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  1. #1

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    Why wood only in 424

    Hi
    Can someone tell the main reason for not allowing composite quickie airplanes in the 424 quickie 500 class in the USA. As here in New Zealand the powers that be, pushed for the composite airplane to be allowed in our sport quickie class, and I am wondering if this is a very cleaver move.
    Our class is similar to 424 with the exception of 46 size motors and 10% nitro fuel.
    Geoff

  2. #2

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    As I understand it, the intent was to help keep the cost of 424 racing down - composite planes are expensive. While a "woodie" airplane can be competitive with a composite, if someone comes along with a composite plane and starts winning due to practice, preparation, etc - newbies might see that and think that they "need" a composite plane in order to race, and will drop out due to costs involved. 424 was intended to be a low cost, entry level event to get people into racing. If they get the bug, they can move to 426 (or 428 if anyone is still flying it), and other faster events.
    No matter where you go, there you are!

  3. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by fizzwater2 View Post
    As I understand it, the intent was to help keep the cost of 424 racing down - composite planes are expensive. While a "woodie" airplane can be competitive with a composite, if someone comes along with a composite plane and starts winning due to practice, preparation, etc - newbies might see that and think that they "need" a composite plane in order to race, and will drop out due to costs involved. 424 was intended to be a low cost, entry level event to get people into racing. If they get the bug, they can move to 426 (or 428 if anyone is still flying it), and other faster events.
    Yes totally logical and understandable reason, this was the reasoning behind our rule originally also banning composites. I guess the powers that be have in NZ must see a reason that the inclusion of composites will promote pylon.

    Geoff

  4. #4

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    Hi Conrod, exactly what Fizz said. Of course it is always great to beat someone with a composite plane with an all woodie plane. but in the aggragate picture to many guys will drop out as composites just cost to much and will find something else to do with their money.
    Barry...
    http://www.RCPRO.org

  5. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by BarryReade View Post
    Hi Conrod, exactly what Fizz said. Of course it is always great to beat someone with a composite plane with an all woodie plane. but in the aggragate picture to many guys will drop out as composites just cost to much and will find something else to do with their money.
    Hi Barry
    Yes that is the fear I have, that the perception a composite plane is faster, will stop new people getting involved and maybe even some existing competitors giving up.
    It is very strange that the then standing pylon SIG, pushed for the inclusion of the composite plane in our sport quickie class. I can not seen a beneficial reason for this decision.
    Geoff

  6. #6

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    Conrad, you don't have a lot of options left. If you are not a member of the decision making board and you can't get on the board to give your input and you don't want to spend an inordinate amount of time championing your cause, you either live with it (and continue to race) or you withdraw from racing in protest over the decision to allow composites in the Sprt Quickie Class. The second option is really radical and I hope you don't pick that one as we need all the racers we can get.
    Barry...
    http://www.RCPRO.org

  7. #7

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    perhaps their line of thinking was that the composite planes are much closer to an ARF than others.. and a lot of people this day and age don't build - they just fly. I have one composite plane (Shotgun) and I must admit - it was easy to get it ready to fly. Only reason I have it was because I got it for a great deal.. I can't swallow 500-700 dollar composite quickees, just goes against my grain. I do have a Sam-Rai that was built from a kit, with a sheeted foam wing, and it's every bit as fast as my other 426 plane - and has been going good for two years now.

    In the states, the Viper is pretty much the only ARF woodie out there.
    No matter where you go, there you are!

  8. #8

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    Well I went to our Nationals as a caller for my flying buddy who was flying in the sport quickie class. He had some bad luck ( would not listen to his caller)

    The results where first place Viper, second place BB Racing V-Gun, third place Viper. Age of first place pilot 14.

    So hopefully the composite airplane will not cause to much trouble.
    Have some question regarding the Viper but will post in Q500 forum.

  9. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by BarryReade View Post
    Conrad, you don't have a lot of options left. If you are not a member of the decision making board and you can't get on the board to give your input and you don't want to spend an inordinate amount of time championing your cause, you either live with it (and continue to race) or you withdraw from racing in protest over the decision to allow composites in the Sprt Quickie Class. The second option is really radical and I hope you don't pick that one as we need all the racers we can get.
    Barry
    Long time to respond but been tied up last few weeks. Company I worked for closed down, and now just had shoulder surgery.

