Tangerine?
12-14-2010, 06:24 PM
#76
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Tangerine?
RCMOD,
The legality of the SS conversion has already been talked about in this post and it is in black and white what the concern is with it.
Beyond that here is a scenerio to think about. If a 424 guy wants to move up to 428 where could he buy a long stoke Nelson .40 "HE CAN'T" he would have to either buy a used one or find a used SS and pay to have it converted. Does that sound like the right thing for someone to have to do. For the cost of doing this you can buy 2 or even 3 BRAND NEW Super Sport JETTS.
This isn't about putting Nelson out, it is about looking out for the future of our event. I think it is pretty obvious why our district and many others adapted 426 as our/their event and if you read the ballot I posted on here it seems to make sense why it passed.
As far as the events at the nats it is not something I just come up with myself it is based on feedback from many racers who have been to the nats and are active racers. Like I said if it was up to me I would have had 424 on Sat and not 428. I was able to have Electric form 1 put in as an unofficial event and I am sure next year when 428 is gone 424 can and will be worked into the nats.
The poll you would like to start was done along time ago and that is why we now have a 426 class and why it will be the PREMIER Q500 event at the nats in 2011.
By the way why are you hiding behind a screen name?
The legality of the SS conversion has already been talked about in this post and it is in black and white what the concern is with it.
Beyond that here is a scenerio to think about. If a 424 guy wants to move up to 428 where could he buy a long stoke Nelson .40 "HE CAN'T" he would have to either buy a used one or find a used SS and pay to have it converted. Does that sound like the right thing for someone to have to do. For the cost of doing this you can buy 2 or even 3 BRAND NEW Super Sport JETTS.
This isn't about putting Nelson out, it is about looking out for the future of our event. I think it is pretty obvious why our district and many others adapted 426 as our/their event and if you read the ballot I posted on here it seems to make sense why it passed.
As far as the events at the nats it is not something I just come up with myself it is based on feedback from many racers who have been to the nats and are active racers. Like I said if it was up to me I would have had 424 on Sat and not 428. I was able to have Electric form 1 put in as an unofficial event and I am sure next year when 428 is gone 424 can and will be worked into the nats.
The poll you would like to start was done along time ago and that is why we now have a 426 class and why it will be the PREMIER Q500 event at the nats in 2011.
By the way why are you hiding behind a screen name?
12-14-2010, 06:27 PM
#77
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Tangerine?
I confess. I may be the father of this bas tard child called 426. I suggested it's creation in a RCU post three years ago, I just didn't think that anyone actually read RCU.
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_67..._4/key_/tm.htm
Oh the shame!!!!!!!!!!!
If anything, need to add a new level (say 426) where tuned pipes are added to TT40 engines to move up to the 140+ range as a stepping stone
Oh the shame!!!!!!!!!!!
12-15-2010, 07:49 AM
#81
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RE: Tangerine?
Guys, we didn't quite Nelson, NELSON QUIT US. 428 has not been destroyed by anyone but the fact that the engines are not made for the class anymore. If a new engine manufacturer stepped up and provided an engine and got it approved by AMA, 428 could continue. But at the same time, do we really need 2 180+ MPH expert classes and a 135 MPH beginner class with nothing in between? I say NO. 426 fills what racing needs to help a racer to be able to step up with what he already has plus a $250 engine.
But, the fact is, Henry Nelson said goodbye after many, many years and decided to retire. Who can blame him for wanting to do that?
Rob, come on bro. [&o]
But, the fact is, Henry Nelson said goodbye after many, many years and decided to retire. Who can blame him for wanting to do that?
Rob, come on bro. [&o]
12-15-2010, 07:52 AM
#82
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Tangerine?
Gary,
I think this decision will save quickie in the long run. Long before quickie was created, Formula One was the racing event. Most people don't remember the great engine debacle in F1 in the late 60's. Formula One was introduced around 1965 to great success. There were over 600 people in the NMPRA at that time, and articles and ads were in every magazine. Then K&B introduced the cast case "S" model, but only produced 101 copies which they handed out to 50 people. If you had this engine, you won your heat, every heat, every time. If you didn't have that engine, you had no chance, so you stayed home. The event nearly died as a result.
