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DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

Old 01-28-2013, 10:52 AM
  #6351
757jonp
 
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

Ahicks... I understand what you're saying (sorta)... The best analogy I think of offhand is fooling around with an automotive distributor timing (the old ones, not this new crap!) With the engine sitting there idling, I can increase or decrease the speed about 8 or 900 RPM)of the engine simply by advancing or retarding the distributor, no other adjustments at all. (yes I know,if I go far advanced it 'll start to slow down again) Now I realize the guts on this distributor are purely mechanical, but imagine if they were electronically controlled and I put a curve in there that w/n go to full retard until the engine is running at say 2000 RPM or so. That'll make for a interesting time on the highway wouldn't it? You approach a stop sign, let off the gas, it doesn't slow now as much as you expected, put on the brakes, and all of a sudden it slows to idle.

I don't buy that the engine is running away.. the prop attached to the engine is windmilling. Two electric fans facing each other, turn one on, what happens to the other one?

Take your plane up high and go into a dive, turn off the ignition, chances are good the prop will be still turning the engine over and it'll restart. If not..... land!

I sure would like to know what DLE was thinking when they ordered up this particular ignition.
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:25 PM
  #6352
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

armody (and others),
I don't post on here too much anymore, but still surf once in awhile. If you do a search on here you will find all kinds of info on the DLE 20 with the #4 ignition, and the timing advance. But, if you go to pge 180 of this thread and look at post 4480, you will see my post way back when regarding the timing. The link to the YouTube video that my son made is still there. On the video you will see that I am making very small throttle adjustments with the trim tab of my radio.

Lots of people will say that you can fix that timing issue with proper linkage set-up and proper tuning of the engine. We'll, you'll see that I just changed my ignition. That to me is the easiest way to fix the problem, becasue my Extra was a SOB to land with the stock ignition.

The DLE 20 was my third gasser, and I can say if it had been my first, I probably would never buy another gasser. It was very frustrating at first. That's why Jody sent me the ignition.

Once you see the video, you'll understand why.

One other thing, the "experienced" engines guys at my club helped me a lot with my first two gassers. So when I had them take a look at my DLE, they all just shook their heads. At the time, none of us at the club knew about the automatic timimg advance. It's a real thrill landing an Extra at 3400 rpm, and then watch it drop to 1800 all by itself at 10 feet above the ground and just about nose in.

It is soooooo much fun to fly now.

Good luck
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Old 01-28-2013, 12:57 PM
  #6353
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

Anyone have a source for tygon subing-3/32 or 1/8 that is really flexibletired of adding hex nuts to clunk in fuel tank-
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:26 PM
  #6354
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

If what you're saying were completely true the only engines that hang would be the ones running the #4/DLE 20 ignition? If you check into it further, I think you'll find that's just not the case at all. It's about the 2 stroke design, really.

Way off topic, but to demonstrate the point, I have a 600cc snowmobile engine that will do the same thing, and can assure you the ignition is much more sophisticated than the one we're talking about?

As I said, replacing the module will help make the engine less sensitive to the problem, but the potential for an "idle hang" will still be there.

Regarding "free wheeling" we're saying the same thing. The engine has no load on it while coasting. -Al
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Old 01-28-2013, 01:47 PM
  #6355
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

Cactus 463 I have a 1/4'' SS nut on all my fuel lines and a clunk from a chain saw .02 R/L
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:03 PM
  #6356
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

Some of the instructions in the DLE20's manual. I have been following that, but I have not changed the ignition timings cos I don't know much about it.

http://manuals.hobbico.com/dle/dleg0020-manual.pdf

The ignition timing is preset on the DLE-20 at 38-40° before Top Dead
Center (TDC). The ignition timing can be advanced or retarded by
loosening the (2) ignition sensor Phillips head screws and sliding
the sensor to the full extent clockwise (41° advancing the ignition)
or counter clockwise (37° retarding the ignition). Be sure to retighten
the Phillips head screws after adjusting the ignition timing. It is
best to attach the sensor with the screws centered in the slot as a

starting point.
Advancing the timing causes combustion to occur earlier resulting
in higher performance of the engine. However, advancing the timing
also causes higher engine temperatures and can cause premature
wear of internal engine components.
Carburetor Adjustment Troubleshooting
Problem:
If The engine hesitates when accelerated rapidly.
or The rpm increases at idling.
or The engine stops when the throttle is moved from high to low.
Solution:
The low-speed needle “L” is too lean. Open it up about 1/8 of a
turn and try again.
Problem:
If The idle is not steady.
Solution:
The low-speed needle “L” valve is too rich. Close it 1/8 of a turn
and try again.
Problem:
If Engine stops at full throttle.
or Engine hesitates when accelerated rapidly.
or The engine will not come up to full rpm at full throttle.
Solution:
The high-speed needle valve “H” is too lean. Open it up 1/8 of
a turn and try again.
14
Problem:
If Your engine does not reach full rpm.
or Carbon build-ups appear consistently on your spark plug.
Solution:
The high-speed needle valve “H” is too rich. Close it up 1/8 turn
and try again.
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Old 01-28-2013, 03:25 PM
  #6357
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

