Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

Hi guys-

I don't race any rulebook AMA events, but wanted to get an interpretation from some on issues related to race courses and AMA rules. I tried calling AMA the other day, but didn't get ahold of Steve Kaluf as he wasn't in his office at the moment.

From reading AMA rules, all racing events, regardless of type have certain restrictions. I read it that there are setups which delegate distance to spectators, flight line judges, etc, even if it is not an AMA rulebook event. Is this true?

The reason that I ask is that because I was at a race last weekend that I felt was unsafe. Let me try and explain why and use a photo or diagram to illustrate it. I drew the layout out quickly (very crude) intended to gather opinions. I'm in no way trying to make any waves with this, but I feel that the placement of spectators is totally unsafe.

What my point is is that the spectators at most are 250ft from the pylons. This is ok, but could be better. The spectators are basically aligned up with the pilots stations (About 20 ft back) and only 25 ft from the runway! Do you guys think this is too close? Some of these warbirds were powered by nelsons, dub jetts, or YS 120's. Some fast stuff.

Michael

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

Photo looking out from restricted pit area to runway and right pylon. On the right, you can see the orange spectator fence where spectators were allowed to come up and watch from.

Let me state that I do not know the accurate distances for any of the race setup. They are only estimates on my part.

Michael

Ed Smith

The AMA has specific rules for rule book Pylon Racing events.

Therse rules cover the position and placement of the workforce, the distance from the course for the spectators and the distance from the course that airplanes can fly without being blackflagged.

Most of us have no issue with these rules, as the intent is safety. However the AMA, in my opinion, has singled out Pylon Racing as an evil activity. I see what others get away with, such as the warbird racing mentioned. Scale at the Nats the spectators are sitting on the flightline.

A flyer killed himself with his own airplane a short time ago. There was hardly a mention of it. A couple of years ago a model went through the wire cage of an on course worker who was not injured and racing was banned until the off course worker plan was worked out.

The AMA also forced the off course worker system into the FAI-F3D rule book, against the wishes of most nations.

It kind of leads to the feeling "Why only us?"

Ed S

Jerry-B

I agree completely with Ed. Just wait til a turbine powered plane goes into a crowd because a park flyer turned on 2 blocks away. AMA needs to put ALL park flyers on certain dedicated channels
so they can shoot each other down but other pilots can avoid them.
Ed, thanks for all the great help at the NATS.

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

I agree that the AMA guidelines and rules have lots of areas that we wish were better. I'm just trying to figure out if some of the same racing rules apply to any type of racing. For example, section 4.2 of the radio control pylon racing document from ama's book states "All RC Pylon events and all other events, regardless of sanction, in which engine-powered Rc model aircraft are flown in speed competition over a closed course shall be governed by the following safety procedures:"

scrolling down to 4.2.2

"Pit and spectator areas shall be separated from the racecourse by at least the minimum distances shown on the racecourse diagram."

4.2.2. leads me to believe that in our case of using the off-course pylons, the diagram would apply in some manner...

Thoughts?

Michael

bl10

If you look at page 118 of the new rulebook it details the layout of the two-pole course. According the rules if the engine size is larger than .40 the distance between the poles is 900 feet with the pilot stations half the distance or 450 feet back from the centerline. This distance, half the length of the course, is common for all course layouts with minor differences but still pretty much the same. Note also the spectator line is half or 225 feet behind the pilot stations. This distance, 1/4 the length of the course, is also used to determine the minim distance from pylon 1 to the edge of the pits / spectator area. In the case of rulebook events the CD must certify the course meets all these requirements prior to the issue of a sanction. In many cases no sanction is applied for or the event is classified as "C" non-rule book in which case the sanction is issued with no questions asked.

Just a word to the wise. In conversations with the AMA and my own Liability carrier there is a real possibility that if an accident occurred during a race and the course was deemed unsafe because of dimensional variances from the rule book both AMA and Personal Home Owners / Liability insurance may not apply. It is up to us to insure all facets of a race, rulebook event or not, adhere to AMA guidelines to insure adequate insurance coverage.





Barry

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

Here's our field's layout during warbird/t-34 racing and how we generally setup a pylon course. This puts spectators at about 325 ft from the pylons. I feel this is a relatively safe setup, especially compared to a lot of the fields that I fly at.

Michael

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

Also, after thinking about the layout of the field I was at this past weekend and the numbers I put in the diagram, I believe the spectator to pylon distance was probably 200ft or less. I was way too generous in the diagram. this applies to the first two messages I posted in this thread.

Michael

PylonWorld

Mike,

Steve is busy with the Nats. However, I've had a lot of contact with him prior to and during the Nats because of providing the pylons for Q-500 and Q-40.

I've been working on some electric rules and asked him for a clarification. This is his response:

Electric uses all channels. Electric pylon at the Nats is not flown to AMA rules, rather NEAC rules. Yes they must use the same setbacks are regular pylon.

All of the rules in the R/C Pylon Racing section apply to all racing, whether it is a rulebook event or not, combustion, electric, or sailplane. Some people may not want to hear that, but if any person other than the pilots, starter, and starter's assistant is closer than 300 feet to the course centerline, you are violating the AMA code.

I mentioned that it is hard for course workers to see a Speed 400 pylon plane from 300 feet and he basically responded that it doesn't matter. This is the law dictated by the insurance agreement.

So read all of the rules in the R/C Pylon Racing section at Radio Control Pylon Racing and let people know that they MUST adhere to the rules. A club's charter can be pulled for violating these rules.