As to costs vs entry, it makes sense that people are cost sensitive. F1 was an expensive event when you used a plug a flight and $5 worth of fuel. Tolerable when a plug cost 50 cents, but then the plugs got to be $3-5 each and the numbers started to add up.
However you could also go though the records and see that as the speed climb, it also knocks down the numbers of people that compete. F1 started a downward spiral when times got into the 1:20 range. At the sub-teens time it was very difficult to break into, but doable.
For the record, Chip Hyde set the short course record in 428 at 56.49 in 1994. That was before APC props, or 15 years of airframe development. For that matter where I was racing at the time, the local non Nelson record was 1:12 on the short course and Fred's time was 1:18 (might be why he developed his props). He was a real student of the game at that time.
Anyway, setting the clock back, I wish we could to visit old friends again.
I think this decision will save quickie in the long run. Long before quickie was created, Formula One was the racing event. Most people don't remember the great engine debacle in F1 in the late 60's. Formula One was introduced around 1965 to great success. There were over 600 people in the NMPRA at that time, and articles and ads were in every magazine. Then K&B introduced the cast case "S" model, but only produced 101 copies which they handed out to 50 people. If you had this engine, you won your heat, every heat, every time. If you didn't have that engine, you had no chance, so you stayed home. The event nearly died as a result.
As to costs vs entry, it makes sense that people are cost sensitive. F1 was an expensive event when you used a plug a flight and $5 worth of fuel. Tolerable when a plug cost 50 cents, but then the plugs got to be $3-5 each and the numbers started to add up.
However you could also go though the records and see that as the speed climb, it also knocks down the numbers of people that compete. F1 started a downward spiral when times got into the 1:20 range. At the sub-teens time it was very difficult to break into, but doable.
For the record, Chip Hyde set the short course record in 428 at 56.49 in 1994. That was before APC props, or 15 years of airframe development. For that matter where I was racing at the time, the local non Nelson record was 1:12 on the short course and Fred's time was 1:18 (might be why he developed his props). He was a real student of the game at that time.
Anyway, setting the clock back, I wish we could to visit old friends again.
12-15-2010, 08:04 AM
#83
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My Feedback: (5)
RE: Tangerine?
RCMOD, To just say no more nelson engines allowed would hurt this sport. These events, 426 - 428 are in that transition mode,,, meaning having to RE-engine over to jett,,, profi is in there some where while some are running it. The majority are moving over to jett and thats gonna take time.
IMOP, going with 426 makes sense due to thats what people wanted,,, the pylon board listened,,, and now the 2011 rulings are in place to take effect shortly. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a jett 426 engine and those that haven t already will figure it out and have a great time with it or move on.
BV
IMOP, going with 426 makes sense due to thats what people wanted,,, the pylon board listened,,, and now the 2011 rulings are in place to take effect shortly. There's absolutely nothing wrong with a jett 426 engine and those that haven t already will figure it out and have a great time with it or move on.
BV
12-15-2010, 08:11 AM
#84
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RE: Tangerine?
Ihave two sport Jett engines on order and Iam afraid if my identity is exposed Iwill end up getting the slow ones.
My stuff has never came close to a 101, after seeing the results from the last race Ineeded to order new ones to stay competitive.
Or maybe I should put my Q-40 muffler on my sport Jett motor, that should get me close to 101. Has anyone tried this?
12-15-2010, 02:46 PM
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RE: Tangerine?
Gary,
the joke is that you missed the point of my last post. The rules for 426 were put together without any thought into the fact that you are trying to run a class with a de-rated motor. What I mean by de-rated motor is
purposely slowed down. Too successfully run a de-rated motor class, the first thing you need to do is decide on design specs and performance specs. This is important for two reasons, Contest Directors need a
set of specs to inspect the engine by. Secondly, with out design and performance specs there will be speed creep, which we are already seeing. Without these specs, what is a legal engine and how to does one inspect
for deviation? Why are the specs a secret and what max rpm should be seen with a known load? For example Iwas running my sport Jett engines and on accident put a Q-40 Jett muffler on a sport Jett engine and the engine picked up
1000 rpm. From a distance you cannot see the difference in the Q-40 and sport Jett muffler. You would not believe how it ran with a Nelson muffler on it. Anyone can get mixed up and who is checking this.
