Mid-Air Collisions
04-05-2002, 01:47 AM
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Mid-Air Collisions
I am the moderator for the pylon forum on rcairplanes.net and I began this topic on that forum. Since this site sees quite a bit more traffic, I want to post the topic here as well.
What is the general consensus where mid airs are concerned? If in the middle of a racing heat two or more planes collide, who is at fault? If two top name pilots smack together and both planes are destroyed, I think that both racers would likely say it was just bad luck. Same thing if the collision involved only novices; it was just bad luck. But what if the crash involves an erratic novice and a more experienced and consistent racer? It seems to me that in this situation the more seasoned flyer could try to place the blame on the novice. Too, the novice might accept blame when perhaps he shouldn't.
Growing up in this hobby, I've always believed that when both planes are airborne, if they collide, nobody is at fault and the crash is just bad luck.
Let's hear your opinions...
What is the general consensus where mid airs are concerned? If in the middle of a racing heat two or more planes collide, who is at fault? If two top name pilots smack together and both planes are destroyed, I think that both racers would likely say it was just bad luck. Same thing if the collision involved only novices; it was just bad luck. But what if the crash involves an erratic novice and a more experienced and consistent racer? It seems to me that in this situation the more seasoned flyer could try to place the blame on the novice. Too, the novice might accept blame when perhaps he shouldn't.
Growing up in this hobby, I've always believed that when both planes are airborne, if they collide, nobody is at fault and the crash is just bad luck.
Let's hear your opinions...
04-05-2002, 02:41 AM
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Midairs
Pylon is one of the smaller disciplines in model sport and unfortunately midairs are part and parcel of that activity (probably more than we care to admit) at all the skill levels and pilot mixes.
I think any attempt to lay blame would be foolhardy indeed as well as possibly even put the sport we all love so much at risk.
John
I think any attempt to lay blame would be foolhardy indeed as well as possibly even put the sport we all love so much at risk.
John
04-05-2002, 03:57 AM
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rubbing is rac'in
mmm… ya know, I think a mid-air is gods message to back off a little bit. Just kidding, most pilots are gonna midair sooner of later, getting past the love loss of a lost plane or the bruising of a ego is a big part in whether a racer is gonna stick with racing and grow into a good competitor. I’ve had a chance to race with some fantastic racers that helped me with the basics and beared with me when I lost my cool.
I build or at least assemble sound equipment, I practice, I try to fly above the poles. I also try to push people to the outside if I’m inside, a nasty habit that sometimes makes my plane go splatt. I don’t try to aim at someone, I just try race them around the corners and place myself in the favorable position for the next corner. Maybe that’s why I was the cut king last year.
This of course is just a psych to my competors and moderators out there wondering if they should be on the same field as me. As long as there’s racing there will be risks, that’s half the reason we do it. Keep it safe, keep it fun, keep it light on the attitude and I’ll keep racin’in.
I build or at least assemble sound equipment, I practice, I try to fly above the poles. I also try to push people to the outside if I’m inside, a nasty habit that sometimes makes my plane go splatt. I don’t try to aim at someone, I just try race them around the corners and place myself in the favorable position for the next corner. Maybe that’s why I was the cut king last year.
This of course is just a psych to my competors and moderators out there wondering if they should be on the same field as me. As long as there’s racing there will be risks, that’s half the reason we do it. Keep it safe, keep it fun, keep it light on the attitude and I’ll keep racin’in.
04-05-2002, 04:22 AM
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Mid-Air Collisions
John,
You should post at least part of your second post on the other board over here.
With new people coming in, and with the effort to bring them in, maybe a code of conduct is not a bad idea.
I was over at Lowes Motor Speedway on Wednesday. NASCAR has a written and spoken code of conduct, and they have the unspoken, but known code of conduct that fills in a lot of the gaps of the known code. But NASCAR has many tiers you have to travel up and knowing the code is developed over time. NASCAR starts kids at 8 years old in structured competition. Go to 600 Racing. My almost 8 year old son and I toured the factory. There is one jig that all Bandeleros are built on. There are two seals on the engine to prevent cheating. It's a real cool concept. They also have rules of conduct and are black flagged if they violate them.
Maybe you could write up a Pylon Racing Code of Conduct and post it in this forum for discussion. I'll post it with your name as the author (and any contributors) on PylonWorld. Or we can form an RCPRO committee to tackle it. BTW, Sorry the RCPRO confirmations haven't gone out ... but we are growing and still in membership drive mode.
