at about 7:00.

You can buy RCEXL ignitions from many places - RC Extreme power - Agape racing - Wrong way RC and many others

You will need to physically time the engine with a degree wheel at 28 degrees before top dead center when turning the crankshaft in the direction that the engine runs.

Print the degree wheel off and glue to a piece of plywood or cardboard



[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBXFpxWg7vY[/youtube]

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Old 04-10-2012, 10:42 AM
  #148
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

now available - CHEAP - a slightly used FG-14, one of the most difficult engines I've ever had the displeasure to work with. Have identified the problems (I think) to the carburetor design [high and low needles] , something that cannot be flushed/cleaned only replaced - which I did. ($150 carb replacements) So it starts and idles fine and will even run up to reasonably high rpm (9k or so) initially only to lose its fuel feed, cough,sputter and then quit. Believe that fuel flow thru the needles is inconsistent at best. Don't believe it to be an ignition problem either because the engine can reach 9k or so at least temporarily and the spark is strong. Not nearly reliable enough to put in the air, have since replaced it with a glow 82 which runs great, of course.
Noticed that Saito has come out with an 'improved' carb design in the new(??) FG-21, can't help but wonder if there isn't something to the thought that whatever plagued the 20's carb doesn't also effect the 14's. No idea and have given up because of all the deadsticks. An expensive lesson learned (esp after buying a carb body, the complete carb, and the original engine) - think I'll send it back to Saito though, wouldn't want to wish this on anybody for any price. Maybe they need a fishing weight in their trophy cases.

Too bad too - a good idea - before it's time???
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:28 AM
  #149
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

Are you guys useing the stock hall sensor with the rcell ignition and rewiring it? Or the rcell hall sensor because I cant seem to rotate it far enough to get it to start it will try to run but thats it seems like it needs to be rotated more towards 8:00 but theres no room left in the slot.

Thanks Rick
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Old 05-08-2012, 08:51 AM
  #150
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Default RE: Saito - Pro FG 14 Tips and tricks only!!!

The original Saito sensor will not work with the RCEXL ignition.

You have to use the RCEXL sensor.

The pickup needs to be mounted to the left about 7 PM when looking at the engine from the front.

O(n the new Saito FG-21, They repositioned the locating screw in the magnet hub so the new RCEXL sensor or pick up mounts centered on the casting seam.

The engine runs best with the timing at 28 degrees before top dead center
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