Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
09-20-2003, 03:21 PM
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Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Hello
Which battery pack are you using for your giant aircraft? The new Li-poly and Li-ion pack are very attractive with their weight saving! Specially for 72'' to 80'' span where 6oz of weight saving
is always welcome!!
I dont want the same result as this guy below...
Scoubidou
Which battery pack are you using for your giant aircraft? The new Li-poly and Li-ion pack are very attractive with their weight saving! Specially for 72'' to 80'' span where 6oz of weight saving
is always welcome!!I dont want the same result as this guy below...
Scoubidou
09-22-2003, 06:21 AM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
So, no comments in this thread mean Li-ion or Li-poly pack is not recommended for Giant aircraft?[sm=surprised.gif]
Scou
Scou
09-22-2003, 08:35 AM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Scou,
Iwas told by Xavier , he used Li-Po on his 3d Laser park flyer (total weight 16 ouinces...),usually using the standard batteries (I think it's Ni-cad) he flies like 4-5 mins. With Li-Po, he flied up to 15 mins, just to give you an idea...
But this is new on the market Iguees, I never heard of these before.
1- They must be expensive !
2- Charger too must be expensive...?
Iwas told by Xavier , he used Li-Po on his 3d Laser park flyer (total weight 16 ouinces...),usually using the standard batteries (I think it's Ni-cad) he flies like 4-5 mins. With Li-Po, he flied up to 15 mins, just to give you an idea...
But this is new on the market Iguees, I never heard of these before.
1- They must be expensive !
2- Charger too must be expensive...?
09-22-2003, 11:40 AM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Hello Danyboy:
1- They must be expensive !
False, the prices are getting lower every day and now you can buy 1600mamp pack at 32US$
2- Charger too must be expensive...?
20US for li-ion or Lipoly charger.
That new technology will change our hobby. The lithium battery are the half of NIcd-NiMh pack and we dont have to recycle them. There is a really nice report in Model Airplane news (March issue) on li-poly. It think people are conservativ and maybe that's why they are not popular yet
I can save 1/2 pound in my plane if i put these new lithium pack instead of Nicd. That's al lot of weight on 11lbs plane!! Specially for gas engine user (ignition+receiver)
Why people don't jump on it????? [sm=confused.gif][sm=confused.gif][sm=confused.gif]
Which li-ion or lipoly is better?
ref:http://www.bktsi.com/
http://www.batteriesamerica.com/newpage8.htm
http://www.duraliteplus.com/
Scou.
1- They must be expensive !
False, the prices are getting lower every day and now you can buy 1600mamp pack at 32US$
2- Charger too must be expensive...?
20US for li-ion or Lipoly charger.
That new technology will change our hobby. The lithium battery are the half of NIcd-NiMh pack and we dont have to recycle them. There is a really nice report in Model Airplane news (March issue) on li-poly. It think people are conservativ and maybe that's why they are not popular yet
I can save 1/2 pound in my plane if i put these new lithium pack instead of Nicd. That's al lot of weight on 11lbs plane!! Specially for gas engine user (ignition+receiver)
Why people don't jump on it????? [sm=confused.gif][sm=confused.gif][sm=confused.gif]
Which li-ion or lipoly is better?
ref:http://www.bktsi.com/
http://www.batteriesamerica.com/newpage8.htm
http://www.duraliteplus.com/
Scou.
09-23-2003, 08:18 AM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Not expensive ?
1300 mah pack nicad is 14 $. You can use your existing charger, and don't need to buy regulator.
To get similar results (except then the weight saving of Li-ion) with duralite you need:
1400 mah pack - 43$
Li-ion charger - 33 $
regulator - 33$
That makes it about 110 $ compared to the 14$ nicads option.
If you decide to buy your Li-ion equipment from PowerLite, then you'll have to pay much more... (have you seen the ridiculous prices on their flight packs - more then 300 $ for the simplest pack which is meant to be for smaller airplanes).
