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Tangerine?

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Old 12-10-2010, 08:54 PM
  #51  
j.gibson
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HOLY GUACOMOLE !!!!!!!! Ask a simple question and..............
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Old 12-11-2010, 06:02 AM
  #52  
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HA HA! John, I guess after Tom & Bobs post, the rest went to the FAR left of the course. At any rate it was a fun event and great to spend time and have fun with the guys. Good job to the RCACF Club & Dennis Obrien!
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Old 12-11-2010, 07:04 AM
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Back to post #3 on this thread. No new record has been set as the event is not an official AMA event till after January 3, 2011.We did have a ball flying 426 on the short course. Just an FYI I had a better caller than Grunk.
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Old 12-13-2010, 05:40 AM
  #54  
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101.95 in 426?
I think it's time to cut the tail off the dog again!
Race 424 at the NATS.

Always myself, Shorty Gauge

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Old 12-13-2010, 10:05 AM
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Default RE: Tangerine?

Jim,

It's not time to cut the tail off again. IF you want the times to be slower, run it on the long course.

DK
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Old 12-13-2010, 10:05 AM
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Here was the ballot used that was voted on for OUR district (7). All but 1 passed (#3) by 95% (Robert Rau you voted yes to these rules when you lived here in Florida).

I believe others heard about our rule change and saw the light and adapted the same rules through a voting process.

2010 Emergency Rule Change Proposals
Written by Gary Freeman Jr.



1. Allow an emergency rules change with this format in which we will vote to be acceptable by the majority of the membership and no changes can be made until the next official cycle of the year. (Sept. 30th 2010) IF THIS RULE DOESN’T PASS, NONE OF THE CHANGES MATTER.

Yes No




2. Go back to a standard-expert format as done in the past and allow any and all racers to enter the 424 class and race together. Points to be giving out in the same format as we have done in the past and we will separate the standard and experts only in standings. (This will bring more money to the clubs and I believe it will also help the new racers learn from the veterans. It also allows for guys to go back and forth based on equipment available).

Yes No




3. Above rule (#2) to also apply to 428 (SEMPRA)

Yes No





4. Establish a break-out time for 424 for guys to move to expert 424(not 428 SEMPRA). Will need to do some testing to get a good feel for a fair time. Once the standard pilot has broken the time 3 times he will have to move up to Expert 424. (This will keep guys from sandbagging to stay in and win the standard class.)

Yes No





5. Establish a break-out time for 428 (SEMPRA) Standard, for guys to move to expert 428 (SEMPRA) same as above (rule #4). Rule 3 must pass in order for this to take place.


Yes No



6. Eliminate the Nelson/Jett LS engines and go back to the Super Sport Jett engine only with carburetor. The engine MUST be totally BOX stock with NO changes, except allowing the shimming of the head, (NO shimming of the sleeve), due to the large air density changes we experience here in Fl


Yes No



7. Go back to the short course for both 424 and 428 (SEMPRA). (This will bring back a few clubs that can't handle the long course and also help make 424 more appealing to the faster guys). If we go to the short course you have eliminated the advantage of the composite airframe so that in itself will draw people in and the guys with composites can still race them (win-win) (no need to worry about co-existing with the Q40s. When held during the same weekend as a 424-428 race we will just run the short course event in the am and then move to the long course when they are done or vise versa) This will also be very helpful if a club is short workers we can help each other out.

Yes No





8. Go back to a max RPM rule for 424 and up the RPM to 17,000. The static RPM rule is unmanageable. All 424 pilots will fuel up and meet to have there engines run by a qualified person to peak the engine before the start of the race. Then at any time the engine can be rechecked. It is up to the pilot to have his motor rechecked in the event of a broken prop or engine change. It is also at the pilots own risk to run close to the max RPM and take the chance of going over.


Yes No
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Old 12-13-2010, 11:07 AM
  #57  
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Gary , You are wrong , I NEVER VOTE YES ON ANY THING .IM NOT A SEMPRA MEMBER , AND NEVER HAD BEEN .When i still lived in fla and All of this talked just started ,about this topic .SO i would love too see my vote of Yes on this PLz ?? ROBERT RAU
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:10 PM
  #58  
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Rob, I am not sure why you are on this soap box, but I bet every SEMPRA member that has read this knows you were standing right there when we were talking about all this and you were right there nodding your head yes with us.

I am not going to waste time turning this into a battle with you because quite frankly you aren’t worth the effort.

