DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

The AMA Rules Cycle is coming to a close for proposals very soon.

R/C Pylon Racing has changed a lot in the past couple of years. Sport racing is booming.

I would like to see new courses added to accommodate events like Club 40. Some would say that Club 40 has to be in the rulebook first. I'm not sure that is true. Courses could be designated for speed ranges instead of engine displacement. AMA 422 and 428 were originally run on the AMA Short Course. But as their speed increased, the change was made to the Long Course.

Plus electric racing, while still in its infancy, needs guidelines in the rulebook. I have seen some scary electric pylon videos with people under the pylons.

Setting course size by speed makes sense. The Control Line Speed line sizes and pull tests are adjusted with speed. So there is precedence there. Radar guns are readily available now. So setting course size based on speed and/or model weight is something to consider, in my opinion.

While trhis may be a "hot" topic, let's try to have some sensible discussion.

Jim Duda

I'll offer that an important contributing factor to the "booming" of Sport racing is simply many more fields can accommodate the 400 foot course instead of the longer ones (either 2 or 3 pole). I believe that anything under 120 mph can be safely (and fairly easily) be flown on a 2 pole ~400 footer.

Now, whether or not the AMA will allow waivers for that extra 20 mph so we can keep our present (at least in Texas) Club 40 courses remains to be seen...

What do the AMA Safety Directors think?

gunfighter

My Feedback: (1)

Jim,

I agree with you, however, it is not up to the safety coordinators. As I understand it, it would first need to go through the Pylon Racing committee (talk to your buddy Mike Helsel).

We could submit an "urgent" rules change proposal but that usually is reserved for changes related to safety.

I am not sure how favorably the request will be looked at if there is not a recognized class to utilize the requested course(s).

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

Jim,

You are correct that the shorter ~400' course is more doable at many clubs. Even 396' is fairly long at many club fields. Especially when terrain and obstacles are considered along with the ~250' from the flightline to the pylons.

I have set up a 400' course at Charlotte Aeromodelers (CA) and at Mt. Pleasant multiple times. This weekend, I tried to setup a 700' RCPRO Warbird Racing course with a left offset at CA. I couldn't get the full 700' and had to settle for the AMA 660' course with a left offset. And CA has a 100 acre or more flyover area.

Chuck,

The current AMA R/C Pylon Racing rules have 2 pole courses that are not for the "Event Specific Formulas". So I don't think that Club 40 has to be in the rulebook to get the course in the rulebook. That is up to the committee of course.

All,

One reason for getting the courses into the rulebook is that club officers and CD's feel more comfortable knowing that they are meeting established AMA guidelines. The first question I get asked is "Can we get an AMA sanction?". Club 40 races have already been sanctioned. But waivers were obtained for the courses. If waivers are not required, getting sanctions will be no problem.

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

The 1.5 mile courses, for under 100 mph racing

I have been running a 400'x400'x100' course on my field. But I've done some testing and I've changed it to 348'x348'x100' and it works well for Club 40 and Quickie 25. And it matches up with the 396' two pole course the guys are using in Texas for Club 40 at 1.5 miles for 10 laps. I wish I had written them up and submitted it as the "Less than 100 mph" courses. An AMA executive and I talked about it a week ago at a .25 AT-6 race where I was doing a Club 40 demo. One issue we talked about was how to govern the speed. Unfortunately I did not think of using a "break-out" time until this weekend. It is very simple to calculate the minimum 10 lap time that exceeds the "speed limit". You can even use a fudge factor and say that a 10 lap time of 1 minute or less is too fast, and the event formula has to move up to the 2 mile course. 1 minute on a 1.5 mile trek is 90 mph. The best Texas Club 40 guys are hitting around the 1:20 mark for the 2 pole course. It is possible to break 1:00 with a 424 plane and a tight course, at least on 348'x348'x100'. Didn't try 424 on a 396'x396' because it effectively becomes one big turn at 424 speed and above.

It would be nice to get these courses into the AMA rulebook with smaller setbacks so that sanctions can be obtained without waivers at clubs that are hosting Club 40 races. I think I missed the cut-off date. But maybe someone already submitted the 396' two pole course.

StanDouglas

Don,
Several of us do fly the 396' course with 424 airplanes and it's not a continuous turn; you're not banking and yanking hard enough

There is even one individual, who will remain unnamed, who has flown the course with a 428; very scary[>:]

Stan D.

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

Jim,
Did I read this right??? You guys are getting a buck forty out of a C-40 plane?[X(]

gunfighter

My Feedback: (1)

Several of our club 40 group recently flew 424 for the first time and enjoyed it very much. We are talking about the possibility of holding 1 or more 424 only races next year on a 2 pole course. We have discussed the possibility of using a 450 ft. course as most of our fields are not large enough for a 600 ft. course.