There needs to be a performance ceiling published so that the goals for 426 can be achieved, which are lower price and lower speed. This will stop the speed creep that we have already seen before the event has even been
made an official event. Based on the 1:01 we saw recently the speed is already very similar to 428, which has been called too fast. When the specs are fully developed and published hopefully we will see measures taken to
slow down to the levels talked about at conception. Iam not sure what the numbers should be, but 1:10 SC seemed to be where we started and was a good middle ground between 424 and 422. The 426 class has a lot of
potential and hopefully it will live up to the goals that where set when it was created. It would a shame if 428 is killed and the 426 basically ends up being the same speed.
PS: RIPMR.CHEN,
you will be missed
You were my hero and the only person that made sense on this board.
the joke is that you missed the point of my last post. The rules for 426 were put together without any thought into the fact that you are trying to run a class with a de-rated motor. What I mean by de-rated motor is
purposely slowed down. Too successfully run a de-rated motor class, the first thing you need to do is decide on design specs and performance specs. This is important for two reasons, Contest Directors need a
set of specs to inspect the engine by. Secondly, with out design and performance specs there will be speed creep, which we are already seeing. Without these specs, what is a legal engine and how to does one inspect
for deviation? Why are the specs a secret and what max rpm should be seen with a known load? For example Iwas running my sport Jett engines and on accident put a Q-40 Jett muffler on a sport Jett engine and the engine picked up
1000 rpm. From a distance you cannot see the difference in the Q-40 and sport Jett muffler. You would not believe how it ran with a Nelson muffler on it. Anyone can get mixed up and who is checking this.
There needs to be a performance ceiling published so that the goals for 426 can be achieved, which are lower price and lower speed. This will stop the speed creep that we have already seen before the event has even been
made an official event. Based on the 1:01 we saw recently the speed is already very similar to 428, which has been called too fast. When the specs are fully developed and published hopefully we will see measures taken to
slow down to the levels talked about at conception. Iam not sure what the numbers should be, but 1:10 SC seemed to be where we started and was a good middle ground between 424 and 422. The 426 class has a lot of
potential and hopefully it will live up to the goals that where set when it was created. It would a shame if 428 is killed and the 426 basically ends up being the same speed.
PS: RIPMR.CHEN,
you will be missedYou were my hero and the only person that made sense on this board.
12-15-2010, 04:00 PM
#88
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Tangerine?
RCMOD,
You don't have any of the facts right. 428 was about 4-5 seconds faster on the short course then the 1:01-1:02 we are doing. There is a Blue Print for the Sport jett and the motor has not changed AT ALL since it first came out. The very first race they did 1:02s and I did a low 1:03 with an all wood Q500. We have all seen that sometimes we go faster in someplaces then others. Here is a link to the report
http://www.nmpra.org/phpBB3/viewtopi...=SEMPRA#p14991
Now I know by all your jokes and your stupid MR Chen crap that you are just here to stir the pot. You have like 5 different screen names and you just like playing games.
When you are ready to make valid points and have a ligitmate profile please come back but until then stop wasting everyone's time. I hear Eharmony works well for lonely people.
You don't have any of the facts right. 428 was about 4-5 seconds faster on the short course then the 1:01-1:02 we are doing. There is a Blue Print for the Sport jett and the motor has not changed AT ALL since it first came out. The very first race they did 1:02s and I did a low 1:03 with an all wood Q500. We have all seen that sometimes we go faster in someplaces then others. Here is a link to the report
http://www.nmpra.org/phpBB3/viewtopi...=SEMPRA#p14991
Now I know by all your jokes and your stupid MR Chen crap that you are just here to stir the pot. You have like 5 different screen names and you just like playing games.
When you are ready to make valid points and have a ligitmate profile please come back but until then stop wasting everyone's time. I hear Eharmony works well for lonely people.
12-15-2010, 04:12 PM
#89
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RE: Tangerine?
Re: Mulberry JETT Short course racing report
by RSmith » Tue Mar 23, 2010 6:49 pm
Hi Guys,
For what it's worth, we don't have to say 'bye-bye' to the Nelson SS motor.
The SS Nelson is still a good option for certain districts or hot beds of pylon that may have a healthy installed base of Nelson SS motors. In case you have missed my previous lobbying for this, in District 3 in Canada, we fly the Nelson Q-500 SS motor using the de-tuned Nelson muffler (expansion chamber only) and fly on the short course.
