Engine choices out there for an old Formula 1?
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Engine choices out there for an old Formula 1?
Looking for the best engine choices for an old formula 1 project. I found a New Prather Little Toni kit so for nostalgia sake I want to put together a formular one bird again. There is little to nothing for racing going on locally so investing in a QM40 again just isn't what I want to do. I also don't want to stick a side exhaust engine into an F1 plane. The only real option I have seen that will still give F1 performance is Jett's FAI Practice engine. Are there any other high performance rear exhaust engines that anyone would recommend?
thanks in advance.
Jeremy
thanks in advance.
Jeremy
#3
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I'm interested in most anything if the price is right. I was looking at the fai practice engine in big part because they are still available as are parts. I also don't really want to be running 60% nitro. I honestly don't know how any of the old engines run on lower nitro.
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I'm interested in most anything if the price is right. I was looking at the fai practice engine in big part because they are still available as are parts. I also don't really want to be running 60% nitro. I honestly don't know how any of the old engines run on lower nitro.
The should run not to bad on 25-40% nitro.
I am just helping the son of a good friend of mine who passed away.
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LGM,
I may have several K&B 6.5 RI/RE engines for sale at a fair price. These engines were set up by Clarence Lee for a Sport Form I event flown in the east with 15% fuel. I won several races with these engines and have a fair supply of parts-head buttons/bearings and the like.
Note that I no longer race but fly jets almost exclusively. PM me if you're interested.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
I may have several K&B 6.5 RI/RE engines for sale at a fair price. These engines were set up by Clarence Lee for a Sport Form I event flown in the east with 15% fuel. I won several races with these engines and have a fair supply of parts-head buttons/bearings and the like.
Note that I no longer race but fly jets almost exclusively. PM me if you're interested.
Rgds,
Art ARRO
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I just finished a Prather Toni kit for a guy and used a Jett 426 side exhaust motor with a carburator from Dub, needed to extend drive washer 1/2 inch and put a spacer between motor and muffler but should be a nice sport plane
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I have been following your build thread of the Toni, that is an amazing paint job!!! I have a NIB Prather Toni that was left to me by a good friend who passed three years ago.
I don't know if I will build it but would love to find a BV Polecat kit, as the Polecat was my first F 1.
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F1 Toni Engine
Hello, On the Toni set up, If you wanted a F1 mini pipe, the BSE Jett works awesome!! Front intake with rear exhaust is efficient and reliable. Jett engines have a removable prop shaft which allows the engine to be moved back with a longer prop stud. This allows a perfect fit with the cowl on. This engine is designed to turn 23,000 to 25,000rpm effortlessly on 50%, and the parts are completely available. Just call Dub and let him know you would like the same set up we did with mine. If you don't mind an exhaust muffler, the set up Dave did on my Toni works excellent! Keeps the plane clean, puts it in the 140 to 150mph range, and idles perfect with an air valve carb. If you have any questions about how some other engines work in these, I would be glad to help. I have tried a bunch lol Kurt
Last edited by speedfreak111; 03-25-2016 at 11:09 AM.
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These planes were designed for high rpm smaller props, they do not respond well to very slow landings! Formula One's have very clean airfoils that will stall in a heartbeat if you get them too slow. As far as speed goes, with the Original F1 engines or the Jett BSE pictured above, on the good fuel expect speeds in the 175mph to 185mph range. With that Combination they fly faster than my 426 Q500's, but not as fast as my Q40's. With limited ground clearance a 9 inch prop is about max diameter. The airframe is really designed for a 7 to 8 inch prop running in the 22,000 to 25,000rpm range. The Jett 426 engine in the Checkered Toni pictured above that Dave built turns a 8.8x9.0 prop at 18,200rpm on 15% fuel. The YS is a good engine, but realistically the YS45 with a pipe will turn a 9x9 at 16,300rpm on the same 15% fuel. The Jett uses a bladder tank, but it is a very simple design with no pump on the engine.
Last edited by speedfreak111; 03-26-2016 at 08:29 AM.
#13
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The YS will put you into the 140+ range. With the engine idling, you can drag a F1 in for a very slow landing. I built a couple dozen F1's and raced all over the country back in the day. Too bad you were not able to race them. It was much more difficult than the neutered events flown today on mild sport fuel. Even with 65% fuel, it was rare that a F1 would even reach 175 while one the course, let alone exceed it. Most were in the mid 160's, when radar was used. Of course we we only running .40's and turning every 3 seconds or so. There have be reports of them exceeding 200 with a long pass, but with a slight tail wind and dive, that might not be an honest speed. The better engines would turn about 22,500 on the ground, but unload to a bit over 27,000 while on the course.