I would also like to see a few shorter courses included in the AMA rules, but based on experience in the R/C combat arena, the race / safety comittees will be more favorable if we have some "test data" to present with an application. This can only be accomplished by running a few races on the proposed course(s). Then present that data along with a rule change proposal.

I think it is very "doable" but will require some thought and a little work. I will definately support the proposal.

gunfighter

My Feedback: (1)

Vicman - If you mean 140 mph, NO! We are flying about 90 - 95 mph.
If you mean 1:40 times on a 400' (396') course, we beat that on a regular basis. Our average times for 10 laps, standing start (from idle) on a 396 - 400' course are in the high 1:30's with several times in the mid 1:20's. This is the "Advanced" class running TT Pro 40 and GMS 40 engines.

We have had one Novice pilot (with an OS LA bushing engine) turn in a high 1:40 time! He "skinned" the pylon at each turn!

fizzwater2

My Feedback: (61)

Don - I'm pretty sure the cutoff date was September 30th. Cross your fingers, maybe someone submitted something similar to what you're talking about.

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

Chuck,

I think the 2 pole course is already proven by you guys and the waiver that you have been using. You already have the course layout and you have race times to use.

I'm running a race on 10-13 on a 3 pole course and we can establish times for Club 40 at the minimum. We will also have some guys running Quickies with 25's on them and they should be comparable. Officials will be 250' to 300' from the course. Spectators further than that. But we can make adjustments and see what works.

Jim Duda

vicman - I meant the additional 20 mph to the Club 40 Raider (95 - 100 mph). Since the present waivers (at least for Texas) allow shorter setbacks based on sub 100 mph (Raider) types, and the Viper/Predator types with the Raider motors are around 120 mph, I'm hoping they will allow us to use 424 type planes on the 396' course with the Club 40 setbacks so we can race at our existing fields. As Stan mentioned above, a 424 can be flown fairly easily on these short courses. Maybe not by a true beginner but certainly by experienced Club 40 drivers.

And as Gunfighter said, 424 is fun (especially on a 396' two pole course) and might interest the guys suffering from "Club 40 burnout" that still have that "need for speed" who fly from small fields.

Anyway, that's what I was trying to say...

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

Jim,

Have you guys timed a 424 on the 396' 2 pole course?

With the shorter course, the speeds/times may be down because there is not a lot of straight-away.

424 should be quite exciting on a 396' course. I'll have to try it and see if I can bank and yank a little harder (Stan ) ...

vicman

My Feedback: (10)

Thanks for the explanations before I said you guys were nuts.

2-pole 424 sound awsome to me.
Don, I don't think I will be able to do 424 on the 13th but everything else is a go.

gunfighter

My Feedback: (1)

Don,
I agree we have sufficient data for the 396 - 400' 2 pole course. What other sizes would you propose?

I think the Texas group will most likely fly some 396' 2 pole 424 in the very near future, so we should be able to supply data on that also.

Looks like we have plenty of time now before the next cycle!

DonStegall

My Feedback: (1)

Chuck,

I think the 2 pole course is the ticket for many clubs. But there are still people willing to put on 3 pole races. Club 40 planes do fine on the 3 pole course.

What I proposed was a 348'x348'x100' three course for racing in the 100 mph or less category. Club 40 falls into that range. So does Quickie 25 (Quickies with .25 engines). Barry Leavengood has been using a 300'x300'x100' course for Slow Quickie, T-6, and trainer racing. Using the size I have been testing with, and will be using on 10-13, the 10 lap distance is 1.5 miles which matches your 396' two pole course.

I think the 396' two pole course can also be used for generic 100 mph or less racing. This can be Club 40, Quickie 25, T-6, some forms of electric racing, etc.

The point is that 100 mph is a magic mark in terms of pilot demands, much more so than any displacement rules can govern. While some people don't like the idea of four stroke engines for racing, there are plenty that do. And the 100 mph or below mark opens up smaller setbacks than the current setbacks based on displacement.

While the submission for the AMA rules cycle has passed, there is no reason to not work on establishing the 1.5 mile courses. Even if it is for the next rules cycle. There are plenty of ways that new rules can be established. The main thing is to get them into the rulebook so we don't have to mess with waivers. As I said above, the time of 1:00 can be used as the "break-out" time that moves an event specific formula onto the 2.0 or 2.5 mile courses.

Maybe the magic mark is 120 mph and 424 can be used on a 1.5 mile course. Or perhaps the setbacks are increased for 120 mph or below.