BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

Having just recently helped out with officiating at some races I am gaining a whole new perspective to racing. I wondered how many others have an understanding of the differant perspectives of the racing experiance. To the officials it looks easy and you wonder why they sometimes go so long around pylon one. To the racers it gets really frustrating that someone might mess up something so simple as a lap count or finish time.

I just wanted to see of the people in this forum what trends in participation exist.

For the purpose of answering "Officiating" means you call cuts, start, count laps etc., not that you help set up and tear down the equipment.

js3

My Feedback: (3)

BB,

I've worked pylon races as a cut judge on all three pylons (not at the same time), as the starter and assistant starter, and as a timer/lap counter. Back in the day, I used to judge the pylons by sitting in the cage under the pole. When I was in High School long, long ago, I judged pylon #1 for a formula 1 race. What a rush! However I'd rather be racing than working any day.

As to why we fly so far past #1 well, judging the plane/pylon perspective from 550 feet away as the plane is flying away from you is more difficult that it sounds.

Do you have specific questions about working the different jobs in pylon racing?

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

John,
I guess I wasn't clear enough in my post. I also race and recently started lap counting and/or starting at some races. I'd also rather race but if I havn't had time to prepare I'm more than willing to help out on the other side of things. What I have found is that the officials don't realize what's involved in racing and calling and the racers don't know how difficult it can be to always get it right. I am much less likely to complain about what I might percieve as a botched call and I am a lot less critical of the people racing than when I was a spectator. The reason for the poll was to get a glimpse of what perspective folks in this forum have on the racing experiance but so far participation in the poll is about the same as participation in racing, pretty low.

js3

My Feedback: (3)

Sorry Basin, I didn't even see the poll the first time. I've just submitted my answer for racing, calling, officiating.

I too agree that as a worker, it is pretty difficult to get things 100% right all of the time. I also cringe when competitors get in the face of a course worker. I mean really--they are (mostly) volunteering their time to do something that really isn't all that enjoyable just so we can have fun flying our toy airplanes.

Ed Smith

This is my advice to all race officials.

People always groan when I drag out or refer to the rule book. Believe me this is the only tool that a race official has to guarantee fair decisions to all competitors. Making judgement calls is a bad idea. How can one determine if the latest judgement call was as fair as the one made ten heats ago for a different situation? Did it give more or less advantage to the competitor.

So, go by the rule book. Then the next time some "Victimized" competitor who has just got a zero is storming across the pavement towards you do this. Pull out the rule book, show him the rule and say "Read this" Argument over, everybody treated the same.

Ed S

garys

Ed,
Rulebooks eliminate judgement calls? Where did it say I launched early at the 2003 Nats, as you said I did?
GS

Ed Smith

Gary,

I did not have to make a judgement call on that one. You made it so obvious! Everybody saw it!!

Ed s

garys

Nope, only you and Ray supposedly saw it. I can't help it if the guys on the first flag were late, and made it look like I went early..I WASN'T EARLY!! If the rulebook is so good and eliminating judgement calls..where was it then??
GS

splatt

looking at pics of this years Nats I'm wondering who's going early here?


There's Daven on the far end. Go Dave go!

Ed Smith

A little secret about officiating. In any discipline Officials victimize somebody to make the rest of the competitors think twice. Gary, it was just your day! Consider yourself honoured!!

Ed S

garys

I'm supposed to be honored for being victimized? Fine, but next time give the honor to somebody else!

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Gary,

You have only been a victim once at a Nationals? Twice for me at one Nats, and once at another. At the one in Washington state I won the heat, but the lap counter forgot to turn the card in the first heat of Formula One. So he had me with a 1:17 and second place (it was an 11 lap time). Since most of these guys running the race had seen me fly slower airplanes in the past they thought it was correct. Ticked me off so much that the next heat I set fast time that lasted until the last round when Shadel took it back. I won all my heats until someone messed with my trims in the impound. When I discovered it on the line, the clock was already running, so rushing I cooked the motor instead of the routine start. A Stinger just can't glide 5 laps. Last heat of the race I got to race Mike Helsel and it wasn't going to be his day. I could hear the number three judge in the cage cussing every lap. So down 5 points you end up 6th or so due to incompetence and sabotage. And this was in the good old days of frequency ganging at the Nats.