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Formula One's
I really have the upmost respect for you guys that originally built and raced these! Just an amazing group of dedicated racers! Racing these planes on high nitro with hand carved props was no easy task! I still have a few set up that way. I have been flying and collecting F1's for over 30 yrs. I believe I have, and have experimented with about every engine combination you can think of. Whether I use an old set up or new, the fastest ones always seem to end up with a Jett or Nelson. Here is a picture of one of my airplane rooms that is pretty full! I have been told I may have the largest collection in existence. My wife is convinced of it! Lol F1's have always been my favorite! I love the look, the history, and how they fly! You are right about how I am spoiled with the ease and performance of today's Q40 class racing. It's ridiculous how much power and reliability today's engines have compared to the original F1's on 15% fuel. One of my Q40 motors is going to find a home in one of these shortly!
P.S. Sorry, Had problem making picture open up, so I posted it in "my gallery"
P.S. Sorry, Had problem making picture open up, so I posted it in "my gallery"
Last edited by speedfreak111; 03-27-2016 at 07:19 AM.
#15
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The problem with a Q40 motor is lack of torque, one of thing nitro did due to the mass of fuel was give plenty of torque. The heavier F1 airframe needs a bit more prop diameter, but to turn it with a Q40 motor you would need to drop the pitch. I test flew my first Nelson Q engine on a quickie on a clipped down Rev-up with 6 1/2 pitch about two decades ago. At that time everyone was thinking they had to turn around 25K, but later decided that 23.5 worked better with the early Q40 planes.
It's too bad that Dub Jett's original idea of keeping F1 airframes going was not adapted. But people thought that quickies would have been faster, and that was unacceptable to just about everyone. In fact, originally the idea was that the same engine/pipe would be used on both Quickie and Q40. The only problem was that the people that thought that were talking out of their backsides.
It's too bad that Dub Jett's original idea of keeping F1 airframes going was not adapted. But people thought that quickies would have been faster, and that was unacceptable to just about everyone. In fact, originally the idea was that the same engine/pipe would be used on both Quickie and Q40. The only problem was that the people that thought that were talking out of their backsides.
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It should be interesting, I will have to keep you posted on how it works out. Preliminary tests comparing today's Q40 engines show they are turning very close to the same rpm as Dub's new F1 engine on the high nitro fuel with the SAME exact prop. I have been using a 7.4x7.6 Q40 prop as I flew in the video at the NATS with the Red/white/blue one. I have to admit I was a bit apprehensive trying that prop on an F1 the first time, but it worked out awesome! It was actually faster than my other plane with the exact engine with the same gallon of fuel turning a 7.4x7.8 Q40 prop. The higher rpm with the 7.6 made it faster all the way around. Sometimes what looks good on paper doesn't always play out the same in the air.
Last edited by speedfreak111; 03-27-2016 at 11:50 AM.
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Dub was telling me about the attempt he made to save Formula One back in the day. It's a shame he didn't get a better response. They were such beautiful airplanes! It may have been a combination of how intense the build was also. A lot of guys say the new Q40 really saved pylon racing. The combination of ease of build with the composites, and the reliable power that runs on all the same 15% fuel sure helps. Plus I hate to admit it, because I love F1's, but the first time I flew a new Q40 it was like it was on rails. I'm just so glad the original racers kept it going!
#18
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It takes about as much time to build a Q40 as it took to do the canopy, cheek cowl, and wheel pants on a F1. And with what plugs cost now...plus going through an engine or two at a contest. But on the plus side, there were a lot of fairly big races. The Phoneix race and the SLO race every May were two of the best. On the other hand, the races were fixed to a degree by things like frequency ganging, and not all engines were of the same caliber. Overall, racing is much better today.
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You guys really had a passion for the sport to make F1 what it was. It was the foundation that evolved racing to what we have today! Just seeing the quality of workmanship, and the effort it took Dave to build one of these gave me a whole new appreciation for them. Then to put them in harms way with three other ones every heat! Crazy! Let alone radio failures, and the unreliability of the motors running on high nitro! Whew! I'm just glad all you racers hung in there!
Last edited by speedfreak111; 03-28-2016 at 12:15 AM.
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Hi Guys, Had One of my F1's out yesterday, and shot some video. This is an original Shark that was raced back in the day. If you ever wondered how a Nelson 428 engine would work in one, here it is!
https://youtu.be/wayfwHKr880
https://youtu.be/wayfwHKr880
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Q40 Powered F1 Little Toni
This is my latest Hot Rod lol Jett Q40 with 7.4x7.6 prop with stock Venturi, and an 8oz tetra tank. Combination worked out even better than I thought. Moving the engine back worked out for balance and the cowling fit perfect! Check out the video! Kurt