    Now for more important things, no will not give up racing as I was the person who introduced Q500 racing into New Zealand, this was a 20 plus year battle to do. I was the president of the pylon association for 2 years and also ran Q500 race meetings unofficially for 3 years prier, to having the class excepted as an official NZ pylon class. Although as said had been pushing for the Q500 in NZ for years.
    It is just disappointing to have a bunch of morons come along and change things for no good reason. I have asked what is the benefit of $800nz -$1000nz airframes in the sport Q500 class and have not really had a proper answer.
    Yes a V-Gun with 3 colour pant job is $1000 here in New Zealand.

  10. #10

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    Sorry to hear your company shut down. I hope the shoulder is doing better. Make sure you do the rehab if your Doctor prescribes it as without the rehab it just won't recover and, most rehabs are painful. But, that's the way it is.

    I have built up 424 planes with foam core wings. Same for my 426 planes. I have four Bob Harris "Wham Bops" that will have "Woodie wings". Meaning they are built up wings with ribs and all. I am going to campaign them to prove that you don't have to have special vacuum bagged wings, etc. to win in 424. But, I feel my point will fall on deaf ears and blind eyes. The one thing we can be sure of in life is that there will be change. Not always for the better but, "We will have change"
    Barry...
    http://www.RCPRO.org

  11. #11

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    Jeff you would know he is deaf and that day he couldn't hear nothing but the strong wind noise in his ears , he was very upset as he couldn't hear nothing you said to him and just had to wing it ..

  12. #12

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    Geoff, how is it going? any changes and are you going to race this year?? From reviewing this thread the rules will allow both built up wings and composites. Am i correct? If so get with your buddies and go beat the composites with a built up plane. Good Luck!!
    Barry...
    http://www.RCPRO.org

  13. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by fai2 View Post
    Jeff you would know he is deaf and that day he couldn't hear nothing but the strong wind noise in his ears , he was very upset as he couldn't hear nothing you said to him and just had to wing it ..
    fai2, I think you are reading WAY too much into my comment, that is why it was followed with a smiley face. Yes he does have a hearing aid, and yes it was windy. I do not think he was upset as you suggest, as this guy knows not all race days go to plan.

    fai2 do you have a real name? as I have noticed you do not sign any posts on MFNZ either

    Don't forget you can not tell tone in written form, that is why smiley's and icons are used
    Cheers
    Geoff Hall

  14. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by BarryReade View Post
    Geoff, how is it going? any changes and are you going to race this year?? From reviewing this thread the rules will allow both built up wings and composites. Am i correct? If so get with your buddies and go beat the composites with a built up plane. Good Luck!!
    Hi Barry
    Yes, I will be racing at some stage this year. The shoulder I had operated on is taking longer too heal than I thought.
    Have not got any buddies but I will be trying to prove that a woody is fast enough too win.
    Cheers
    Geoff

  15. #15
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    Geoff, make sure you do your PT, hope you heal up. Let us know how it goes, Good luck, keep us posted on results!

    Ed
    Ed Alves
    BFM NMPRA-23G

  16. #16

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    I'm curious, New Zealand is about the size of Colorado with less population. How many racers do you have in total, and do you often go to the island to the west to race?
    - Supplementary insipid innocuous inane vacuous proclamation

  17. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by Conrod View Post
    Hi Barry
    Yes, I will be racing at some stage this year. The shoulder I had operated on is taking longer too heal than I thought.
    Have not got any buddies but I will be trying to prove that a woody is fast enough too win.
    Cheers
    Geoff
    Glad to hear you expect to race this year and as Ed says, do your rehab.