In the Nats at Windover Ma the following year, the Richmond brothers taught me an interesting lesson in race psychology. I don’t remember which one was flying and which was calling, but we were wingtip to wingtip for most of the race right to the finish. On the tenth lap they held the turn at three just a bit longer so that their airplane was headed towards the lap counter cage. I crossed the finish line a couple of feet ahead of them, but they got the win. Afterward, their dad explained to me that the guys counting laps didn’t even see me finish but were all looking at their plane. Lesson learned. I still laugh about that one.

Running any race is next to impossible. Mistakes happen. First place usually pays about as well as last

BasinBum

My Feedback: (2)

There's two sides to every story and then there is the truth.

daven

My Feedback: (1)

HighPlains,

Frequency ganging is alive and well at the nats. Ask team APC.

Quite a few top guys on either 28 or 31, can't quite remember. Then again, they shot one of there guys down, so that may not be such a great idea.

I really don't have a big issue about it, just pointing it out. I think there were only 2 people on my frequency, mine, and my partner.

garys

Dave,
Unfortunately you're always going to have "frequency ganging" at events with large turnouts and limited frequencies, like the Nats. There just aren't enough frequencies to prevent it. Can you blame people for wanting to be on the same frequency as their friends? I'm sure that wasn't the only group of "friends" on the same frequency, it just stood out because that group always tends to do well.
GS

iskandar taib

My Feedback: (5)

Back to the original question. I sat in the #2 pylon cage a couple mornings at the Lubbock Nats (1996? 1997?) for Q500. Wayne Yeager came around looking for volunteers. Quite an education in applying one's memory. Yup, I made a mistake. Called a cut on "Yellow", and the race went on for a couple laps and the marshal said over the radio "There isn't a yellow". Oops. Couldn't stay for the whole Nats - Combat started up so I went over there to fly. Quite fun, but you were glad the morning was over and you could bring your chin back down again.

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Dave, Gary, et.al.,

I’m rather disappointed to hear that the oldest curse to pylon racing is still alive at the Nats. For those that do not know about the term frequency ganging, it is a method that has been used for years to skew a contest so that the average guy or pair of guys have little or no chance of winning at a big contest like the nationals.

How it works – groups of individuals all decide to concentrate their entries on one frequency. Usually these groups are composed of extremely talented fliers. I believe at one time the Nats allowed as many as 25% of the entries to enter on one frequency. That made sense when we only had 6 frequencies to chose from, but not after 1991 we have had 15 frequencies. At that’s not counting the Ham bands that some fly on.

So by having the top fliers all on one frequency, they do not have to lose points to each other. The remaining field may also have fast people, but since it is more likely those without the frequency umbrella will loose more points through the contest than those on the frequency. So at the end of the contest, the contest is really between the ones that were on the selected frequency. Since guys tend to cut on occasion, mid-air, and have other miscellaneous troubles, only a few will be left to fly out for the win.

It would rather interesting to see who was on what frequencies at each nationals for the past 10 years, or even 20 years. You would be able to see the pattern. It is cheating just as much as using an illegal engine or fuel. It is pylon’s dirty little secret

I would expect a team of two guys on the same frequency. That makes sense when usually they call for each other. With the numbers of entries at this years nats, were there more than 5 on any frequency?

Dave, how many on 28 and 31?

daven

My Feedback: (1)

Highplains,

I believe they now max out at 6 per frequency now. That would be less than 10% of the fliers in the matrix, however when 6 if them include: Randy, Travis, Fred, Lyle, Mark P., can't remember #6 it does make it tough.

Trust me, I'm not complaining, but it does make it tough. I was only 1 point out of a 5 way tie for 1st place, so the average guy can break through (especially when there is 20 mph winds).

HighPlains

My Feedback: (1)

Dave,

If they limit each frequency to only 6, then I wouldn't consider that frequency ganging. They are prepared for about 90 entries. In the bad old days, you would see 25%. Maybe someday we will have spread spectrum radios so everyone can fly everyone (except maybe their callers).

Twenty mph winds, sounds like a light breeze when you live in Kansas. It's not windy at a contest until 1/3 or more refuse to fly. The worst ever I think was a championship race in Texas. 5 or 6 airplanes blew their center section at pylon one when the gusts added to the turning loads. Sometimes a gust would move your line 20 feet. Then a race at Reno where you had to land fast, hold down elevator and hope that someone could catch the airplane as it was rolling backwards. And a blowout in Vegas. Q40's seem to be stronger than F1's were.