He did say it deadsticked on him, not just idling too fast. So be sure and check for anything that could be causing a lean condition, slightly riching LSN, check all bolts, filters, etc.

Yes, when changing to an ignition with better curve is a great time to retard the sensor some because stock DLE timing is 35 degrees.... too far advanced.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:28 PM
  #6358
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Cactus463

Anyone have a source for tygon subing-3/32 or 1/8 that is really flexibletired of adding hex nuts to clunk in fuel tank-
Cactus-
I have been using Stihl black fuel tubing in my tanks. It comes in 3 foot lengths for about $5. It comes in a plastic bag with the Stihl logo on it. You can get it where Stihl products are sold.
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Old 01-28-2013, 07:54 PM
  #6359
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

Or go McMaster Carr and order. Tygon, Viton, or Tygothane tubing for gas. The 2nd two are more flexible, especially the Viton tubing.
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:32 AM
  #6360
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

Thanks for that ahicks, I understand where you are coming from. The idle 'hang' and step are actually two different things here. I was initially thinking they were one and the same.

Cheers
Wes


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ahicks


Quote:
ORIGINAL: wesjon

So I could basically switch to a RCEXEL ignition and leave my timing as factory at 35'? Will this do away with the weird throttle step and hang before idle?

Thanks
Wes
You know, this question is one I have a tough time with, because the answer is yes and no? So many of us have run into this problem - which isn't helped a bit by this timing issue, admittedly - but a lot of guys (most?) have been able to adjust it out by running the low end on the rich side.

So to explain, closing the throttle (eliminating the fuel that WAS helping to cool the engine) is what starts this chain of events. A hot 2 stroke with no load on it (prop is free wheeling as the plane slows) can "run away", requiring no ignition to run (that fact takes the module right out of the picture, no?). "Running away" often is what is happening here to some degree, but this isn't unique to this engine at all. Any 2 stoke can do it? Usually on our plane engines it's something temporary. After a few seconds it cools down, and drops back down to the idle speed we're expecting. The 2 things to help minimize the potential for this issue are an idle speed as low as reasonably possible (something under about 1900 here?) and a mixture rich enough to help cool the engine quickly when the throttle is closed (that's the big one).

So yes, you sure can make the engine a LOT less sensitive to the issue by swapping to an ign. module that doesn't have a step in it, but no, you may still not cure the "hang" problem completely? Hope that helps. -Al
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Old 01-29-2013, 07:44 AM
  #6361
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)


Quote:
ORIGINAL: tevans5

Cactus-
I have been using Stihl black fuel tubing in my tanks. It comes in 3 foot lengths for about $5. It comes in a plastic bag with the Stihl logo on it. You can get it where Stihl products are sold.

Could you give us a part number, thanks.
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Old 01-29-2013, 12:43 PM
  #6362
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

Quote:
ORIGINAL: ahicks

If what you're saying were completely true the only engines that hang would be the ones running the #4/DLE 20 ignition? If you check into it further, I think you'll find that's just not the case at all. It's about the 2 stroke design, really.

Way off topic, but to demonstrate the point, I have a 600cc snowmobile engine that will do the same thing, and can assure you the ignition is much more sophisticated than the one we're talking about?

As I said, replacing the module will help make the engine less sensitive to the problem, but the potential for an ''idle hang'' will still be there.

Regarding ''free wheeling'' we're saying the same thing. The engine has no load on it while coasting. -Al
I'm not going to argue with you, simply because I'm not an engine guru, and would never claim to be. But I've tinkered with enough engines to know the difference between 'hang' and 'timing advance'. As for the hang, sure, it happens for a half second or so, maybe. It's alomost hard to hear on the planes we fly, but that's just my opinion. But that timing curve on the #4 ignition, just watch the video. Nobody eles's planes at my club have anything remotely close to that.