    You will find some like minded racing friends/buddies as the season progresses.
    Barry...
    http://www.RCPRO.org

  18. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by HighPlains View Post
    I'm curious, New Zealand is about the size of Colorado with less population. How many racers do you have in total, and do you often go to the island to the west to race?
    HighPlains
    Yes similar size in land mass but with a population of about4.5 million.
    I think the total registered MFNZ (our AMA) membership is about 2500, and the total number racing at present would be no more than 20 ish.
    Back 5 - 6 years or so the numbers where much higher, and we would get 20 plus at a race meeting but numbers have dropped off since then. Although it looks like there maybe an up turn in numbers if the powers that be promote pylon properly. As at present there is pylon in one location only in the north and one in the south island, where as in the past we raced at six different locations just in the north island. Takes the events to the competitors and you are not always traveling.
    Yes there used to be an annual pylon event with Australia back when FAI was the only class flown, but I think it was the end of the eighties when this finished, and apart from FAI which no one really fly's here anymore, the other pylon classes are different here to the Australian classes.

  19. #19
    edalves68's Avatar
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    Conrod,

    Thanks for the summary of New Zealand racing. I know that I often feel that living in Montana makes pylon racing challenging from a geographic/logistical stand point. After reading your post, I'm very appreciative that all I have to do is drive to our club (BFM), Helena, MT 3.5-4 hours, Calgary, CA 9 hours, and Spokane, WA 8.5 hours for an organized race. I have yet to race in Denver but it's only 8 easy hours. I have even considered making the drive to MN to the twin cities to race. The ups and downs I read of in pylon history, booms and bust, different classes, are indicative of any activity and of human nature. Making me want to go back in time when even the State of Montana had a race in Missoula, Great Falls, Chester, Helena, Miles City, Sydney and Billings. Each of those towns hosted a race at least one weekend or twice thru out summer. Geoff, I too struggle with local buddies. In 4 years I have not been able to recruit a caller, or other racers for that matter. I have great support from some very accomplished guys but due to other hobbies, position in life they are un able to travel the race circuit. Maybe it's just me,? I'm the only one really active (one other, his racing family is from Helena) from Billings, where 10-15 years ago there was a half a dozen very active Billings racers. I had hoped that EF1, the Billings races would help, but locally that does not have seemed to occurred, at least over the last couple years. I can only imagine what it would be like to have a consistent caller. Fortunately, my eldest son is 5 and in 3 years or so he will be calling for me, and then I'll be calling for him, I can't wait!!!!!! Thanks again Geoff, hang in there!!!!
    Last edited by edalves68; 02-27-2014 at 09:04 AM.
    Ed Alves
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  20. #20

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    edalves68
    Looking at the travel times you do, they are far greater than we here in New Zealand have to do. About 5 1/2 hours one way would be about the most I ever had too travel, and I did not see it as a problem back in the day.
    The problem is not many others will travel now days, soon as you say 1- 2 hours travel to a meeting they get cold feet. Maybe it is the price of gas now ($8.31 us gal).
    But the situation here at present with all meetings in one part of the country only (north island) I believe is not helping the growth of pylon in NZ.
    The south island group have been racing in one area only for a number of years and this is reflected by the very low numbers of race pilots they have.
    A caller is also going to be a problem for me now, as the wife who was excellent as a caller no longer wants to be involved with pylon due to problems she encountered with people, when she was the pylon secretary, and my son has now moved on to IMAC and Pattern.

    Geoff

  21. #21
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    Geoff,

    If you love pylon, and you don't have a bunch, handful or even one guy. Like I feel at times. It makes it very tough, but do it for yourself, look for anything positive and go for it! I'm sorry your wife got caught up in it, it's easy to get your feelings hurt, feel scorned and disrespected. After all it's just toy airplanes, but when you have passion about something, put in as much effort as we pylon racer's do it's easy to caught up in it. I know I do. I think the Pylon Racing Community in the State's is strong, but it appears to be aging. I think NMPRA numbers are down. It's not that large, I see the overall R/C community shrinking, I see bright spots here and there, but other that drones (quads an cameras) I don't see a whole lot of kids doing it today for the simple fascination of flight. That spill's over into all facets of the hobby. Hang in there, grab some kid, teach him how to call for you!
    Ed Alves
    BFM NMPRA-23G


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