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EF-1 at Nats

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Old 07-14-2011, 06:09 PM
  #1
Larry F
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Default EF-1 at Nats

Hello,
I am disappointed there has not been a detailed write up about EF-1 at the Nats. I was out with a friend who was flying stunt and came over to follow the happenings of the EF-1 the week of pylon. I have to admit there were a lot more planes there than I thought there would however there is a lot of information that was not posted and it should be

Planes - ready to fly planes were given out to over 18 pilots to pump up the numbers of the entries
Performance - All but 3 designs fly poorly as a pylon airplane, they fall through the turns. Most promising, a Proud Bird by Jim Allen, A new Shoestring coming out buy Horizon and a Thunder Chicken I think from Jerry Small

Speed- These planes are flat out slow!!!

I have flown electrics for over 15 years and these guys who created the events have great intensions but just don’t get it. They should have drawn on some real experienced electric people when this event was thought up. It shows great promise but they need to fix it quick or it will die away fast. Heck they can't even fly the short course, they had to make it even shorter and when the wind changed direction at the Nats, had to stop turn the course around. I have never seen that in all the years I flew pylon going all the way back to 15 QM

I have two EF-1's and this is the set-up I fly and the performance is in the 125mph range on the 424 short course, similar to the 424 speeds

5s3000 40c Zippy Flitemax batteries
EFlite 25 870 KPV motor
Castle 85 ICE
APC 9x9 E prop

Larry
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Old 07-15-2011, 04:37 AM
  #2
iamtom
 
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Who are you and what planet are you from? What class of pylon do you fly? I think you might be the one who missed the point.
Just my opinion.
Tom Scott
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Old 07-15-2011, 05:12 AM
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Ed Sabini
 
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Hi Larry,
I got some of the same feedback from guys that were out there flying R/C Combat. The idea is good, but they need to work on the rules a bit and tweak them. I have followed some of your build threads and saw the video on how you Ef_1 flew and it was a huge difference VS the 4 cell Elite 25 higher KPV motor combo. I know the guys that are in my club that boght the POGO were not happy with the preformance at all. Are you going to the NEAT Fair again this year?

Ed
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Old 07-15-2011, 05:36 AM
  #4
Larry F
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Hi Tom,
I am sorry if what I wrote upset you, that was not my intent. I actually spoke to you for a couple of minutes reagrding the 426 Jett event when I made a contribution to the Cliff Telford fund. I knew Cliff from many years ago. That new event is a homerun for sure.

My pylon experience is QM 15, AMA 428, F-1 . I had thoughts about getting back in to the new 426 event, that is why I came over and then saw the EF-1 planes. I have been flying electric performance planes for the last 6 years and have a converted Vendetta from Lyle and a Vortex.

My thoughts are not just my own by any means. I was told the intent was to get sport flyers to build the EF-1 planes to draw in new blood to pylon. That's great, but the average electric sport plane performs better than the EF-1's currently available.

Since this event is new, changes would be simple to make now. Increase the cells to 5 , lower the KPV motors to 850-900 and go to the 9x9 prop.

Larry Fund
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Old 07-15-2011, 05:40 AM
  #5
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

I've spoken with folks that were there - unfortunately I couldn't make it.

Some said it was the most fun they had at the NATS.

It's not all about speed. Sure, there are ways to make faster airplanes. If you want to go faster, fly different events. If you want to scare off any chance of newcomers, make faster airplanes.

I've flown QM15, F1, 424, 426, 428 - and I don't have any problem at all flying the Pogo I've got with NMPRA setup around the poles. I'm not going to quit flying other pylon racers, but plan on having some fun with the EF1, too.

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Old 07-15-2011, 05:48 AM
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Al Valdman
 
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Hi Larry,
THANK YOU!!! I went out and bought the whole set-up listed on the NMPRA site with the hopes of getting into the EF-1. The Pogo is the only one I could find available at the time. It is not a performance plane by any means. My Pulse 25 is faster, takes off better and makes a much better sport plane.

