p51mech38

My Feedback: (3)

Ok I have a little issue at our club that involves pylon racing during non-race weekends. We do both T-34 and a few scale warbird races each year at our club. Not into the T-34 but I am all about the warbird races as are many of the other club members. My issue is this... At other clubs what is the rules about people practicing during non-race weekends. Like I said before I am not anti-pylon. Being that I build full sized pylon racing aircraft that would just be silly. We have now had more than a few near hits between students, sport flyers vs. guy doing hot laps on the pylon course. Is this allowed at other AMA clubs? Is it a written rule or spoken rule? How far should he fly from the edge of the runway? It is only one or two guys, but it has caused enough issuses that a fight almost broke out today. I had a student on a buddy cord flying a fixed pattern, and so did another instructor in the box next to me. He had just gone up, I was about to come in. I got the aircraft from the student and called landing. About then with no call out a guy with a Dago Red p-51 rips out on the flight line and takes off. I call landing from the right once more. Just as the aircraft is about 50 ft off the end of the runway the mustang come from the left at eye level towards my students airplane. I keep my cool and get it on the ground.
Now this is where it gets good! I walked over to the guy and very nicely ASKED "Please don't do hot laps when we have students out on the cord". He just gets an attitude and barks back " If I was doing hot laps you would know it". At this point I don't even waste my steam on the guy. I just turned around and started walking back to my pit. The only issue is that my student (A very large black man from Oakland and one of my dearest friends) didn't see it the same way I did. He was pretty pissed that his brand new Alpha 60 almost got stuffed after 3 flights because of this jackass. Long story short this skinny kid about gets the beating of a lifetime because he just starts running his mouth about how he has the right to do what ever he wants. I think it just takes a tand... not much common sense to not be doing hot laps on the pylon course with two students learning to fly for the first time. What do you other pylon junkies think.

aussiesteve

Sounds to me like the issue is not so much about the pylon course but the Dago Red guys lack of manners in not calling that he was coming out or doing a pass through the landing area.
I'd say he would probably have deserved the beating - something his Momma probably should have given him a long time ago by the sounds of it.

We have an unwritten rule that if people want to practice their pylon etc, they do so when it suits others - we are lucky though that the pylons can be moved to an area well away from the runway. Either way, it is a manners issue and we insist on everybody following the normal practice of calling when they are coming out, landing or doing passes near to the runway.

We also have a rule that when a student who is still on the buddy box is flying, we give them as much airspace as possible so that they can get off the box and progress as quickly as possible. This is good for all concerned - there's nothing worse than being involved in an incident which could easily have been avoided had the inexperienced pilot been more experience or had manners been used.

I was involved in an incident a couple of years ago when I had a 60 size 3d'er set up to land and a 2m aerobat flew through the middle of me right near the end of the runway. It was a no blame situation because we had both called but not heard each other (We were at opposite ends of the flight line). We laughed about it after even though both planes were severely damaged - it did look kind of spectacular though.

Trollmaster

I don't think I could reply without being offensive but I'll say this on students. I see way too many instructors letting students just fly al lover the damn place with no resemblance of a standard flight pattern at all. With that being said, if the students get nailed due to this, then so what. Our field has the combinations you mentioned above done routinely because we enforce a traffic pattern

aussiesteve

Yep
100% agreement on that one.
We reinforce traffic patterns to all fliers and instill that immediately into all our students.
When the students first start to fly, we fly them away from the traffic area until they have learnt the basics of control (usually only their first few flights). The layout of our field allows us to do that with our backs to the sun on all but a few days of the year. We also try to fly them when there are few if any others flying - especially during the early days of their learning.

Oldbob

There must be something in your drinking water that makes some of your club members so stupid. Here in Texas USA, where the water is good for you, we always give a student on a cord the right-of –way. If one of us wants to do Hot Laps we walk the line and ask everyone if it’s OK. We never get any objection and everyone else will not fly for the four or five minutes it takes to show off our speed. Others would rather watch then being run over by some idiot that fails to communicate.

Bob (Fly Friendly)

aussiesteve

???
I didn't think taking caution was stupid.
Based on the information in the original post, it would appear that the whole issue was caused by someone not doing what you suggested.

BTW - The mid-air I was referring to in my post happened in - TEXAS USA.

DavidAgar

My Feedback: (108)

Most clubs have an established flight pattern for all flying. At our club the experianced flyers always let the students have the field to them selves so as to avoid issue's like the one that has been mentioned. I am an instructor and while I do teach my students to fly a pattern, in the early stages of learning a student can and will go all over the sky. I always work with a student to get them back in the pattern and I really appriciate the fact that there are no other planes in the air to worry about. Once the student has landed all other flying resumes. It is just a field courtesy, as we were all new flyers at one time or another. Good Luck, Dave

p51mech38

My Feedback: (3)

Thanks guys for the info. Like I said in my post my student was in a fixed patten. I have five pilot ratings so trust me I am very strict with student on devloping this habit. I will even make them call right traffic or left traffic depending on the direction of pattern rotation. Also have them call a 45 when changing rotation of the pattern.

gunfighter

My Feedback: (1)

Ausiesteve - Just because you were IN Texas does not mean you are FROM Texas!

We have more manners than to do "hot laps" or low passes down the runway when others are in the air - ESPECIALLY A BEGINNER!

That kind of flying is not tolerated at any of the fields I fly at and would be grounds for a severe dressing down!
[:@]

We routinely fly practice laps at several fields, and like Antique Opa said, the other pilots usually stay down when we fly. We don't take advantage of them and only fly laps during a "lull" in the action.

aussiesteve

And thank the lord for that
Seriously though. My original post was along the same lines as everybody elses thoughts - Give the students the chance to learn to fly safely without scaring them. Todays student is potentially tomorrows champion pilot or instructor etc. the whole issue appears to be by somone who didn't have the manners to allow the student some room and also it seems that didn't follow the standard protocol of calling his intentions. It seems to me that most of the replies to the original post are in agreement
Let the guys do hot laps away from the students, let the students learn without the concern of mid-airs and Always call your intentions when near the runway.

