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  1. #6376
    armody's Avatar
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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    kopflyers,

    Great suggestion, I wish I had a park flyer though[&o]

    mesaflyer, I looked up on the internet could not find anything. Probably I'd look up again and lets see if I find anything.

    Thanks

    Mody
    It's great2 keep flying invariably. Hitec Aurora9 2.4 GHz, Yak 54-120 XYZ 20, MXS-R RCG 20 (AMA Member)

  2. #6377

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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    FWIW... I also was just trying to explain whats happening causing this poor transition back down to idle while attempting to land. Hopefully then anyone having a problem with this engine would have an understanding of whats occurring, and then have the knowledge to deal with it.

    Now it might be my explanation needs some work??? LOL

  3. #6378
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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    Thanks to everyone for all the information. These forums are a great source of information. I just want to make sure I have it correct.


    There are two behaviors that people have been discussing here. Hanging and step.


    Hanging: As I understand it from reading is that the #4 version of the ignition module has a control programmed to hold the RPM up for a while when you throttle down to allow the prop to cool the engine since the ambient air will not cool the engine when the plane is flying slow. This can be a problem when coming in for a landing when you throttle down and the engine does not return to an idle in time before you run out of runway. This is not a problem that will cause the engine to die if it is tuned correctly. If you have the #4 ignition module you can replace it with the RCexl  module which will work with most all DLE engines. The replacement is only needed if this hanging is bothering you. One question is what DLE engine models have this built in. DLE 20cc for sure but what about the DLE 30, 35, 50 55 etc. 


    Step:  Is this the point when the timing advances. Do I understand that the timing advances fully at around 2200. And there is not really a curve. This can mean that if you advance or retard the throttle the engine can jump RPM up or down. Is this just ignition module #4 or all modules. Also only for DLE 20cc or all sizes. If tuned correctly then this is just a behavior that that will not cause the engine to die or cause any other problems.


    Thanks larry


  4. #6379

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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)


    ORIGINAL: nikonlarry

    Thanks to everyone for all the information. These forums are a great source of information. I just want to make sure I have it correct.


    There are two behaviors that people have been discussing here. Hanging and step.


    Hanging: As I understand it from reading is that the #4 version of the ignition module has a control programmed to hold the RPM up for a while when you throttle down to allow the prop to cool the engine since the ambient air will not cool the engine when the plane is flying slow. This can be a problem when coming in for a landing when you throttle down and the engine does not return to an idle in time before you run out of runway. This is not a problem that will cause the engine to die if it is tuned correctly. If you have the #4 ignition module you can replace it with the RCexl Â*module which will work with most all DLE engines. The replacement is only needed if this hanging is bothering you. One question is what DLE engine models have this built in. DLE 20cc for sure but what about the DLE 30, 35, 50 55 etc.Â*


    Step:Â* Is this the point when the timing advances. Do I understand that the timing advances fully at around 2200. And there is not really a curve. This can mean that if you advance or retard the throttle the engine can jump RPM up or down. Is this just ignition module #4 or all modules. Also only for DLE 20cc or all sizes. If tuned correctly then this is just a behavior that that will not cause the engine to die or cause any other problems.


    Thanks larry

    Larry
    Your post is a perfect example of mis-information.
    I'm I able to make this more clear, I'll give it a try:

    The DLE 20cc engine comes standard with the DLE #4 module built for DLE by RCexel.

    The DLE 30cc & 55 comes standard with the DLE #1 module built for DLE by RCexel.(these are the only engines I bought new so I can verify only these three).

    Of important note on these two ignitions is that the #1 module has Bill Carpenters auto advance ignition timing built to simulate a steady mechanical advance. While the #4 has a single setpoint all in timing advance.

    Here in the market we are not privelge to why this was done. Only that some users of the 20cc have a difficult time with this

    Now I have to speculate here a little from my field observations.

    Many new to gas engine users have come into the market. Your post is an example of some of the mis-information some of them have.

    In the #4 there is no program to hold the engine at an RPM for cool down(cool down is best achieved with a slightly rich LSN). The program simply calculates the RPM and retards it below a setpoint or advances it above the set point.

    If you add in the problems of learning to tune gas engines along with the power production vs butterfly position and now the "STEP". All things new to gas people do not understand yet.