I followed the thread you did about the Pogo and did the same to mine. It goes much better now and is a lot more fun to fly. I heard Dane Kane is going to head up the NMPRA next, he designs some great stuff. Maybe he can fix this event before it dies.

Al
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Old 07-15-2011, 06:11 AM
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David Hill
 
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Hello,
I agree with some of what was written here. I think one big point that has been overlooked is the course. It will not be easy to incorporate EF-1 with 424 events. If the course was the same length, then it would be accepted better. However to fly the longer course, you will need to look into a different motor and battery combo.

I have seen Larry demo his version of the EF-1 at a fly-in this spring and I have to say it was much better than what I was getting out of my Pogo. All he did was move the stab and vertical fin back 1", went to the lower 870 KPV Eflite 25 motor on 5 cells and the 9x9 prop. He let a lot of people fly it and they all loved it.

Larry, will see you at the Whitman Flyers Electric fly-in in August

David
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Old 07-15-2011, 08:21 AM
  #8
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Um. EF-1 works fine on the AMA 424 course. There is no need to move the poles if you want to run EF-1 and 424 at the same meet. The Nats management chose the 375-foot course only to keep the times (and pace) comparable to the other events.

It's nice to know that people who came to the Nats to fly CL Stunt, or who love electric all-out speed events, or haven't flown RC Pylon in 20 years are now full of suggestions for rule changes to "fix" EF-1 "before it dies". But please understand that those of us who have watched all these issues carefully considered, argued over and finally resolved during the past 2 years and who enjoyed some of the closest and best racing since 1973 only one week ago will probably not share your assessment.

Duane Gall
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Old 07-15-2011, 09:13 AM
  #9
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Maybe I have over reacted but the back story is quite lengthy. I can't go into all of it but the folks involved in getting this class off the ground have hundreds of hours of sweat equity involved. I personaly really enjoyed the event. Most all the planes flew well. The course change was due to extreme down wind conditions which was problematic for many. The change cost us approx. 25 mins. and saved a humber of planes as well as the event moved along much faster. We thought we would not be done till after 4 and finished between 3 and 3:30. As for the course, there are choices. Just like 424 pick the course you like. Please do not loose sight of the objective. Bring pylon to mainstream flyers with a model which will perform as well as a racer as it might as a sport plane. Can anything be optimised? Sure. We all monkey with stuff when there are no rules to get what we want.
Sorry if I got excited, but the guys who put the most time and effort into this endevor have really thought this thing out. The general atmosphere surrounding the EF-1 event at the NATS was light hearted and fun especially after the stress of the QM-40 event the day before. I suspect EF-1 will continue to evolve as time goes on but I have to give a big THANKYOU to the folks who had the forsight to begin this aspect of our sport we love so much.
Tom
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Old 07-15-2011, 12:05 PM
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

I am sure there will be a good write up to come covering the EF-1 event held at the nats.

There were airplanes given to pilots to fly in the event, but you do not have your facts straight. The airplanes were brought by one of the founders of the event, and a deal had been previously arranged with him on who was going to fly them. It was not over 18. It was more like half of that. At any rate, it was an opportunity for the designer to see how the airframe performed under race conditions, and get feedback on which ones to persue.

I have to say I was skeptical going in to the event, but when it was said and done, I had a blast. My airplane flew great, as well as my partners. We both test flew our airplanes the night before the race. Both of our airplanes had one flight going into the race. Every airplane on that field had basically the same wing and moments. I did not see one that out performed any other. If you put them all in a pile, and made everybody draw one out each heat, the results would have been the same.

They are not designed to be 200 mph race planes. We allready have classes for that. The idea behind the speeds is to put it on a shorter course, and open up the amount of clubs that can actually hold the event. The longer courses limit the clubs that can hold events due to enough real estate.

I personally felt like the 375 ft course was absolutely perfect. The times were in the 1:15 range which to me is ideal for this type of an event.