You should post at least part of your second post on the other board over here.
With new people coming in, and with the effort to bring them in, maybe a code of conduct is not a bad idea.
I was over at Lowes Motor Speedway on Wednesday. NASCAR has a written and spoken code of conduct, and they have the unspoken, but known code of conduct that fills in a lot of the gaps of the known code. But NASCAR has many tiers you have to travel up and knowing the code is developed over time. NASCAR starts kids at 8 years old in structured competition. Go to 600 Racing. My almost 8 year old son and I toured the factory. There is one jig that all Bandeleros are built on. There are two seals on the engine to prevent cheating. It's a real cool concept. They also have rules of conduct and are black flagged if they violate them.
Maybe you could write up a Pylon Racing Code of Conduct and post it in this forum for discussion. I'll post it with your name as the author (and any contributors) on PylonWorld. Or we can form an RCPRO committee to tackle it. BTW, Sorry the RCPRO confirmations haven't gone out ... but we are growing and still in membership drive mode.
04-05-2002, 04:33 AM
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Mid-Air Collisions
I go out there, have fun and accept whatever happens. I've had my share of mid-airs in twenty years of racing but I always go back for more. I try not to let crashes get me down.
Rick Marquez
69B
Rick Marquez
69B
04-05-2002, 04:46 AM
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collisions
John,
You should post at least part of your second post on the other board over here.
You should post at least part of your second post on the other board over here.
Now let's say that the heat consists of an "expert" and three novices who are battling for second place in the heat. And let's say that the expert is out in front by just about a lap or so. I think then it's the responsibility of the expert to show curtesy and fly higher and perhaps not be agressive in lapping the other contestants and flying through traffic.
04-05-2002, 05:23 AM
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more collisions
Don,
My intended purpose in raising this topic is to gather a general feeling from all who race regarding collisions.
Where I'm coming from, I intend to enter the Q40 arena this year. I would feel exceedingly bad if I mid-aired with say, Lyle, Darrol, Chip (the list goes on) because of my flying style. Or maybe a better way to put it would be to say my lack of style.
That being said, I agree with others who've stated that all flying (especially racing) is risky and when you race, you accept the risks.
I guess I'm wary of people who tend to be hotheaded and would try to blame the crash on the newbie.
I guarantee you that if I were to TRY to hit your plane with mine I could not do it. Therefore, to try and avoid a mid-air seems equally pointless unless you fly so high off the course as to not be competitive.
Two seasons ago, I was involved in a 428 heat with three other pilots. Two were definitely better and more experienced than I. The last pilot was about at my level. I came in second on that heat for a couple of reasons: 1) One of the better pilots cut out, and 2) I was aggressive and held off the other better pilot from lapping me.
After we all landed, he (1st place) came up to me and said that he backed off some because he didn't want to risk a mid-air. He also said that he and I had a very similar style coming around 2 and 3. I told him "I didn't realize I had a style." All this to say that I would not have earned 3 points for that heat if I hadn't flown aggressively.
As for a "Code of Conduct" I would really want to stay away from stating specific instances of this or that behavior. Generally, I would say that it is expected that everyone behave like grown-ups and not like professional athletes. Treat everyone with respect and kindness. You are sworn enemies on the line but once you get back on the ground, that attitude must end.
Ok, well there is one example of bad behavior that I abhor. That is when someone insults, yells at, or blames a course worker for some perceived error on his or her part. The workers are spending their time WORKING (usually volunteer) so that we can have fun flying our toy airplanes. Never, ever, ever treat the workers of our races with anything but the highest regard!
My intended purpose in raising this topic is to gather a general feeling from all who race regarding collisions.
Where I'm coming from, I intend to enter the Q40 arena this year. I would feel exceedingly bad if I mid-aired with say, Lyle, Darrol, Chip (the list goes on) because of my flying style. Or maybe a better way to put it would be to say my lack of style.
That being said, I agree with others who've stated that all flying (especially racing) is risky and when you race, you accept the risks.
I guess I'm wary of people who tend to be hotheaded and would try to blame the crash on the newbie.
I guarantee you that if I were to TRY to hit your plane with mine I could not do it. Therefore, to try and avoid a mid-air seems equally pointless unless you fly so high off the course as to not be competitive.