1300 mah pack nicad is 14 $. You can use your existing charger, and don't need to buy regulator.
To get similar results (except then the weight saving of Li-ion) with duralite you need:
1400 mah pack - 43$
Li-ion charger - 33 $
regulator - 33$
That makes it about 110 $ compared to the 14$ nicads option.
If you decide to buy your Li-ion equipment from PowerLite, then you'll have to pay much more... (have you seen the ridiculous prices on their flight packs - more then 300 $ for the simplest pack which is meant to be for smaller airplanes).
09-23-2003, 12:01 PM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Hello Yanival,
Your are not fair if you do include the Li-ion charger in your cost calculation and don't whit Nicad. Anyway, a Nicad charger is not free!!
Ignition (gas)
2LP610 7.4v 1200mAh 1.9"L x 1.3"W x 0.62"thick 48 gms (1.7 oz) 3.5A typical $ 26.95 ea
Voltage regulator VR5.4 $ 19.95 each
Servos
2LP610 7.4v 1200mAh 1.9"L x 1.3"W x 0.62"thick 48 gms (1.7 oz) 3.5A typical $ 26.95 ea
Voltage regulator VR5.4 $ 19.95 each
total per plane:93.80$
QN-012BC Li-Ion & Li-POLY Smart-Fast 110VAC Charger for 7.4V packs Chg rate= 600mA $ 19.95 ea
from battery america[:'(]
Prices can change from different company. The idea is not to talk about money but the reliability and impact of this new technology in our hobby. If someone propose me a new battery pack that can do exactly the same thing as Nicad for the half of the weight, i will listen him fisrt!
Do you compete in IMAC or pattern contest or want to do 3D stuff? If you don't, stay with Nicad. It will be perfect for your need.
For those you compete, they need the lightest plane as possible!
I am sure they will be whiling to spend a few $$ more for lighter planes.
I am studying the li-poly pack for next plane and it is very attractive for 10-11lbs plane. Removing 1/2 pound of my 11lbs plane can change totally its flying performance. Li-ion seems already an old technology and now, we are talking about li-polymer which are lighter, cheaper, better than li-ion. But before trying it, it will be interresting to get the some users feedback!
Scou.
Your are not fair if you do include the Li-ion charger in your cost calculation and don't whit Nicad. Anyway, a Nicad charger is not free!!
Ignition (gas)
2LP610 7.4v 1200mAh 1.9"L x 1.3"W x 0.62"thick 48 gms (1.7 oz) 3.5A typical $ 26.95 ea
Voltage regulator VR5.4 $ 19.95 each
Servos
2LP610 7.4v 1200mAh 1.9"L x 1.3"W x 0.62"thick 48 gms (1.7 oz) 3.5A typical $ 26.95 ea
Voltage regulator VR5.4 $ 19.95 each
total per plane:93.80$
QN-012BC Li-Ion & Li-POLY Smart-Fast 110VAC Charger for 7.4V packs Chg rate= 600mA $ 19.95 ea
from battery america[:'(]
Prices can change from different company. The idea is not to talk about money but the reliability and impact of this new technology in our hobby. If someone propose me a new battery pack that can do exactly the same thing as Nicad for the half of the weight, i will listen him fisrt!
Do you compete in IMAC or pattern contest or want to do 3D stuff? If you don't, stay with Nicad. It will be perfect for your need.
For those you compete, they need the lightest plane as possible!
I am sure they will be whiling to spend a few $$ more for lighter planes.I am studying the li-poly pack for next plane and it is very attractive for 10-11lbs plane. Removing 1/2 pound of my 11lbs plane can change totally its flying performance. Li-ion seems already an old technology and now, we are talking about li-polymer which are lighter, cheaper, better than li-ion. But before trying it, it will be interresting to get the some users feedback!
Scou.