My post was really for armody. This is his first gasser. It can be frustrating for someone that has no experience. But there are so many different opinions about this engine/ignition combo, that we could discuss this forever.

The guys at my club helped me tune (but I really didn't need much help becauste it's fairly simple, but I'm always trying to learn new things) my first two engines. No problem. Then I show up with my DLE. I try to land and it's sounds like it's running about 1/4 to 1/3 throttle. I try bliping the stick, flying around, up and back down with the throttle. No change. Finally I just cut throttle and land (at higher speed then I would like), and then stear back and forth to try and get the plane slowed down (asphalt runway). After about 10-12 seconds, which is a loooong time, the idle drops down to normal. Ok, mission accomplished. I just flew around like this, for several flights, all the while trying to "tune-out" the timing advance. I even cut throttle up high and let the plane come down until the throttle drops to normal (10-12 seconds later) and then try to land. Doesn't work with the Extra cause it needs a little speed to land. Not much, but a little. So I speed up a couple clicks and wham, throttle goes to like 1/3, way too fast. This is not fun flying/landing.

Can this be "tuned out', sure, by somebody who takes the time to make the linkage as liner as possible, install opti-kill, and tune it perfectly. Im not doing the liner thing because I use the throttle kill button. And admittedly, I'm not that good at tuning it perfectly.

So, with all that said, I'd spend the 40-50 bucks and get a new ignition all day long. Install the new ignition, change the timing to 28 degrees, re-tune and go fly. I like to keep things simple, but that's just me.

And I love flying my Extra, with the new ignition.

Hope this helps, just like my club members help me.
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Old 01-29-2013, 02:34 PM
  #6363
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

I do not understand what is throttle step and hang before idle. I'd appreciate if anyone can explain it to me.

I agree with mesaflyer. With the stock ignition of DLE20, before last week, when I flew the plane, somehow settings of LSN and HSN were pretty good. As I mentioned that I was flying at the retention pond, and these are huge retention ponds, they are at least 3 to 4 ponds there one is the largest where I had the maiden flight, and I had enough room to make my landing approach and land the plane. I landed the plane on idle speed, I had to push the throttle a tad, but it landed beautifully. Ever since I touched the LSN and HSN, somehow it looks like I pissed the motor off, and no matter what I do I could not slow it down, it would try to land hot and way faster as I would have wanted.

Therefore resulting in a broken prop and I replaced with zinger 16X6, tweaked LSN and HSN, and somehow it would sputter up in the air either half or full throttle, air speed slowed down tremendously and I tried to land it. Had I achieved the higher air speed, I would have landed it without trivial landing gear damage, which I fixed it already. I thought to go for APC 17X6, but I'm gonna use the same prop as I was using Xoar 17X6 beechwood.

I have no idea how to retard or advance the ignition curve and Ernie advised me on a different thread a very simple way to retard or advancing the throttle curve as I'm contemplating of buying XYZ 20 for my next plane Seagull Sea Fury.

This week I won't be able to fly as I'm going to Nashville Tennessee for 9 days on my company's project, so two weeks I won't be able to fly as I'm so much regular of flying and don't wanna miss a day[:@]

Guys I truly appreciate your help and suggestions. I hope to learn it consistently.

Thanks

Mody
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Old 01-29-2013, 03:08 PM
  #6364
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

Mesaflyer,
No intent to argue here. Really. Sorry for coming off that way? I'm agreeing with what you're saying, but possibly confusing the discussion with more information regarding a different problem with very similar symptoms.

Mody,
Try to get it dialed in. Start over with your tuning if you need to? If that idle hang/lack of reliable idle speed thing becomes a big deal for you, put a module on it to make things much simpler. Don't worry about the timing thing. You can come back to that later once you've got a little confidence/familiarity built up? What's going on there not very likely going to cause the engine to die on you or cause you other issues. It's a fine tune kind of thing?

Stop reading this forum until you get some stick time on that plane!
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Old 01-29-2013, 04:38 PM
  #6365
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

You can getTygothane polyurethane C210 formulation for gas and diesel fuel, tank bottles, Walbro clunks, and fittings from Matt rcmaster199@aol.com
I got theTygothane polyurethane C210 gas tubing from Matt and it is very flexable and will stay that way.
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Old 01-29-2013, 06:01 PM
  #6366
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ahicks

Mody,
Try to get it dialed in. Start over with your tuning if you need to? If that idle hang/lack of reliable idle speed thing becomes a big deal for you, put a module on it to make things much simpler. Don't worry about the timing thing. You can come back to that later once you've got a little confidence/familiarity built up? What's going on there not very likely going to cause the engine to die on you or cause you other issues. It's a fine tune kind of thing?