Now, that said, it is possible to obtain a waiver if the AMA District VP approves the change(s). There are certain changes that are acceptable if you read the rules carefully. For instance one passage says that if the course cannot be set up so that course workers are a minimum of 300 feet away cages can be used.

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

I believe there's a lot of ambiguity in the rules per say. Like I said above, I take it that the main rules apply to ALL racing. For instance, we have adopted the hard hat rule since its inception, but there is physically no way that I can have the pylons 900 feet apart at our field, not to mention having the pylons 450 feet out!. That would be one heck of a parallax for pilots...

Sometimes I wish SFA still were around. I can't tell you how much having competition forced AMA to give in on some issues and work with the members more!

Anyways, looks like I've got some decisions ahead of me as we have a race in 2 weeks....

Michael

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

UPDATE:

I obtained a waiver from the AMA for our latest Warbird race in Morgan Hill on Aug 10th. Our dimensions were not that far off from the AMA rulebook, but with a reduced course size. I have attached a diagram, as presented to the AMA in my requesting document for the waiver.

On the insurance side, it is my belief that if AMA issues a waiver, they will back you in the event of an accident. Why would they not?

At this point, I am still not sure of the exact process and regulations as applied to us and have asked for more detail from the AMA and our district rep.

Interestingly enough, I did meet a gentleman from the SWRA whom happened to be at our race to watch. I didn't get a chance to ask his name, but he explained the setup that they are using in Arizona.

Michael

PylonWorld

I'm glad you were able to run the event with some peace of mind.

So how did the Tsunami brothers do? You could post the results to your club's entry in the Racing Club roster for all to see.

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

In a short story, I did not race my Tsunami. Because of the way the rules are written, advanced composite skin hinging, etc is not allowed. I knew it when I built the plane and brought it for show. Most of the competitors wanted me to race, but I did not want to start a war over things. Aside from that, the plan was to help my brother race and I was very tired from a long week anyways, which included trying to keep up with getting the waiver. Chris did ok, but had motor problems. He flew a World models Dago Red (Actually a Stiletto because he took the scoop off) with a Webra 1.20. In the 3rd heat, he midaired and survived. His carbon prop ate right through the other plane. We later discovered that Chris's plane was damaged and he elected not to fly. It was one of those things that you don't know exactly the extent of the damage till you pull the covering as the wing sheeting showed lengthwise cracks.

I'll post pics maybe tonight in the scale forum. Just have too many things on my plate though as I leave on vacation for New York in 5 days.

Michael

Mluvara

My Feedback: (10)

Spoke to District 10 AVP, Rich Hansen today. He was able to clear things up for me and has been the one pushing the AMA to realize that these rules impacted a lot of club events.

In summary, if a club is holding a race and applies for an event sanction, or does not apply for a sanction, the AMA assumes one is meeting the AMA safety code when the race is put on.

If the club is holding a race and does not meet the AMA safety code for their pylon layout, they need to apply for a waiver for their particular event. If the AMA district VP approves the waiver, the AMA will "go to bat" so to speak in the event of needing insurance and legal support. This means that they will support you, as long as the AMA code and guidelines in the waiver are adhered to.

Basically, if a race layout does not meet the AMA safety code, or one violates the waiver they may get approved, the AMA will not back you up.

So, I will be applying for an approved race site layout for our events. We will have to have this approved by our district VP and then send a copy with an event sanction. This is going to require that an event sanction is applied for any racing event we hold, even though they are not rulebook events. Just a little more work for the "club" racing events, but its necessary for insurance support.

Michael

Troy-RCU

My Feedback: (1)

RE: unsafe flight line distances.
I just got back from the F5D World Champs in Switzerland and there was somewhat of an issue over the distance of the closest pylon and the pits/organizer tent. They claimed that in the rulebook it was only required that 45 meters was needed to be official. So, they did 55 meters to be "safe" but if you can imagine that's only about 180 feet. If you flew over this "safety line" you got a cut. That was the deterant from overflying #3 on the way to #1. There were several cases where planes right over the tents and one was especially scary causing a couple people to dive for terra firma. There was at least a 10ft high netting along the pit area for added safety but I'm not sure how it will hold up to a 175mph incoming missile. It's not the airframe I'm worried about but the motor and batteries that always seem to squirt out the front of the fuse on sudden impact like a bratty, red-headed step child jumping on a package of ketchup in the parking lot of Mickie D's..... I guess it is suprising to me that people would rather stick their nose in a book for answers vs. looking around and using common sense and realizing the rule book may be wrong or outdated.
Glad there are other guys looking out for the safety of others. Go fast, turn left

CrashBevil

I have been reading the above posts with much interest and I have a question that has not been addressed:
When flying a 3 pylon course, where do the pilots stand during the race.
I hate to be pushy, but I will be flying in my first sanctioned race and need to know how to practice.
Thanks

Ed Smith

On a three pylon race course the pilots stand usualy a few feet ahead of being between the two and three pylon.

Ed S

splatt

Boy what a feeling. When racing watch others and take your place just a antenna length away from other pilots. The area around turn three is a red zone. Stay closer to 2 than 3. If you do some surf'in I think there's a web site from Europe that explains the lay out to some degree. Good luck

PJ_TankPilot

Try to find an experienced caller to help. They can get you up to speed quickly. They know the drill and can give lots of tips. A good caller is half the battle won. You can concentrate on the other half.