Rocket wrote:
We use basically the same prop and get very close to the same rpm. Our average course time is 1:08-ish with a fastest time of 1:03 by Roy Andrassy. Ten-lap times vary with pilot skill, of course. I think the Nelson SS motor in this configuration on the short course could easily run with the Jett motor without complaints. Their performance is nearly identical.
Between the Jett and de-tuned Nelson SS, both of these motors provide a great racing solution for a slower Q-500 event and for all those with a bunch of Nelson SS's in their shop, they don't have to invest in buying a couple of new Jett motors. ... another $500 investment (for two).
Our district has been running the de-tuned Nelson SS for 3 or 4 years now with great success. New racers have come on board and adopted the motor. You can't wear it out in this configuration. I am told Henry Nelson still supports his motors with parts.
Randy S. Guys: This where I started and Randy is right on the money...thanks again Bryan B 79E
For what it's worth, we don't have to say 'bye-bye' to the Nelson SS motor.
The SS Nelson is still a good option for certain districts or hot beds of pylon that may have a healthy installed base of Nelson SS motors. In case you have missed my previous lobbying for this, in District 3 in Canada, we fly the Nelson Q-500 SS motor using the de-tuned Nelson muffler (expansion chamber only) and fly on the short course.
Rocket wrote:
the prop's we ran were 8.8x8 3/4. they turned between 18 and 18.5. the needled was easy and they were fast. the average time was 1.05's with Gary Freeman JR posting a 1.03
We use basically the same prop and get very close to the same rpm. Our average course time is 1:08-ish with a fastest time of 1:03 by Roy Andrassy. Ten-lap times vary with pilot skill, of course. I think the Nelson SS motor in this configuration on the short course could easily run with the Jett motor without complaints. Their performance is nearly identical.
Between the Jett and de-tuned Nelson SS, both of these motors provide a great racing solution for a slower Q-500 event and for all those with a bunch of Nelson SS's in their shop, they don't have to invest in buying a couple of new Jett motors. ... another $500 investment (for two).
Our district has been running the de-tuned Nelson SS for 3 or 4 years now with great success. New racers have come on board and adopted the motor. You can't wear it out in this configuration. I am told Henry Nelson still supports his motors with parts.
Randy S. Guys: This where I started and Randy is right on the money...thanks again Bryan B 79E
12-15-2010, 05:16 PM
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RE: Tangerine?
For all the 90 pct that still have the NELSON SS QUICKIE ENGINES , What a great post with REAL TRUE FACTS AND RESULTS TO GO WITH IT .Can you see and smell what the ROCKKKKKK IS COOKINGGGGG in his POT.
12-15-2010, 05:38 PM
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RE: Tangerine?
The old SEMPRA JETT ENGINES that where used in fla,back in the 1990s to make them so Called legal for this class there was a cost of $100.00 .It came with a NEW venturi ,muffler and it let the older engines that where laying on some one shelf Back to life for racing .IF you have a Nelson sitting on a shelf and want to be brought back to life ,the cost for a new muffler would be $60.00 . And any others dont have eather there cost would be $250.00 for a new Jett engine .HERE ARE THE COST WITH REAL FACTS to go with this .Would that for the JET engine fall under the wording CONVERSION ENGINE ??? for this new 426 class.
12-15-2010, 06:02 PM
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RE: Tangerine?
Garry: I appreciate your perspective and where it is coming from,
I still don't see where you guys are so rock solid on not letting anyone else who has these other motors run with the Jett, If there was a huge inbalance between the 2 of them I could see this, but I just don't see the diff as Randy stated in his note I copied???
I know that you and many of the racers from the east side have already sold your Nelsons, and basically planned this, but there are still hundreds if not more of the ss nelson that are out there, and could be converted easily to the non pipe configuration, and would't need new top ends or any of those things listed as they wouldn't be making the same power as with the pipe??
For those who don't have any of these or don't wish to take there chance on a used motor, they have the option of buying a brand new jett..for 250.00 +
I also don't understand the idea of locking out any other brand of motor from entering this new class??? Does this mean that we need to create a new class for every motor mfg that comes to the table??
I have been in the retail hobby business for all of my life, and I do know what it takes to keep a market happy, and why I have 10 differn't brands of wheels in stock (variety(peoples like to choose)) and fuel tanks etc!
