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Black goo

Old 08-19-2010, 08:12 PM
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Edwin
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Default Black goo

I did a bad batch of fuel that resulted in black goo mess on my G62 and crrc40. I know, live and learn. I shoulda dumped it then but I continued to use it when in other planes. Both engines are back in different planes now but the 40 is a real problem since it goes on a ziroli stearman thats painted with WBC. I'm running stihl ultra at 40:1 now which cleaned up my 20cc, but I still have a long way to go to get the other two running clean. I've tried milder cleaners on the painted surface like Simple green but it only gets the light small specks on the paint without doing any damage to the paint job. Is there something I can use that wont damage the WBC paint job?
If I have to I'll run the engines on the test stand until they run clean like the 20. But at this rate, its gonna be a lotta gallons.
Edwin
Old 08-19-2010, 09:07 PM
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w8ye
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Default RE: Black goo

The guy I fly with uses "Mean Green" to get the stubborn black off but you better try it in a small area underneath first
Old 08-19-2010, 09:47 PM
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Truckracer
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Default RE: Black goo

Try mineral spirits paint thinner. This is a very mild solvent, it cuts petroleum residue and it will not harm water based finishes. Wipe on, scrub a bit then wipe off the excess. Good luck!

What in the world did you use for fuel that caused such a problem?
Old 08-19-2010, 10:20 PM
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Edwin
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Default RE: Black goo

I have mineral spirits. Will try that. Is mean green different from simple green? Havent heard of that one.

At the time I was using Penzoil. I really dont know what I did. Maybe doubled up on the oil when I mixed or something. Shoulda dumped it when I first saw it. But I'm generally a cheap ***** sucker and used it up thinking it would clear up. Dumb dumb dumb.
Edwin
Old 08-19-2010, 10:32 PM
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w8ye
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Default RE: Black goo

I don't think Mean Green is related to Simple Green? We get both at the discount drug store down the road from the house

http://www.meangreencleaner.net/Home.html

http://www.simplegreen.com/

Old 08-19-2010, 10:57 PM
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Tired Old Man
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Default RE: Black goo

Try using your fuel mix. It always removes the dark carbon from my planes. If your paint can handle it that is.
Old 08-20-2010, 08:35 AM
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Default RE: Black goo

Try ether (diesel starting fluid). It will clean anything and dry almost instantly. For normal clean up, I've found rubbing alcohol (90%) in a spray bottle to work the best.
Old 08-20-2010, 10:09 AM
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Default RE: Black goo

My experience is that rubbing alcohol (Isopropal alcohol) even at 90% is not a very effective solvent for petroleum based oils. I use Coleman lantern fuel which is basically naptha, whic h is basically cigarette lighter fluid (Zippo, not Bic butane). But, I do not know if WBU or latex is safe from this. Maybe try a small place and let stand a while. Another product to try is Goof Off. Good luck.

By the way, was the Pennzoil the outdoor 2 stroke oil, and have you had any other problems with it? I use the Pennzoil with Coleman fuel in my G23 with very good results.

Sincerely,

Richard
Old 08-20-2010, 10:32 AM
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Edwin
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Default RE: Black goo

Alcohol doesnt work on the goo. Goof Off does work. Thats what I used. It also takes a little bit of the WBC paint off. It was ok one time. But not many more, it would strip the paint off.

I used pennzoil for a few years with no problems. I just screwed up a mix and I honestly dont know what I did. Just speculating I got distracted and put a double dose of oil in. Cant think of anything else that would have done that. One of those, doh! moments that you hate to admit.

I have the 40 for the stearman on a test stand and will just run more of the stihl ultra synthetic mix I'm using now to clean it out. May take a couple more gallons. Sure wanted to fly the stearman this weekend and be ready for the clubs big bird. But better not to take chances on ruining the paint job.

The g62 is in my new sig sundancer. Its mylar and is easily cleaned up. The problem is the goof off is slowly taking the paint off the landing gear.
Edwin
Old 08-20-2010, 03:42 PM
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frieshoo
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Default RE: Black goo


ORIGINAL: Edwin

Alcohol doesnt work on the goo. Goof Off does work. Thats what I used. It also takes a little bit of the WBC paint off. It was ok one time. But not many more, it would strip the paint off.

I used pennzoil for a few years with no problems. I just screwed up a mix and I honestly dont know what I did. Just speculating I got distracted and put a double dose of oil in. Cant think of anything else that would have done that. One of those, doh! moments that you hate to admit.

I have the 40 for the stearman on a test stand and will just run more of the stihl ultra synthetic mix I'm using now to clean it out. May take a couple more gallons. Sure wanted to fly the stearman this weekend and be ready for the clubs big bird. But better not to take chances on ruining the paint job.

The g62 is in my new sig sundancer. Its mylar and is easily cleaned up. The problem is the goof off is slowly taking the paint off the landing gear.
Edwin
Two Gallons?