We saw a need for a change in our district and we voted as a group to make the change. Other districts followed and love it. Nothing will get races back to 40 + entries over night, but you have to make changes in the right direction first then you will start drawing people back in.
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Old 12-13-2010, 12:47 PM
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The numbers are already looking MUCH better.

Last year at tangerine we had 7 in 428 this year we had 12 in 426 and I would have been 13 (was stuck in AZ for work) so you can see that the number has almost DOUBLED in our district in just one year.

I see Barry West is back. Jimmy Lyons is also back. If we keep getting 1 or 2 racers to come back out then what we have done is exactly what we were trying to do.
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:11 PM
  #60  
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Gary , First off Yes i was there at the first talk about this rule change you stated in the above post. What i did and said yes to was to get a New district rep for Fla . So dont say some thing that is far from what was done and said . You know JR. And thats truth .You have showed me your true colors at the Nats last yr the way you talked down to me and so many others ,it shows right here in black and white who you really are . TO TELL A RACER THAT JUST MOVED UP FROM THE 424 CLASS TO THE 428 CLASS .IM NOT WORTH THE EFFORT ?? you put my name on that post not me . And this is how you represent yourself , sponsors, and as a CD director for racing . ROBERT RAU
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Old 12-13-2010, 01:21 PM
  #61  
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"I am not going to waste time turning this into a battle with you because quite frankly you aren’t worth the effort"

Has nothing to do with you being a new racer, think about all those times I helped you with test flying and motors and servos. Enough people know you and who you are and that you aren't worth the effort....I mean come on should we bring up the fact that you had to be pulled off of someone at a race. I have raced for 25 years and NEVER saw anyone put their hands on someone else..

I have posted my comments and will reply to comments related to the growth of racing.

Robert if you have questions or ideas I will respond to those as well, but again I will not argue with you because quite frankly you aren’t worth the effort.

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Old 12-13-2010, 01:44 PM
  #62  
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Gary , First off ,when a pilot walks in to some one else pit area and get in to my face and then chest pumps then puts his head to yours ,I did what i had to do .The rest is history .And as far as you helping me I HAVE ALWAYS THANK YOU FOR THAT AT THAT TIME IT WAS DONE .But this totally different from one to the other. I have nothing against this new 426 class ,i have a problem with how its being done and i have that right to say it, if right or wrong . And it started from this yrs format of the 2011 NATS program ,answer this for me , Should All classes be treated the same ??
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:03 PM
  #63  
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Default RE: Tangerine?

I am not sure what you mean by the same?

If you are talking about 428 not having the same time as 426 then the answer is we are lucky to have 428 at all. I had one half day of it as kind of a last blast because most DIDN'T want it at the nats AT ALL and I figured out a way to squeeze it in.

When Form 1 died they did the same thing. I can’t hold an event for 2 days on a class that is dyeing when I have 90% saying they want 426. If it was up to me I would have had 424 instead of 428 on Sat, but it didn’t work out.

Also I will post this again in its own post, but there are protest already in for the SS conversions and if it keeps going like it is they will soon not be allowed at the nats or any AMA race. Just food for thought…
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:31 PM
  #64  
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Default RE: Tangerine?

Gary, try this format for the Nats , do 6 rds of 424,426,428 ,422 ???
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Old 12-13-2010, 03:07 PM
  #65  
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This is a fun thread ... First off....Freeman Jr... I don't see how you can run 3 events at the Nats dude. I'd just bail on the 428 stuff. Run the 426 and 422, you know they will pull more entries. Maybe Jim Allen could treat this years Winterfest as the 428 Nationals, I understand he will run the class if he gets enough entries (and NO I don't know how many "enough" is to run the class).

You know change is never easy. We've seen it in F1 and Q15 changing to Q40.. you just can't make everyone happy, even though we try very hard. But in the case of 428 and 426, it's going to be the easiest transition that I've seen in my short time in racing. You can use the same plane as 424. You just need to spend the extra $170 on the Jett engine and you are on your way. Any district can run long or short course, just take a poll at the next race and decide what the guys want to do.. If the newer guys that are moving up want slower times to help get used to things, run the long course. simple!

I also feel for the guys that have 428 Nelson or Jett motors (Rob Rau).. I see your points and views, being the NMPRA is moving away to a new generation class. But I also see the point where the new complains about $475 LS engines, which we heard all the time when those came out. So I have to applaud the move by our committee to engineer a new class, and thank Dub Jett for stepping up and finding a way to make a motor for $250 bucks.