I hate having to stock all of the $$ that it takes to be a good business partner for my customers, but I need to make it all available to keep the market happy.. It all comes down to being able to mix the new with the old... Thanks again for listening.. Bryan B 79 E
I still don't see where you guys are so rock solid on not letting anyone else who has these other motors run with the Jett, If there was a huge inbalance between the 2 of them I could see this, but I just don't see the diff as Randy stated in his note I copied???
I know that you and many of the racers from the east side have already sold your Nelsons, and basically planned this, but there are still hundreds if not more of the ss nelson that are out there, and could be converted easily to the non pipe configuration, and would't need new top ends or any of those things listed as they wouldn't be making the same power as with the pipe??
For those who don't have any of these or don't wish to take there chance on a used motor, they have the option of buying a brand new jett..for 250.00 +
I also don't understand the idea of locking out any other brand of motor from entering this new class??? Does this mean that we need to create a new class for every motor mfg that comes to the table??
I have been in the retail hobby business for all of my life, and I do know what it takes to keep a market happy, and why I have 10 differn't brands of wheels in stock (variety(peoples like to choose)) and fuel tanks etc!
I hate having to stock all of the $$ that it takes to be a good business partner for my customers, but I need to make it all available to keep the market happy.. It all comes down to being able to mix the new with the old... Thanks again for listening.. Bryan B 79 E
12-15-2010, 06:16 PM
#94
My Feedback: (2)
RE: Tangerine?
Robert,
Cooking ROCK, that explains ALOT. CRACK IS WHACK YO! Get help.
Q-500P-LS24 Muffler $84.00 Look it up.
The conversion issue with the nelson was the fact that material was removed from the case to allow for the larger LS sleve (OD). Dub did the $100 retro fit and took a hit to his pocket for us because he was bringing back a motor for us and wanted everyone to have the same stuff.
To Everyone else,
AMA 428 is still a valid rule book event. If you don't already have it go and get you CD licence and hold as many as you want. No one is stopping anyone from doing so.
The rules that are in place were voted on and it is a done deal. It wasn't something any one person did it was a board thing.
I haven't been on forums for a long time other then updates and photos and this is why. There are just a bunch (not ALL) of uniformed people blasting off at the key board without all the facts or people trying to make jokes that are misleading to a new guy.
Everyone of us has a board member we can call and voice our opinions too. If you waited till now it is TOO late. There is no way to make everyone happy. We made changes in our district and it spread, because I think most everyone saw it was time for a change..
Good luck to you all I have said my piece on this..
Sorry I have to update this because I was wrong about where the material was removed. Here is the e-mail I got on it. I have to assume it is correct because he says he is an engine specialist..
"Fact ; It is not the sleeve that is larger , it is the trench that is cut in the case .This is clearance for the larger stroke. This is where material is removed. kids……. J.Vaclav Engine Specialists logo coming soon."
Still this is not how the motor was accpeted.....
Cooking ROCK, that explains ALOT. CRACK IS WHACK YO! Get help.
Q-500P-LS24 Muffler $84.00 Look it up.
The conversion issue with the nelson was the fact that material was removed from the case to allow for the larger LS sleve (OD). Dub did the $100 retro fit and took a hit to his pocket for us because he was bringing back a motor for us and wanted everyone to have the same stuff.
To Everyone else,
AMA 428 is still a valid rule book event. If you don't already have it go and get you CD licence and hold as many as you want. No one is stopping anyone from doing so.
The rules that are in place were voted on and it is a done deal. It wasn't something any one person did it was a board thing.
I haven't been on forums for a long time other then updates and photos and this is why. There are just a bunch (not ALL) of uniformed people blasting off at the key board without all the facts or people trying to make jokes that are misleading to a new guy.
Everyone of us has a board member we can call and voice our opinions too. If you waited till now it is TOO late. There is no way to make everyone happy. We made changes in our district and it spread, because I think most everyone saw it was time for a change..
Good luck to you all I have said my piece on this..
Sorry I have to update this because I was wrong about where the material was removed. Here is the e-mail I got on it. I have to assume it is correct because he says he is an engine specialist..