09-23-2003, 03:23 PM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Li-ion and Li-poly do have the best energy density available, but be very cautious of a cells maximum discharge rating. Lots of the common cells can only be discharged at 2-4C without becoming overloaded. So, you may need to run multiple packs in parallel to get to a usable current rating on bigger planes. Also remember you'll be running all your planes current draw through a voltage regulator. If the voltage regulator becomes overloaded, it can go into thermal shutdown. That means lights out... Sure enough it works, but its very cutting edge($$$$), and a lot less user abuse tolerant than nicads. It requires more support equipment to make it compatible with todays flight systems, not to mention a whole new set of saftey issues to contend with. To lots of folks, more complex is not better, just lighter[sm=wink.gif]
Kevin
Kevin
09-23-2003, 04:19 PM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Duralites and Powerflight systems are Li-ion and are used quite often in Giants.
I use them in most of my planes now.
Jason
I use them in most of my planes now.
Jason
09-23-2003, 04:51 PM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Li-poly is much safer to use then Li-Ion. They are not as prone catching on fire! Most new technology is Li-poly!
I hope our radio manufactures start to use this new technology and design receivers and servos for the increased voltage so regulators won't be needed.
Mark
I hope our radio manufactures start to use this new technology and design receivers and servos for the increased voltage so regulators won't be needed.
Mark
09-23-2003, 06:44 PM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
I decided for my 33% H9 Sukhoi to use the duralite setup as follows
2 - 3600 mah 4 cell 7.4 v pack, Redundant receiver batteries
2 - Regulators - 7.5 amp, 6.0 volt (for receiver batteries)
1 - 1900 mah 4 cell 7.4 volt Ignition battery
1 - Regulator - 7.5 amp, 5.1 volt (for ignition battery)*
Batteries are not where you want to cut corners to save a buck
2 - 3600 mah 4 cell 7.4 v pack, Redundant receiver batteries
2 - Regulators - 7.5 amp, 6.0 volt (for receiver batteries)
1 - 1900 mah 4 cell 7.4 volt Ignition battery
1 - Regulator - 7.5 amp, 5.1 volt (for ignition battery)*
Batteries are not where you want to cut corners to save a buck
09-23-2003, 07:40 PM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Gentlemen,
What i have observed is li-ion battery are offered by very good 'marketing' company like Duralite and Powerflight. Unfortutately for them, the payback on their investment must be short to make money. For that reason, they can not push 2 technology at the same time like li-ion and li-ploy.
Li-ion pack needs internal protection inside the pack to avoid hazardous issue when charging them.
but be very cautious of a cells maximum discharge rating.
Tipover here what i have found on FMA direct site
In order to utilize Kokam LiPo electric packs to their fullest potential, and to prevent the batteries from deep discharge conditions, we recommend the use of a special electronic speed control. New auto-cell detect ESC's are in development and/or in production from FMA Direct. The first in this new series is the FMA Direct SUPER 30 (pn: ASC30) The SUPER 30 is the perfect compliment for LiPo battery packs. Designed with auto-cell detect, the unit will automatically detect the number of cells in a LiPo, NiCd, or NiMH battery pack and set the correct motor cutoff accordingly. In addition, the latest software version enables the selection of a user-programmable, fixed cutoff that can be set at any level. This unit will prevent the undesirable condition of discharging LiPo batteries below 2.5V per cell. Be advised, this condition can prevent the cells from re-charging. Visit the Motor Controllers section of the store for more information.
https://www.fmadirect.com/site/fma.h...roducts&cat=28
In battery business, things are changing very fast and the new li-poly benefits of all bad and good li-ion and li-mh experiences. It means the latest li-poly are probably safer, cheaper and lighter to produce than li-ion. I am sure the li-poly will penetrate our hobby in a short term.
Good night guys!
Scou.
What i have observed is li-ion battery are offered by very good 'marketing' company like Duralite and Powerflight. Unfortutately for them, the payback on their investment must be short to make money. For that reason, they can not push 2 technology at the same time like li-ion and li-ploy.
Li-ion pack needs internal protection inside the pack to avoid hazardous issue when charging them.
but be very cautious of a cells maximum discharge rating.