Stop reading this forum until you get some stick time on that plane!
ahicks,

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to try again to fine tune it and I can understand as well this motor is in a phase of break in, so I gotta cut it some slack. I'd fine tune it again and see where it goes. As I mentioned that I'm going outta town on a project thru my company so upon my arrival, I'd hopefully have my props, I'd balance them, and have this thing fly again. I'm gonna run the two gallons on it though 6 to 7 tanks already been run thru it and once I'm done with the whole two gallons, the demeanor of the motor would certainly change, if still it stays a pain in the butt, I'd then think about changing the module.

Thank y'all once again for your support.

Mody
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:39 PM
  #6367
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)


Quote:
ORIGINAL: mesaflyer

armody (and others),
I don't post on here too much anymore, but still surf once in awhile. If you do a search on here you will find all kinds of info on the DLE 20 with the #4 ignition, and the timing advance. But, if you go to pge 180 of this thread and look at post 4480, you will see my post way back when regarding the timing. The link to the YouTube video that my son made is still there. On the video you will see that I am making very small throttle adjustments with the trim tab of my radio.

Lots of people will say that you can fix that timing issue with proper linkage set-up and proper tuning of the engine. We'll, you'll see that I just changed my ignition. That to me is the easiest way to fix the problem, becasue my Extra was a SOB to land with the stock ignition.

The DLE 20 was my third gasser, and I can say if it had been my first, I probably would never buy another gasser. It was very frustrating at first. That's why Jody sent me the ignition.

Once you see the video, you'll understand why.

One other thing, the ''experienced'' engines guys at my club helped me a lot with my first two gassers. So when I had them take a look at my DLE, they all just shook their heads. At the time, none of us at the club knew about the automatic timimg advance. It's a real thrill landing an Extra at 3400 rpm, and then watch it drop to 1800 all by itself at 10 feet above the ground and just about nose in.

It is soooooo much fun to fly now.

Good luck
Thats what I have been telling them for years but they do not believe me.O-well what do I no.Only built ignitions for 30 years.
Grumpy no two. BCCHI AMA 2500
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Old 01-29-2013, 10:48 PM
  #6368
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ahicks

Mesaflyer,
No intent to argue here. Really. Sorry for coming off that way? I'm agreeing with what you're saying, but possibly confusing the discussion with more information regarding a different problem with very similar symptoms.

Mody,
Try to get it dialed in. Start over with your tuning if you need to? If that idle hang/lack of reliable idle speed thing becomes a big deal for you, put a module on it to make things much simpler. Don't worry about the timing thing. You can come back to that later once you've got a little confidence/familiarity built up? What's going on there not very likely going to cause the engine to die on you or cause you other issues. It's a fine tune kind of thing?

Stop reading this forum until you get some stick time on that plane!
You can tune till the cows come home but the DL20 will run like crap untill you change the ignition.That is if you have the no# 4 Ign.All you have to do is look at it with a timing light and the problem is very easy to see.
BCCHI
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:05 PM
  #6369
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

Please tell us about your timing light. Is it the automotive type that simply runs from the spark plug cap, through the light, and then to the spark plug? I thought the shielded type plug wire we use kept a timing light from working somehow. Hey, if a timing light works that easily, a person could mount a degree wheel right between the prop and the hub, and take a look at your timing while it's running instead of static, by hand.
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Old 01-29-2013, 11:33 PM
  #6370
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

Guys,

Don't wanna go off topic here, but I wanted to ask y'all. I'm going to Nashville, TN for 9 days on a project thru my company. I'd be staying in hotel in Downtown area. Is there any good hobby shop around that area not very far where I can hang around and may buy some stuff like Xoar props and other stuff

I didn't wanna start a separate thread, I thought I'd ask here. If I don't get the right information probably, I'd start a new thread

Thanks

Mody
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Old 01-30-2013, 03:44 AM
  #6371
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

Hey armody,maybe u can take a small electric park flyer[8D]
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:33 AM
  #6372
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