I don't know. I have run Penzoil 16:1 in a G62, and it wasn't too messy. (the G62 was older and well broken in).

Did you look inside the 40? Look at the piston for carbon, etc..?

I don't think you should be seeing a lot of black goo even at 8:1 Penzoil.

Old 08-20-2010, 04:35 PM
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Default RE: Black goo

Edwin,

Windex seems to also get the black gunk off planes. It's also reasonably kind on the covering
Old 08-20-2010, 06:16 PM
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Default RE: Black goo

Gumout injector/carb cleaner easily cleans the black goo off mine.
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Old 08-20-2010, 08:49 PM
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Default RE: Black goo

Edwin,

Did you try the mineral spirits yet? My workbench is painted with WBP and I use mineral spirits on it all the time. Has always worked great for me and it doesn't touch the paint. As you say, alcohol acts as a mild solvent on WBP.

I agree with whats been said about the oil amount. Even at twice the normal amount, the engine would run just fine (though the needles would be off a bit) .... the extra oil would tend to just wash out the carbon in the engine and muffler. Maybe thats what you mean by "goo?"
Old 09-02-2010, 08:36 PM
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dumorian
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Default RE: Black goo

I've had some black goo problems. One of the things I'm planning now, is to go back to regular 2-stroke oil. I don't think the synthetic varieties completely burn, or at least none that I have tried seem to. This leaves the black goo around.

I made one huge mistake of taking some advice and running some synth at double the recommended mix and about one gallon or less later, I suddenly had no start issues. This happened on three different engines. I did two EI upgrades, they ran a bit again and then after a few flights, they wouldn't start and run again. Finally, after pulling my hair out and a friend reading on a thread in here somewhere, I looked inside the plug hole and discovered a nice layer of black goo on the piston crown. I took one engine apart and cleaned it completely with brake kleen. Lubed it up good, put it back together, started running my new mix and no problems since. Note that the muffler needed to be cleaned as well, as the black goo was still getting on the plane. (sorry can't help with WB cleaning, but Plexus works great on plastic coverings... or any plexiglas cleaner polish for M/C helmet visors. It cleans and polishes and everything looks new again. The polish it leaves behind, makes the next cleaning even easier.)

Then, for the second one, I thought I could clean it through the plug hole, as brake kleen removed the stuff easily, with just a little brushing with a flux brush. I got it all shiney clean inside, but still struggled. So, after more grief and just not knowing, I took that one apart and did the same as the first. Same result... all cleaned up and running great.

The third engine seems to have uber spark and for whatever reason seems to be dealing with the goo better. So, I did the plug hole clean on it and have had success. Maybe it just didn't have as much gas through it. I can't really say.

My flying friend has been through the same problems now. Geez... it's 2010, you'd think they'd know how to make good 2-stroke oil by now?

Either way, I'm going back to something that 'burns'. I think the synth stuff is designed to not burn, but stay there (a good 'theory'). The one thing that is 'very' different with our use of these engines, and something that in particular the carbs were never designed to do, is that we are mostly running in mid-range. Think about it. Most 2-stroke engines with walbro like carbs are supposed to start and idle, and then normally they run at wide open... chainsaw, weedeater, leaf blower, etc. Idle a bit, then work a while wide open. With the bulk of the running at wide open, perhaps these synth oils just get blown out or whatever and do work well for those situations? In the case of motorcycles and such, the carbs and oil systems are pretty advanced versus what we run.

Also of note... changing oils can greatly change the power of the fuel. This is about the oil burning or not. So, select something... pick a ratio... be particular to replicate that every time and tune your engines with that mix. The power difference becomes obvious during a pull out from 3d hovering with a 40%er.

I did run across one supplier of gassers that seemed to feel the same way on this. For most of our engines, the best 2-stroke non-synth from a place like Wally World is way better than most synths. A great natural oil (I'm trying to chase down a supplier who stocks Belray at the moment) is as good as you can do. And somewhere between 30:1 and 50:1 is great. I have been doing 40:1 with no wear problems. Actually, I'm doing 3 ounces per gallon, or 42.6666:1. Most of my other recent lawn and garden machines, a Mantis and a Husky chainsaw, both recommended 50:1. I think my mix has plenty of oil as long as I run a properly tuned engine.

Do remember that a change in the oil used in the mix, does effect the power of the fuel and the tuning of the carb. Something as simple as changing your oil mix might create a lean situation and burn up an engine. One of our recent converts had to lean out their engine when going back to regular oil, which in my thinking means that switching the other way could only lead to a lean situation, as it would need to be richer to run right.