"Fact ; It is not the sleeve that is larger , it is the trench that is cut in the case .This is clearance for the larger stroke. This is where material is removed. kids……. J.Vaclav Engine Specialists logo coming soon."
Still this is not how the motor was accpeted.....
12-15-2010, 07:18 PM
#95
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RE: Tangerine?
Just curious. I can count on my hands the number of times I went 1:01 or better in 428 on the short course. The average 428 times were not 4-5 seconds faster than 426, and is proven because the national record was 56.49, set at basically the fastest place in the country, Whittier Narrows, CA. Obviously people were not regularly bumping the national record, and I'd venture to guess that less than 10% of the racers ever went under 1:00. I think a little more work and more areas racing the class can see the 426 times drop to where they'll consistantely be at or under a minute. 426 is already very close to the times and speeds that 428 was at when it was decided it had to go to the long course. How is 426 going to be prevented from having to drop the short course?
12-15-2010, 07:51 PM
#96
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RE: Tangerine?
Freeman Jr.,
I share your frustration. Why is it that everyone continues to hang on to what is not anymore? Why does there have to be a 426 and 428 class, when the 426 could easily be the new 428 class? Why is it that people think that going faster with others going faster is more fun. I think it is just more heart ache and crashed planes. Just let the damn class go. What is the problem with that? It will save you money in the long run.
I just don't understand where you other cats are coming from. I think you are idiots, but you may think the same about me. So be it. I will save my money and time by not ever sponsoring a 422 or 428 event again. By the way, I am a CD. It may not matter in your neighborhood, but it does in mine. It's just like the old addage, if they change something, I will quit. My addage is if they don't change it, I will quit, in fact I already have. NMPRA needs a rude awakening fellows!
Mike W
I share your frustration. Why is it that everyone continues to hang on to what is not anymore? Why does there have to be a 426 and 428 class, when the 426 could easily be the new 428 class? Why is it that people think that going faster with others going faster is more fun. I think it is just more heart ache and crashed planes. Just let the damn class go. What is the problem with that? It will save you money in the long run.
I just don't understand where you other cats are coming from. I think you are idiots, but you may think the same about me. So be it. I will save my money and time by not ever sponsoring a 422 or 428 event again. By the way, I am a CD. It may not matter in your neighborhood, but it does in mine. It's just like the old addage, if they change something, I will quit. My addage is if they don't change it, I will quit, in fact I already have. NMPRA needs a rude awakening fellows!
Mike W
12-15-2010, 08:07 PM
#97
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Tangerine?
There was a pipe change to the Nelson (shorter) about a year or two after introduction that pushed the SS faster. I think this was after Chip's record. Chip was also using a stock wood prop too.
Dub detuned the motor for 426 with a longer pipe to hold down speeds. But if they end up going too fast?
A simple flat plate between the engine and the firewall would allow tuning of the airframe drag to limit speed. Costs about a buck, easy to measure or change in size.
The short course rewards better fliers, but going slower increases the pool of adequate fliers. Might help the old and infirm with poor eyesight.
This is the same Whittier Narrows that held a race with the number one pylon about 50 feet to short? (Bob Downey memorial around 1989) A lot of records fell that morning.
Dub detuned the motor for 426 with a longer pipe to hold down speeds. But if they end up going too fast?
A simple flat plate between the engine and the firewall would allow tuning of the airframe drag to limit speed. Costs about a buck, easy to measure or change in size.
The short course rewards better fliers, but going slower increases the pool of adequate fliers. Might help the old and infirm with poor eyesight.
This is the same Whittier Narrows that held a race with the number one pylon about 50 feet to short? (Bob Downey memorial around 1989) A lot of records fell that morning.
12-15-2010, 09:06 PM
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RE: Tangerine?
The timing/muffler change came in 1993, Chip's record was in 1994, so it was after the shorter muffler, but before the APC's. But that still does't answer my question regarding 426 being very close to the 428 short course speeds/times when it was decided it could no longer be done on the short course. Yes, Whittier may have had a race with a mistakenly short course, but the course was legal when Chip did the 56, and I was one of the people that went and measured it after the record. It's also still the place with some of the best conditions for going fast.
12-15-2010, 09:24 PM
#100
My Feedback: (1)
RE: Tangerine?
Can any one here tell us what members and names that sit on this board the JR keeps saying that made this ruling for this 426 class plz ??