    You can see where much of these issues get their facts distorted. However in this long thread somewhere is almost all the information anybody will ever need on this 20cc engine. Much of the most useful info is update on the first page.

    A properly setup and tuned engine no matter what should not die.

    I hope this is clear. Any questions please ask.


    Oops!

  5. #6380
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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    OK, thanks I understand now.

    I checked my ignition modules and these are the markings. I Assume the n# is the number we are talking about. And the 4# is the one with single setpoint all in timing advance and all the others have the curve to match a mechanical curve.

    20cc 4#  Model A-01
    20cc 4# Model A-01
    20cc 3# Model A-02
    30cc 3# Model A-01
    35cc-RA 6# Model A-02
    55cc-RA 5# Model A-02

    The 20cc airplane I am flying now has the 3# Model A-02 ignition and it seems to have a curve equal to a mechanical curve. The 30cc and 35cc also seem that way but I will have to run them and see how they seem to react. I haven't run the 55CC-RA yet.

    BTW, I enjoy all of the planes and am just interested in getting the most reliability out of them and being able to understand enough to help others.

    larry



  6. #6381

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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    Wow Larry, all those new #'s ( 5 & 6 ) are going to add new confusion to the mix. I wonder how their advances are setup?

    What fun!

    Have you run the RA 35 and 55's?
    Oops!

  7. #6382
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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    I have run the 35cc-RA and it is a great engine. i haven't done anything to it and it runs great. I haven't even changed the low or high adjustment. May need to make some minor adjustments as it gets more time on it. I am waiting for the plane to mount the 55cc-RA on. Will startbench running it to start the break-in while I am waiting for the airplane which is the Areoworks 55cc Yak 55M.

  8. #6383
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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    One quick question. The instructions with my DLE 20 say Not to break it in on the bench or it will shake it self to pieces. Is this still true. Don,t have a plane for it yet but would like to run it at least a little.

    thanks,Dick.
    dwreel
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  9. #6384

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    RE: DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    on my gas engine when i have the throttle stick on the transmitter 1/2 open the engine is running full throttle >> if i push the stick further the engine dies out>>>>any one might know why> thank you

  10. #6385
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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    Thanks for the info Capt'n. Sounds like there are 2 types of timing lights then. The old type I remember where the high voltage lead went "through" the timing light to fire it. And John's much better type that has a power source and the spark plug wire simply triggers it. Cool.



    ORIGINAL: captinjohn


    ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

    Please tell us about your timing light. Is it the automotive type that simply runs from the spark plug cap, through the light, and then to the spark plug? I thought the shielded type plug wire we use kept a timing light from working somehow. Hey, if a timing light works that easily, a person could mount a degree wheel right between the prop and the hub, and take a look at your timing while it's running instead of static, by hand.
    Ernie, I have used a older Sears timing lite that is 12 volt powered.Â* I use a very small strand of copper wire and place it on the sparkplug tip so the cap when shovedÂ*on plug, holds it there. This give a good place for the pick-up wire to work the timing lite.Â* Works great!Â* I have used it on flywheel mags too...some do have advance....which was a surprize too me.Â* I even held a camera and the flash from lite on the prop....''frooze'' the motion of the prop and in the photo the prop arc was a blur.Â* Capt,n

  11. #6386
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    RE: DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    First, it sounds like you need to change your throttle geometry or tx curve so that 1/2 travel on the stick gives you less rpm's. If it is deadsticking after half throttle it might be too lean on the HSN, have a filter, or fuel delivery problem.

    ORIGINAL: oneaew@msn.com

    on my gas engine when i have the throttle stick on the transmitter 1/2 open the engine is running full throttle >> if i push the stick further the engine dies out>>>>any one might know why> thank you

  12. #6387
    armody's Avatar
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    RE: DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)


    ORIGINAL: oneaew@msn.com

    on my gas engine when i have the throttle stick on the transmitter 1/2 open the engine is running full throttle >> if i push the stick further the engine dies out>>>>any one might know why> thank you
    Last week I encountered the same problem like oneaew. It happened right after second flight when I tweaked both LSN and HSN. Hadn't I done that, I would not have encountered the problem and the dead stick up in the air.

    Since I'm going outta town for 9 days, and once I'd get back, I'd have my prop, get it balanced and as I had been advised by many of you, that I'd close all the way to stop both LSN and HSN, then I'd open it up 1/8 in my understand one full turn and then 80% of the turn if I'm right, as per instructions in the manual, since I started off directly from Klotz synthetic oil and motor is still in the break in process so it's taking longer than usual to get it settled down.