Overall, I thought EF-1 was a great success at the nats. I can not think of another "unofficial" event ever bringing 42 entries at the nats. Especially at the end of the week on an off day. Everyone I talked with throughout the day had a great time, and I can't say I ever saw anyone p o'd that day. It was kind of like the pressure was off, and the fun was on.

Thanks to Jerry, Danny, Scott, and Tom for all of your efforts.

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Old 07-15-2011, 12:21 PM
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

As one of the pilots who flew the event, You couldn't be more wrong about it.
It is exactly what is needed to bring new blood into pylon! It was a blast to fly just the way it is!
I would like to thank Jerry, Dan and All the others involved to make this event happen.
I also want to thank Dennis Cranfield for loaning me his backup after I crashed mine on friday night.
Please race the class before you decide what is needed to fix it.
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:30 PM
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David Hill
 
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Hi Guys,
Hey at least this thread stirred up people talking about the event. Yes I agree the performance is less than what I would have liked, and most of the sport flyers who fly electrics by me have not been excited by it yet. We fly off of grass and getting these off so far has been difficult

Racers will race anything out there, what is important is to see if this draws in new people or is it just going to be another event for people who already race.


David
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Old 07-15-2011, 01:42 PM
  #13
Larry F
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Hi David,
Are are 100% right, racers will race anything. I am very sorry if I in any way put down the efforts of the originators of the event. All I am saying is I do not think it will bring in new electric fliers into pylon, and that it may have to be adjusted to do that.

As to the planes given out to pilots, maybe the number I wrote was incorrect. I spoke to President of the NMPRA on Tuesday evening and he told me they had 28 entries. I spoke with someone who I raced against many years ago, Dave Latcha. He was given a Rivets and had no clue about what to do. Another person next to him from MD was also given a plane and again knew nothing about this prior.

Yes I will be at the Neat Fair and the Whitman Flyers Fly-in

Larry
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Old 07-18-2011, 04:40 AM
  #14
luv to race
 
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Larry you should of come to our pit area and discussed your concerns and ideas for improvement. I had 2 of the F5D USA team members pitting right next to me, I had Jerry Small right in front of me (better info than what Dave Latcha could provide for sure).. Jerry is probably the leading motivator for the event, and one heck of a nice guy. He would of talked at length with you as to why they chose the battery motor combo they did. I have to believe speed and money where two big factors. I believe they had a target speed in mind that would allow any sport flyer to compete and handle the plane. If you wanted more performance the F5D stuff is over 200mph now, and those planes have every bit of performance you'd be looking for.

I think the planes will fly better in time, first time designs rarely fly perfect. The Shoestring that Jerry Small loaned me flew really good, and Horizon Hobby will have that on the market in a few months... and it looks bad ass. It was all very easy to set up and operate, and I'm not an experienced electric guy.

Cheers,
Randy Bridge
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:26 AM
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Why use different planes Here is my Electric Predator Rimfire 46 motor Castle Ice 75 controller APC 10/6 prop All I did was make the nose a little longer and a hatch to replace the batteries quickly and air duct around the motor up front and a exit hole over the servos trailing edge of wing The rinfire motor has six Li Po cells and turns the prop 15,500 The plane was clocked at 120 MPH probably would do more with a 10/7 prop Weigh four pounds qith batteries ready to go
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Old 07-18-2011, 06:39 AM
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

I like the EF1 planes. Not just another box fuse with a hershey bar wing and v-tail..

Don't get me wrong, I fly Q500 too, but I do like the looks of the new class.

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Old 07-18-2011, 07:05 AM
  #17
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

They are getting up to 426 speeds in Europe with EQ500. But I agree with Fizz. We don't need another class of flying "T" Squares.

Denis
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Old 07-18-2011, 03:30 PM
  #18
Larry F
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Hi Randy,
I actually did speak to Jerry last year about the motor choice, but a representive from Horizon who was there with Jerry cut me off, basically told me I did not know what I was talking about , so did not persue it further. This year Jerry was quite busy and I did not want to bother him. Maybe I should have been more persistant last year, but after being in aerospace engineering with Farchild Republic and an electronics design engineer with Kollmorgan for over 20 years specializing in linear motor drive, speed controls and switching circuits, I did not think anyone was going to listen because I was not a "NAME" in the hobby.