Please tell us about your timing light. Is it the automotive type that simply runs from the spark plug cap, through the light, and then to the spark plug? I thought the shielded type plug wire we use kept a timing light from working somehow. Hey, if a timing light works that easily, a person could mount a degree wheel right between the prop and the hub, and take a look at your timing while it's running instead of static, by hand.
Ernie, I have used a older Sears timing lite that is 12 volt powered. I use a very small strand of copper wire and place it on the sparkplug tip so the cap when shovedon plug, holds it there. This give a good place for the pick-up wire to work the timing lite. Works great! I have used it on flywheel mags too...some do have advance....which was a surprize too me. I even held a camera and the flash from lite on the prop...."frooze" the motion of the prop and in the photo the prop arc was a blur. Capt,n
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Old 01-30-2013, 05:56 AM
  #6373
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)


Quote:
ORIGINAL: bcchi


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ahicks

Mesaflyer,
No intent to argue here. Really. Sorry for coming off that way? I'm agreeing with what you're saying, but possibly confusing the discussion with more information regarding a different problem with very similar symptoms.

Mody,
Try to get it dialed in. Start over with your tuning if you need to? If that idle hang/lack of reliable idle speed thing becomes a big deal for you, put a module on it to make things much simpler. Don't worry about the timing thing. You can come back to that later once you've got a little confidence/familiarity built up? What's going on there not very likely going to cause the engine to die on you or cause you other issues. It's a fine tune kind of thing?

Stop reading this forum until you get some stick time on that plane!
You can tune till the cows come home but the DL20 will run like crap untill you change the ignition.That is if you have the no# 4 Ign.All you have to do is look at it with a timing light and the problem is very easy to see.
BCCHI
With all due respect, there are way too many of us having too much fun with the engine the way it was shipped for me to agree with a blanket statement like the one you're making. Can it be improved on? Sure, and in that light, I'll agree with you.

Telling somebody that the engine they've been having a blast with is actually running like crap, and the only way to make it right is to replace the module, may be seen as questionable advice? Telling somebody that's struggling trying to get their engine running that the module will "fix" it not much better....

If you can't make it run to your satisfaction replace the module. That should simplify things for you. Is a new module a requirement? No, not hardly.
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Old 01-30-2013, 07:24 AM
  #6374
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)


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ORIGINAL: ahicks


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ORIGINAL: bcchi


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ORIGINAL: ahicks

Mesaflyer,
No intent to argue here. Really. Sorry for coming off that way? I'm agreeing with what you're saying, but possibly confusing the discussion with more information regarding a different problem with very similar symptoms.

Mody,
Try to get it dialed in. Start over with your tuning if you need to? If that idle hang/lack of reliable idle speed thing becomes a big deal for you, put a module on it to make things much simpler. Don't worry about the timing thing. You can come back to that later once you've got a little confidence/familiarity built up? What's going on there not very likely going to cause the engine to die on you or cause you other issues. It's a fine tune kind of thing?

Stop reading this forum until you get some stick time on that plane!
You can tune till the cows come home but the DL20 will run like crap untill you change the ignition.That is if you have the no# 4 Ign.All you have to do is look at it with a timing light and the problem is very easy to see.
BCCHI
With all due respect, there are way too many of us having too much fun with the engine the way it was shipped for me to agree with a blanket statement like the one you're making. Can it be improved on? Sure, and in that light, I'll agree with you.

Telling somebody that the engine they've been having a blast with is actually running like crap, and the only way to make it right is to replace the module, may be seen as questionable advice? Telling somebody that's struggling trying to get their engine running that the module will ''fix'' it not much better....

If you can't make it run to your satisfaction replace the module. That should simplify things for you. Is a new module a requirement? No, not hardly.
Ahicks, sorry for the "argue" sentence. I did not mean to come off that way. It's just that everytime I have tried to explian this, someone several hundred miles away from me always wants to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. So I guess I'm a little defensive, and really shouldn't be. My mistake.

Your statements above are a perfect way to sum up this engine combo. I absolutly love mine, now that I changed the ignition. I did try several times and many different ways, like changing the timing, changing the linkage, adjusting the needles a 1/16 at a time, etc. to make it work with the stock ignition. It just was no fun on my Extra. On a big floating plane like a Four Star, it would be fine. But I needed a little more precise throttle control on my Extra.

Armody, do a internet search for hobby stores in the area you will be in. I recenly changed work locations and searched (on line) for hooby stores and found a great store with great customer service. It's a mile from my work and I didn't even know it existed. I prefer the LHS more than on line purchasing, but I do both. Good luck
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Old 01-30-2013, 08:27 AM
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Default RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

kopflyers,

Great suggestion, I wish I had a park flyer though[&o]

mesaflyer, I looked up on the internet could not find anything. Probably I'd look up again and lets see if I find anything.

Thanks

Mody
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