    I'd keep y'all posted and it's good a lot of new information is coming up[8D]

    Mody
    It's great2 keep flying invariably. Hitec Aurora9 2.4 GHz, Yak 54-120 XYZ 20, MXS-R RCG 20 (AMA Member)

  13. #6388

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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    I believe that on the New engines 35 RA 55 RA that the voltage that the ignition can handle has been increased beyound 6 volts.

    Bruce

  14. #6389
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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    I have updated the chart on the models to include the voltage

    20 4#  Model A-01 6V
    20 4# Model A-01 6V
    20 3# Model A-02 8.4V
    30 3# Model A-01 6V
    35-RA 6# Model A-02 8.4V
    55-RA 5# Model A-02 8.4V

    I have been using 2S 8.4V Li-ion batteries without any regulators on the engines that can take 8.4v.

  15. #6390

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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    To my knowledge the #4 that's 6v. is the troublemaker with the "step" at/around 2200 rpm. That's what comes with the DLE 20's. - or used to anyway. I don't know anything about the 8.4v model. Are the new ones coming with that now?

    The #3 6v. module, I'm pretty sure has the same "step", but it's at 25 or 2600 and isn't any trouble at all on the DLE 30's. Most won't even know it's there? Still, I would not buy a #3 module to replace the troublesome #4 module.

    Any other Excel (or Excel knock off) module, other than the #3 or #4, as long as it fits a CM-6 plug you're good to go. It'll plug right in and run as is.

    I'm fresh out of thoughts to help distinguish between problems associated with the timing step vs. those caused by engine temp./mixture. The fact there are 2 different problems so closely related is what makes this timing thing such a big deal with guys coming up to speed with gas. Guys with experience even struggle with it the first few times they run into it - even without this # 4 module in play!

    It's hard to improve on kmeyers advice to just keep it rich on the idle. If it's a smooth idle you've got, it's too lean. Should be kind of lumpy, uneven when right. I would add that keeping the idle speed down below 1900 or so will also help. Higher can aggravate the trouble.

    There is some help available for those messing with the "all in at half throttle" issue. Another lesson for the gas newbies to get past. Here's the link, but it's located up in the sticky up at the top of the gas section here, titled "Newbie to Gas Information". First page, down near the bottom of post #22. There's a series of diagrams that demonstrate how you can set your linkage up to take care of the problem, or at least get it close enough to allow you to dial the rest in with your radio. Holler for help if you need it!

    http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8673009/tm.htm

    Mesaflyer, we're good! I get how frustrating this can get!

  16. #6391
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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    Thanks for the link to the Getting started forum. Great information there.

    Here is the chart with the dates printed on the side of the modules. I didn't get the 35cc-RA date because I didn't want to take the cowl off to look. But the date is somewhere in 2012 since the engine just came out towards the end of the year. The model A-02 is defiantly the model with 8.4V.

    20cc 4#  Model A-01   6V      Date 3/24/11
    20cc 4#  Model A-01   6V      Date 09/15/11
    20cc 3#  Model A-02   8.4V   Date 4/21/12
    30cc 3#  Model A-01   6V      Date 1/25/11
    35cc-RA 6# Model A-02 8.4V
    55cc-RA 5# Model A-02 8.4V   Date 7/10/12

  17. #6392
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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    >>> 20cc 3# Model A-02 8.4V Date 4/21/12 >>>

    Perhaps on the units dated 4/21/12 they have come to their senses and fixed the timing curve/step and voltage both at the same time?

    Nikonlarry, thanks for having so many engines and sharing. When you do something you do it right!

  18. #6393

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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)


    ORIGINAL: ahicks


    ORIGINAL: bcchi


    ORIGINAL: ahicks

    Mesaflyer,
    No intent to argue here. Really. Sorry for coming off that way? I'm agreeing with what you're saying, but possibly confusing the discussion with more information regarding a different problem with very similar symptoms.

    Mody,
    Try to get it dialed in. Start over with your tuning if you need to? If that idle hang/lack of reliable idle speed thing becomes a big deal for you, put a module on it to make things much simpler. Don't worry about the timing thing. You can come back to that later once you've got a little confidence/familiarity built up? What's going on there not very likely going to cause the engine to die on you or cause you other issues. It's a fine tune kind of thing?