If anyone out there would like to check the efficiencies, take the current NMPRA Eflite 25 higher kpv motor on a 4S pack with the 8x8 and compare it to the lower 870 kpv Eflite 25 on a 5s3000 with the 9x9 . Even on a cheap Zippy Flitemax 30 C 5S pack, the later combination is more effienent and less expensive than the current combination with the new generation Thunder Power 65c 4s packs.
By the way hats off the Thunderpower for stepping up big time with the new 4S packs.

Either way, I hope the event suceeds and those in charge will evolve the event as needed.

Larry Fund
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Old 07-19-2011, 04:21 PM
  #19
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Quote:
Maybe I should have been more persistant last year, but after being in aerospace engineering with Farchild Republic and an electronics design engineer with Kollmorgan for over 20 years specializing in linear motor drive, speed controls and switching circuits, I did not think anyone was going to listen
Not really a cogent argument to validate your point.

I've only test flown a Pogo, but found it rather easy and relaxing to fly. EF-1 will provide a gateway into pylon for the average modeler for a number of reasons:

1. They look good. I can't count the number of times that people told me that quickie is out for them because they look like the box it came in.

2. Dead stick landings terrify the average modeler. We all know that most people can't set a needle worth a damn, especially sport fliers. Give them two needles and they are lost. Now you can power up and go around.

3. People fly ARF's, these are very cheap to manufacture. Double the speed and square the expense. That will kill an entry level event.

4. No doubt a PRO class will develop sooner or later, but that will take a number of changes to the airframe as well as the power system. May the best engineer win......haven't everybody worked in Aerospace at one time or another eh, Fizz?
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Old 07-20-2011, 03:49 AM
  #20
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Good points Bob. Don't forget that these aircraft cure the argument that you can't sport fly a Q40 or Q500. Which we hear that from time to time. So you can take your Pogo, or Shoestring and sport fly it cause of some things you mentioned.. it has throttle control, tail wheel to taxi with.

I certainly believe the main goal was achieved. And that is "cost" and "speed".. You are always going to have the "na-sayers", we have seen that since the beginning of time. I for one believe the event at the Nats was a success, my hats of to Jerry Small...he was grinning ear to ear, and one hell of a nice guy.

Maybe in time they might tweak things for a faster model.. however in "most" cases speed translates to costs. If someone really wanted faster electric F1's, then possibly putting together a test data package and presenting it to Dan Kane/Jerry Small for review and approval would be the best route to go.

RB
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Old 07-20-2011, 08:33 AM
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

Good points. The class was meant as a "fun" event to attract more racers...whether former racers or new ones. It wasn't meant to be an all out serious racing event. As such, there are several things that were done to help make it easier and cheaper. Sure, a different motor with a 5S Zippy pack may be less than the 4s TP's...but what happens when people decide they want to use 5S TP's? It's instantly more expensive than what we have. Personally I'd rather see the rules allow thinner trailing edges and airfoild tail surfaces. Will that keep me from being interested in having fun, and get me to complain that the event totally misses the boat? Nope, I've still got a Miss Dara kit to build and will have fun with it.
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:41 PM
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Default RE: EF-1 at Nats

There is a huge difference between flying a fast airplane, and going fast on a race course. I guarantee you that those of you who are complaining that EF1 is too slow would get your A@#$% whipped if you attempted to actually race some of the better racers on a pylon course. A Pogo flying 300 feet up all over the sky looks slow. Gino Del Ponte on the course at the NATS looked blazing fast. The top of the field at the NATS did under 1:15 on the 375' course. I guarantee you you can't do that. Go practice A LOT, and then enter a race. When you can actually put the plane on the course and then beat somebody on a race course, then complain that they are too slow and no fun to race.
Scott
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