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

It goes both ways. I have called dead stick loud enough for the guys in the shed to hear but not the guy putt putting a 1.20 rascal or some huge slow thing like that. Only to have him do a touch an go at the same time I am landing my Predator. I didn't bother him the whole time he was in the air but he sure got me hot when I didn't/couldn't see my plane land. It took great self control not to do a channel check the next time he was up on my same channel.
There is more to the story. The point is courtesey is the best rule to follow. The next one is to man-up when you screw-up and say sorry.

p51mech38

My Feedback: (3)

Yeah I think that's what got us so heated. The guy just kept saying "whatever" and never even acknowledged thet he was doing something wrong. I am not perfect if I come wide out of a turn and go over my personal deadline (runway edge) I will call out a big "sorry everybody".

fizzwater2

My Feedback: (61)

our club has a "trainer night" where the instructors come out to help new flyers, and other folks can fly, but they're encouraged to respect the new flyers. We also then have a "pylon night" where the poles can be set up for practice, and the new guys would have to wait on the pylon flyers.. it seems to work pretty well.

p51mech38

My Feedback: (3)

UPDATE. Just because it was so damn funny when I heard it. Dude called the club pres to complain... About the how our cussing him out offended him That guys kid has a fouler mouth. I hope you find this forum ya dirtbag, and get a clue. Maybe I will just copy this whole thing, and pin up on the TX impound. Maybe because I work around full sized aircraft that I have grown to respect it and the 800 mph machette it swings. I am glad I have become a instructor because at least I can do something to teach good habits instead of just piss and moan about it. I am learning in the past few days that alot of new club members are self taught. Well no wonder these guys have such bad habits. I am a young guy too. I just feel embarrassed for my generation some times. Maybe it is just Reno but a ton of the young guys here just have no respect for anything... Not even their own safety. I am talking guys in their 30s that should know better acting like a 20 year old frat boy who thinks that kind of stuff only happens to other pilots. So I really know they have no respect for anybody elses safty. Next club meeting will be interesting for sure. Again thanks for giving some insite into how other clubs handle these things.

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

Funny, The guy I was mentioning called the prez too. He was new to the club and got schooled quickly that I am not known to fit the description given. Fortunately for me one of the older guys cooled me down to keep my less than desireable personality traits from being exposed. Lucky me has not seen him again either.

p51mech38

My Feedback: (3)

You have those too. I hate when they come out, but man people are getting pretty carelees these days. This is what happens when Jonny Knoxville and Jackass become roll models for a whole generation of males Or some sort of acid sperm or something. Maybe the cat from Texas was right... something in the water. Personally I am just going to go back to flying weekdays... less kooks! I have a really nice 1/7 Sea Fury of Race 99 Riff Raff and an engine and retracts away from finishing a 1/4 Strega P-51R built out of a retired racer that I got from an Estate sale out at Stead Airport. I really don't want to bust either one of those up because of some clown. Way more work than the ARFs I tend to sport fly.

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

Be respectful of the "other pilots"......... remember....... your a minority ......in a club of many non racers.

If you don't "give way" you will end up with less racing not more,
as rest of the folks will get fed up with the constant race practice. Ever try to fly
with someone practicing Imac or pattern--- not much fun and
it does affect your flight so be respectful......... and don't affect everyone elses.

If you have to practice constantly.... like some people I know of
...you should realize .....you suck and more practice won't make any difference
because when your racing your not flying alone.

It is always more Cool to race "cold" than to have .....practiced to death.

Don't piss off the rest of the pilots cause it will give your club a bad name,
you don't want your club to get the Rep of........ "they only do racing over there".
it drives away the rest of the members with the other "cool aircraft."
then everybody else gets bored watching the same stuff.
This goes for ANY CLUB.

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

Race pace for a .25 T-6 is hardly scary. The average Superstar would make a good run on it. The idea of someone not manning up to a poor decision or action is the root of the problem.

I suck at satisfying my wife too but I am not about to stop practicing.[sm=bananahead.gif]

diggs_74

I must say vicman, that's funny right there, I don't care who you are..

John Casey

My Feedback: (4)

That was funny, but practicing on your wife does not effect
everyone else trying to fly "normally" at the flying site.

Someone turning laps constantly....... does.

Clubs take the pylons down after events to discourage that bad and unsportsmanlike flying.

Super Splatter

Have a nice day[&:]

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

So John, considering your notorious efforts to get along with club members. I am a little curious, what the difference is between a solo student simply flying a basic oval pattern at full throttle with .46 trainer usually capable of 40-50 miles an hour for "normal" practice flying and me flying the same oval just pretending it's a pylon course with my .25 size T-6 maybe capable of 50 mph in a tailwind?
Aren't they both simply laps?
Also why do you fail to comment on handling the situation after someone gets upset in a peaceful manner? Would you rather a committe be formed and rules issued and members who like fast airplanes or those that fly basic ovals be banned? Then we could have club members duke it out here in RCU and bore the seekers of knowledge to death with endless drivvel about who is right.
It seems the issue is not what you fly and how but how you deal with somone elses poor character.

Trollmaster

Boy can we take off with this one. I was "in" Texas for 4 years and don't go bragging about it thats for sure.[sm=lol.gif]

Jezmo

This is getting good, think I will make some popcorn. [8D]

s-10promod

Sounds like several of you need to go fly your planes and lighten up!!!!