I too have engines from FAI, Q40, and 428 and I can never use again. It sucks to see it all sitting there. Even those steel back plate spinners that were forced on us, hell I have 4 of those. But I'm committed to adhere to the rules and classes listed for me to race. I voice my opinion to my AMA rep, and move on. I just don't see the sense in hammering all this out when it's not going to do any good for me personally. I like to race 3 pole pylon, and whatever class has the most entries...that's what I'll race. I certainly don't have a ton of money, so I have ONE jett motor to get me through the Winterfest. I can't afford the composites, so a long time ago we made our own model. There are good wood kits that are way better than the Viper. So just ask and we can point anyone in the right direction.

The Tangerine was a blast. I got stomped in 426.... I don't know why I was slower? I flew a Vortex like I always do. I seemed to be turning the same ground rpm as Dub, Helsel, Grunk, Scott.. so I just need to maybe raise the head and find some unload? Or I just need to work harder on flying better. They all out-flew me!

Lastly.. It will take some time, maybe years for the number of racers to pick back up. Economy is tough like most have said.

Cheers boys!

RB
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Old 12-13-2010, 04:00 PM
  #66  
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Shorty Gauge, they can't run 424 at the Nats. There would be too many entries and not enough time to run it. Too many average modelers would enter because of the inexpensive engines and such and they would be over run with contestants!!! Do the math! Look at the ratio of 424 to other classes in local races.

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Old 12-13-2010, 04:21 PM
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If someone wants to run 424 at the Nats, someone needs to step up and offer to CD it...

untill that happens, it will never be a reality.
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Old 12-13-2010, 06:55 PM
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I am responding to Luv to Race response - - I agree with him totally. I haven't raced 3 pole 424/428/422 in 5 years plus, but I applaud the 426 class. It will make it better. More clubs can sponser with the short course. As a matter of fact, I think the typical venue should be 424 short, 426 short, and EF1 short - - that way you are covering basically three classes in one day - - better off yet, do away with 424 and have 426 short with a carb and EF1 short. Makes a race day real short and easier to manage.

Sorry guys, but the long course is "Passe" so to speak. We have to roll with the times. If you want to practice FAI or Q40 long course so be it, but that is not representative of what most of the clubs in the country can support.

By the way, has anyone seen the recommended field layout by AMA is? It does not even come close to what we require to hold a 3 pole course.

Also, you persons that speak against this 426 ever CD'd or help set up the course. I have! And it is pain in the butt. So any new comers come in and comment, I applaud your comments - - you want to go faster, I was there once. But until you actually put your energy before a race setting the "damn" 3 pole course up, getting judges ready, instructing them, and getting them up to "snuff", you have no room to talk. Trust me - - the faster the racing, the worse the judging, unless you have the same group doing it two to three times a year, and where are you going to find a group, that is familiar with RC flying, to do this 2 to 3 times a year (maybe in Phoenix)? I can think of a lot of other things I would be doing in their shoes, like flying myself at another local site.

Sorry NMPRA, it used to be a $2000 weekend for clubs to hold your events, and that was in the 70s. It is now only $1000 at best in today's dollars. 426 is the right step, but it will take time like someone said earlier in their post - - there is no silver bullet.

Mike W
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Old 12-13-2010, 08:22 PM
  #69  
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By the way, let me further respond - - I think keeping 428 is a load of "junk" or whatever you want to call it. You have some willing die hard people willing to convert to 426, (like buy a $250 quality engine) and then you have the idiots claiming it is costing them too much money to switch over. Damn, I used to go thru NemiQs like it was Cotton Candy and still did not make it to the NATS. What a damn cop out. You guys with your 428 Nelson Long Stokes, just let it go and use the engine as a paper weight. Don't try to make excuses like this is costing you more money than you can afford - - trust me in your hey day, you spent money on a new engine every year to remain competitive. This is "Damn" ridicoulous. Let's just make 426 to 428. Give it a break and don't be a "JA"!

It seems very hard to spend money to go slower, but think about this, you will eventually be at some abandoned WWII airfield with your buddy and timing each other on a stop watch and saying "Remember When".