Tipover here what i have found on FMA direct site
In order to utilize Kokam LiPo electric packs to their fullest potential, and to prevent the batteries from deep discharge conditions, we recommend the use of a special electronic speed control. New auto-cell detect ESC's are in development and/or in production from FMA Direct. The first in this new series is the FMA Direct SUPER 30 (pn: ASC30) The SUPER 30 is the perfect compliment for LiPo battery packs. Designed with auto-cell detect, the unit will automatically detect the number of cells in a LiPo, NiCd, or NiMH battery pack and set the correct motor cutoff accordingly. In addition, the latest software version enables the selection of a user-programmable, fixed cutoff that can be set at any level. This unit will prevent the undesirable condition of discharging LiPo batteries below 2.5V per cell. Be advised, this condition can prevent the cells from re-charging. Visit the Motor Controllers section of the store for more information.
https://www.fmadirect.com/site/fma.h...roducts&cat=28
In battery business, things are changing very fast and the new li-poly benefits of all bad and good li-ion and li-mh experiences. It means the latest li-poly are probably safer, cheaper and lighter to produce than li-ion. I am sure the li-poly will penetrate our hobby in a short term.
Good night guys!
Scou.
09-24-2003, 07:13 AM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Hello!
I have found a cheap 'gizmo' to detech when li-poly cells are under 2v:
1) Led indicator Lipmon:11$ http://www.smallrc.com/dwehtml/iemicro.cfm
2) The FMA voltage regulator has 2 fonctions: a) reduce 7V to 4.8V b) there are 3 leds on it
gree=good, yellow=warning, red=time to charge, 21$
https://www.fmadirect.com/site/fma.h...roducts&cat=28
The FMA regulator seems to be a good choice for me!!
See you
I have found a cheap 'gizmo' to detech when li-poly cells are under 2v:
1) Led indicator Lipmon:11$ http://www.smallrc.com/dwehtml/iemicro.cfm
2) The FMA voltage regulator has 2 fonctions: a) reduce 7V to 4.8V b) there are 3 leds on it
gree=good, yellow=warning, red=time to charge, 21$
https://www.fmadirect.com/site/fma.h...roducts&cat=28
The FMA regulator seems to be a good choice for me!!
See you
09-24-2003, 10:30 PM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Scoubidou
If you research further you will finfd that Li-poly batteries are much more fragile and at this time most of them are not recomending them for Gas planes due to vibration issues.
there is the same other issues as li-ion
I believe FMA even mentions it.(and has a pop up warning about fires etc)
Li-ion is not to be confused with the older Metal ones.
I have been using Li-ion batteries for about 8 years on a variety of devices with no problems.
The chargers are certainly No brainers.
They do add up in price and I have not seen any regulators designed to take the 8.4v of the Li-ion that are $19 or so.
I think the miracle switch etc are rated up to 7v.
Duralite has better pricing IMHO.
Having said that I like them!!!(the batteries)
All batteries will do something nasty if abused.
My Nimh pack caught on fire after a finger /thumb issue
If you research further you will finfd that Li-poly batteries are much more fragile and at this time most of them are not recomending them for Gas planes due to vibration issues.
there is the same other issues as li-ion
I believe FMA even mentions it.(and has a pop up warning about fires etc)
Li-ion is not to be confused with the older Metal ones.
I have been using Li-ion batteries for about 8 years on a variety of devices with no problems.
The chargers are certainly No brainers.
They do add up in price and I have not seen any regulators designed to take the 8.4v of the Li-ion that are $19 or so.
I think the miracle switch etc are rated up to 7v.
Duralite has better pricing IMHO.
Having said that I like them!!!(the batteries)
All batteries will do something nasty if abused.
My Nimh pack caught on fire after a finger /thumb issue
09-25-2003, 12:15 PM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Hello AndyT
I have learned that li-poly has different electrolit that li-ion. This new electrolit gel is less explosiv than li-ion and safer.