Two seasons ago, I was involved in a 428 heat with three other pilots. Two were definitely better and more experienced than I. The last pilot was about at my level. I came in second on that heat for a couple of reasons: 1) One of the better pilots cut out, and 2) I was aggressive and held off the other better pilot from lapping me.
After we all landed, he (1st place) came up to me and said that he backed off some because he didn't want to risk a mid-air. He also said that he and I had a very similar style coming around 2 and 3. I told him "I didn't realize I had a style." All this to say that I would not have earned 3 points for that heat if I hadn't flown aggressively.
As for a "Code of Conduct" I would really want to stay away from stating specific instances of this or that behavior. Generally, I would say that it is expected that everyone behave like grown-ups and not like professional athletes. Treat everyone with respect and kindness. You are sworn enemies on the line but once you get back on the ground, that attitude must end.
Ok, well there is one example of bad behavior that I abhor. That is when someone insults, yells at, or blames a course worker for some perceived error on his or her part. The workers are spending their time WORKING (usually volunteer) so that we can have fun flying our toy airplanes. Never, ever, ever treat the workers of our races with anything but the highest regard!
04-05-2002, 06:32 AM
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Mid-Air Collisions
This is an interestng topic. Since I've spent significant time and $$ on the race course in giant scale racing and with other types of racing, I'll add a few notes.
I say that midair's are no one's fault. When the wheels leave the ground on any flight, you kiss the plane goodbye. When it arrives after landing, you hug it and welcome it back. The process then starts all over for each flight....
Racing is interesting. Personally, I fly an agressive course, but will look out for others. I fly above people when passing them and stay away from those that are "not up to par" on the course.
I believe it is as much defensiveness as offensiveness on the race course. I lost an At-6 my second year of giant scale racing. Got a long light on the turn and the other guy got a tight one. We both occupied the same space and lost planes. The midair is on video and while I held my line (may have gained 25-50ft), the other pilot lost about 50 feet in the turn. I say it's no ones fault. Part of racing.
However, I like the idea of a racers code of conduct. I've seen people get midaired for no reason by others that do not watch what they are doing and seem to care less about other pilots. For example, my brother's engine went slightly sour at a warbird race. The engine was still going good at half throttle, but a good 20mph slow (went from 120 to about 100). He flew long and a very consistent course to let others do their thing. One other pilot was faster because his engine was running but was flying all over the place. We verbally warned him to be careful of us and he ended up midairing my brother. Both planes landed, but we were a little upset because the pilot could have avoided this. We did our part - we thought.
But, alas, that is racing.. or maybe we're just too nice of guys.
Michael
http://www.LuvaraAirRacing.com
I say that midair's are no one's fault. When the wheels leave the ground on any flight, you kiss the plane goodbye. When it arrives after landing, you hug it and welcome it back. The process then starts all over for each flight....
Racing is interesting. Personally, I fly an agressive course, but will look out for others. I fly above people when passing them and stay away from those that are "not up to par" on the course.
I believe it is as much defensiveness as offensiveness on the race course. I lost an At-6 my second year of giant scale racing. Got a long light on the turn and the other guy got a tight one. We both occupied the same space and lost planes. The midair is on video and while I held my line (may have gained 25-50ft), the other pilot lost about 50 feet in the turn. I say it's no ones fault. Part of racing.
However, I like the idea of a racers code of conduct. I've seen people get midaired for no reason by others that do not watch what they are doing and seem to care less about other pilots. For example, my brother's engine went slightly sour at a warbird race. The engine was still going good at half throttle, but a good 20mph slow (went from 120 to about 100). He flew long and a very consistent course to let others do their thing. One other pilot was faster because his engine was running but was flying all over the place. We verbally warned him to be careful of us and he ended up midairing my brother. Both planes landed, but we were a little upset because the pilot could have avoided this. We did our part - we thought.
But, alas, that is racing.. or maybe we're just too nice of guys.
Michael
http://www.LuvaraAirRacing.com
04-05-2002, 07:30 AM
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Mid-Air Collisions
If you can walk away from a midair, smiling or joking about what happened, then it shows maturity. No amount of Code can replace maturity. I've had my share of mid-airs and can't say on any of them that someone is at fault. Seems to me flying close and fast has caused more than erratic flying. One wing tip gets touched by another wing tip and there she goes, all over the place.