It is real easy to spend $400 on a new engine, - - but $250 on a slower engine? You are going to buy a new engine anyway so why not join the "Fray" and by that the "Wise Fray"

Mike W
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Old 12-13-2010, 08:27 PM
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I want to set the record straight for all that has read this POST . I do not have any Personal problems with this new 426 class . Moving from fla to Las Vegas 1 yr ago ,all this has happen after i left fla with this rule change with this new class . And it seems because i read the post for the nats ,and it said if any one has and question please speek up and I did ,This is the blunt of it for asking a simple question ?? WHY ARE THE RACING CLASSNOT BEING TREATED AS THE SAME . I have not done any personal attacks on any one , but when you put my name on some thing that is TOTALLY NOT TRUE im not going to let it go by with a word or two from me , to make sure to set the record straight .When another racer comes into your personal pit area and puts his hand on me and head buts me i have the right to DEFEND my self .And i did what I had to do . And thats the truth . I HAVE NEVER BEEN A MEMBER OF SEMPR THEN OR EVEN AT THIS TIME . ROBERT RAU
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:52 AM
  #71  
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After 428 has been eliminated how long before the rules are changed for 422 also? When will the nelson motors be considered illegal and any form for any class of racing? Or is the plan to make the long stroke illegal and hope that leads to all nelson motors being taken out of the picture?
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:24 AM
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Default RE: Tangerine?

422 does not need to be changed because the Jett LS 422 motor is competitive with the Nelson LS motors that are being used. The Nelsons will slowly fade away over time.

No need to do anything with 422 at this point.
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Old 12-14-2010, 10:08 AM
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Hopefully all the nelson motors that were being used in 428 can be converted so that they will be able to see a new life in 422, rather then ending up in the trash can.
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Old 12-14-2010, 11:37 AM
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ORIGINAL: RCMODERATOR

Hopefully all the nelson motors that were being used in 428 can be converted so that they will be able to see a new life in 422, rather then ending up in the trash can.
Thus the reason the AMA contest board decided to leave 422 alone for now.

DK
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Old 12-14-2010, 02:41 PM
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[Also I will post this again in its own post, but there are protest already in for the SS conversions and if it keeps going like it is they will soon not be allowed at the nats or any AMA race. Just food for thought…]

this is very disturbing? This sends a message that in the future the nelson motor will not be legal in any class, even though it is currently supported with parts and service by the manufacture. If people wish to continue using these motors they should be allowed, rather then forced to buy the jet.
Just because there are no new cases available does not mean there are not parts. Let them continue to use them as long as they can keep them running. Also there have been over 100 engines converted from ss to ls at a market value of around $40,000. With 100 in service that should met the requirement of commercial available. Why is there a movement to throw the N-40 under the bus? Just because there are no new cases at this time it gives the people that want this engine off the market, some straws to grab at to justify making it illegal. There are parts out there keep them running, if the right person comes along and saw the lack of supply maybe it could come it back in some form.

If there was enough demand and a stable market there might be a supply of new motors with similar performance to the N-40 emerge. You will cut the demand for motors by eliminating 428. This would be a barrier to entry for any manufacture that wishes to enter the market. By having 428 and 422 it would help spread the cost of tooling up to make a "nelson like" engine available again. There are plenty of companies that could invest and build this engine but if there is not enough demand or limited profit to be made no one will enter the market. This is a very risky market with all the uncertainty, rule changing and favorable treatment to a single manufacture at this time.

ShortyGauge, you are right if you want more new racers add 424 to nats, that truly is a low cost class that will bring new people to the sport. The logic that too many people would participate is flawed. Use this event as the jumping board to populate the other races in the future. That would bring more people in, slow things down for beginners, and is low cost. The only logical argument against this is that it is too slow for the experienced pilots or there is not time at the nats. With the amount of people racing ths class at local levels it seems many people like this speed and the nats CD should realize what will really bring people into the sport. Entry level events like 424 should be flown at the nats so that new pilots can experience the nats and will hopefully move up to faster classes in the future. This class may take time to run at the nats but could greatly benefit the sport over time by getting more pilots involved. What is more important giving exprience pilots 2 or 3 events to fly at nats or taking the time to fly a event like 424 to give the beginners 1 class to fly at the nats. Would a nats with 424 and 422 only be that offensive, or can the participants we already have be willing to give up a 428/426 class to make room for the new guys?

What would the story be if we made a list of all the total entry's nation wide for 426 vs 428 at all the local races. I do not know the answer to this but, Ithink this data should have been compiled by the people making decisions about what direction this is all going.Before we euthanize 428 lets use 2011 to compile this data and make a decision based on the facts of actually entry numbers at local and nationial events. Can this data be put on the board? This will prove which class in more supported. Iknow for a fact at some local races have had more entries in 428 than 426.

Just some food for thought....
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