Also, oil companies love to pay for advertising. Just look at any Nascar. That really tells you a lot. Those engines only have to make it 500 miles. Anyway, payment to engine companies 'might' influence a recommendation. Might??? Ever notice how Husky says to use only their 2-stroke oil? Lawnboy.. same deal. Some of this can be that they have picked a good oil, but they never list any 'others' that are just as good. They get to sell oil or maybe get paid to sell a particular oil.
Old 09-02-2010, 09:01 PM
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Default RE: Black goo

OH, as if I didn't already post enough. The CRRC 40 engine has sort of a cup area near where the plug comes through. This catches this black goo. The symptoms will be an engine that starts, runs about 10 revolutions and quits. Just enough to keep you trying. Then, if you stay with it long enough, it might actually start and run. I have done this and had one of these cut off in flight under power. Until I cleaned it, this was a problem. Might start fine, then do this junk. The goo was forming a trace that was grounding out the spark. New plugs helped, but it got to the point of needing a new plug after every flight, even though the plug really didn't look bad. Maybe I was just disturbing the goo build up while changing the plug? We've had the same issues with Brillelli's, DAs, 3Ws and ZDZs. This pretty much ruined an entire year of flying my gassers for me.
Old 09-02-2010, 10:32 PM
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Default RE: Black goo

Do people really think 2 strokes perform clean combustion cycles? Do people really think the combustion of a fossil fuel can be accomplished without generating carbon?
Old 09-03-2010, 12:30 AM
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Default RE: Black goo

all my gas motors ive ever worked on have all had some carbon...the worst being the ones i used to run amsoil on 80:1
Old 09-03-2010, 01:32 AM
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Default RE: Black goo

Make sure to keep caustic cleaners like Mean Green, Superclean, and Simple green away from bare aluminum because it can corrode it very quickly.
Old 09-03-2010, 01:36 AM
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Default RE: Black goo


ORIGINAL: MetallicaJunkie

all my gas motors ive ever worked on have all had some carbon...the worst being the ones i used to run amsoil on 80:1


That is why Amsoil tells you to mix it at 100:1. Then add in the glow engine habit of running a richer mixture than needed and you end up with a carbon laden engine.


Ed Cregger
Old 09-03-2010, 02:13 AM
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Default RE: Black goo

I think of carbon as a hard baked on sort of blackish brown product. What I had was goo. Something like molasses in antartica. It washed off with little effort with the brake kleen. The carbon I've dealt with in the past was not this junk. This goo could easily move around, including to the plug area, which is at the bottom on my all my singles. I think it was gathering there during storage and there was an obvious v-shape across the top of the piston pointed at the plug. This coating had become maybe 0.5mm thick. This was still a fluid that to me should have burned, not been left behind as this goo.

When this goo made it out of the exhaust, it left definite little black spots on the model that were not so easy to clean off. Not the normal brown oily stuff like you get with regular 2-stroke oils. Also of note, when I was running this mix, there was never any smoke that could be easily seen. On my other mixes I do see at least some smoke under some circumstances... particularly after choke on start up.

Some carbon build up on the other hand can increase compression and add some power to an engine (a tiny argument for some carbon). I expect that and look forward to when that starts to build up. This goo... well, I guess it did add some compression, but engines that don't run right or start and run...
Old 09-03-2010, 03:20 AM
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Default RE: Black goo

Goo = Carbon powder + oil
Old 09-03-2010, 03:35 PM
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Default RE: Black goo

try amsoil powerfoam, excellent for cleaning cyclinders/pistons which have gummed up with carbon
test on the paint first though
Old 09-03-2010, 04:04 PM
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w8ye
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Default RE: Black goo

Best thing is not to get in the Amsoil trap in the first place.

Saw a friend fall for Amsoil - and then running it richer 80:1 - and then all the black goo - and then he changed to Redline at 50:1 - and he's now happy.

Has taken all flying season for the black to work its way out of the engine/muffler.
Old 09-03-2010, 04:56 PM
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Default RE: Black goo


ORIGINAL: w8ye

Best thing is not to get in the Amsoil trap in the first place.

Saw a friend fall for Amsoil - and then running it richer 80:1 - and then all the black goo - and then he changed to Redline at 50:1 - and he's now happy.

Has taken all flying season for the black to work its way out of the engine/muffler.


I`m in an obstinate mood today, so please make allowances.

New gas engines customarily spit black oil for a while, then magically, it clears up. This happens regardless of the brand of oil being used.

There was a time when 100:1 Amsoil was the hi-tech leader in synthetic oils mixed at less than 32:1. Sadly that might have been a while ago.

Most of the complaints that I have read/heard have been from commercial users. When you consider that our model engines seldom approach the use in hours that a homeowner places upon their utility engines, I think it likely that the average flyer will be happy with the performance that Amsoil provides.


Ed Cregger
Old 09-03-2010, 05:38 PM
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H. Wayne S
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Default RE: Black goo

WD-40. removes black goo, smoke fluid, all of it. Then follow with Windex. Satisfaction Guaranteed

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