    Stop reading this forum until you get some stick time on that plane!
    You can tune till the cows come home but the DL20 will run like crap untill you change the ignition.That is if you have the no# 4 Ign.All you have to do is look at it with a timing light and the problem is very easy to see.
    BCCHI
    With all due respect, there are way too many of us having too much fun with the engine the way it was shipped for me to agree with a blanket statement like the one you're making. Can it be improved on? Sure, and in that light, I'll agree with you.

    Telling somebody that the engine they've been having a blast with is actually running like crap, and the only way to make it right is to replace the module, may be seen as questionable advice? Telling somebody that's struggling trying to get their engine running that the module will ''fix'' it not much better....

    If you can't make it run to your satisfaction replace the module. That should simplify things for you. Is a new module a requirement? No, not hardly.
    OK fine with me. I no many fliers are running the #4 Ign and get along fine.The new RCEXL ignition is a complete new circuit and is good.Any one that is rated for the higher voltage should be OK.
    Youll never no how little I really care.The main thing to remember is this is a hobby have fun.
    BCCHI
    BC.

  19. #6394
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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    Valley View had a hand in developement with that 20cc DLE and Tom was in the factory at that time. After testing he and Jodi told them the step in that timing module had to go but for some reason they still left it that way. It was still a wildly popular engine and got lots of guys into gas, and obviously it flew lots of planes nicely. We would have killed for an engine like that a few years back.

  20. #6395

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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    I wonder after 6367 post if Jodi ever looks back and says to himself WHATHAVEDONE

    I think the best line that I have read so fair stats Stop reading this forum until you get some stick time on the DLE 20 !!!!

    not saying that some of it is not good but take it with a grain of salt but when it is 22 deg. and snow it is something to do !!!

    My 0.02 R/L


  21. #6396

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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    Bill, looking forward to trying out that new module. Anyone buy a DLE 20 lately? Was it shipped with the 8.4v module?

  22. #6397

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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    I spent about 20 minutes on phone with Phil in the service department  at Tower Hobbies this morning about the problem with the DLE 20 idle problem- he states they have recorded no complaints and have nothing in their database about any problemsJust maybe, if enough people called them at 217-398-0007 and complained they might get with DLE and replace the modules without us having to spend the bucks to replace them-Just a thought

  23. #6398

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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)

    I dont know if I need to replace mine yet, wont know until I try to run the engine after I did the repairs. The engine ran fine, a burp on the throttle would bring the idle down, but it wasnt very high either.  The high tension cable came out when the lane lost a wing.
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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)


    ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

    Please tell us about your timing light. Is it the automotive type that simply runs from the spark plug cap, through the light, and then to the spark plug? I thought the shielded type plug wire we use kept a timing light from working somehow. Hey, if a timing light works that easily, a person could mount a degree wheel right between the prop and the hub, and take a look at your timing while it's running instead of static, by hand.
    I use a timing light put out by a Co called Flaming River.Powered by twp D- cells .Need no ext batt.Part No is FR 1001.I have two of them one on my work bench and one on engine test stand.Made a plug wire adapter from a section of plug wire .a spakplug terminal and a spark plug wire clip to go on the spark plug. You have to run a ground wire from metal plug cap to engine some place. I use a big battery clamp to go on the RCEXL cap and a small alligater clamp on the engine end.The light has a clamp to go around your short jumper. It is a inductive pick up like most timing lights..Will work fine on your car also.I have had one for years no problems with them. I guess they are still around.Really tells you right now what timing is doing.
    BCCHI Grumpy no two.

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    RE: NEW DLE 20cc Gasser! (Data & Links 1st Post)


    ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

    Please tell us about your timing light. Is it the automotive type that simply runs from the spark plug cap, through the light, and then to the spark plug? I thought the shielded type plug wire we use kept a timing light from working somehow. Hey, if a timing light works that easily, a person could mount a degree wheel right between the prop and the hub, and take a look at your timing while it's running instead of static, by hand.
    I posted about my timing light but do n ot see it. I use a light from a company called Flaming River part noFR 1001.Uses two D-cells for power.Made a short jumper from short piece of plug wire spark plug terminal and top off a spark plug.You have to use a ground wire from plug cap to engine.
    BCCHI


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