Have you seen any vibrations issues with LI-ion pack? I am reading some threads on li-poly users but they all use them on electric powered planes, not gas???
These li-poly pack give them 3 times more flying time for half weight then NIcad or Nimh. You will understand the big potential in that business
Maybe you are right with vibration issues? Let us know with more details by giving us some exemple please.
Scou
I have learned that li-poly has different electrolit that li-ion. This new electrolit gel is less explosiv than li-ion and safer.
Have you seen any vibrations issues with LI-ion pack? I am reading some threads on li-poly users but they all use them on electric powered planes, not gas???
These li-poly pack give them 3 times more flying time for half weight then NIcad or Nimh. You will understand the big potential in that business
Maybe you are right with vibration issues? Let us know with more details by giving us some exemple please.
Scou
09-25-2003, 01:38 PM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Here is what i got form FMA after i asked vibrations issues:
Dear Sir,
There is no problem with vibration or interference. The problem is finding
a voltage regulator that will handle the current draw from your servos. We
are developing a VR that will handle more then our current VR, which is
rated at 2 amps.
Sincerely,
Howard G. Matos
Technical Support
FMA, Inc.
5716A Industry Lane
Frederick, MD 21704
301-668-7615 x18
Please feel free to comment [sm=drowning.gif]
Scoubidou
Dear Sir,
There is no problem with vibration or interference. The problem is finding
a voltage regulator that will handle the current draw from your servos. We
are developing a VR that will handle more then our current VR, which is
rated at 2 amps.
Sincerely,
Howard G. Matos
Technical Support
FMA, Inc.
5716A Industry Lane
Frederick, MD 21704
301-668-7615 x18
Please feel free to comment [sm=drowning.gif]
Scoubidou
09-25-2003, 03:33 PM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
I havent any issues with the Li-ion and have not used the Poly.
Fma has a pop up warning about fires etc on their site every time I visit it.
Also they refer to Sport/Glow apps which is not Giant Scale style vibrations.
As I undestand it it is not the pack itself but the delicate connections to the pack which has people concerned.
2 amps thru the regulator is not enough for my models as far as regulators go.
I believe this was being discussed on the battery forum. I have also discussed this with people at Joe Nall. I was suprised at the number of fliers using Li-ion on their way expensive models.
The run time is truly great and if you use a Lithium charger its a no brainer....plug and forget. I think that is what I like the most.
Right now Im the only one at our site using them.
Maybe you should go and stick it on a G62 and see how it goes. Fmas prices are pretty good.
Fma has a pop up warning about fires etc on their site every time I visit it.
Also they refer to Sport/Glow apps which is not Giant Scale style vibrations.
As I undestand it it is not the pack itself but the delicate connections to the pack which has people concerned.
2 amps thru the regulator is not enough for my models as far as regulators go.
I believe this was being discussed on the battery forum. I have also discussed this with people at Joe Nall. I was suprised at the number of fliers using Li-ion on their way expensive models.
The run time is truly great and if you use a Lithium charger its a no brainer....plug and forget. I think that is what I like the most.
Right now Im the only one at our site using them.
Maybe you should go and stick it on a G62 and see how it goes. Fmas prices are pretty good.
09-25-2003, 07:45 PM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
I downloaded a Pdf file on the Kokam from FMAs site.
It has interesting possibilities now just need the courage to try them!!!
It has interesting possibilities now just need the courage to try them!!!
09-25-2003, 08:21 PM
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RE: Li-ion or Li-poly for Giant aircraft?
Well, maybe today, the li-ion cells are the way to go on Giant aircraft with many available battery pack, suppliers and all acesories like, regulators, charger, etc... The li-poly will replace them shortly as soon as new accessories will be available.
There are many pilot like kevinf2501 and AndyT using them now and i will be another one!!
I got my MAN today and in the last page, a modeller use 36 cell (3 set of 12x 1950 mamp li-poly cells) to power 1/4 scale plane (19 pound). He saved 2.25pound by replacing his NImh pack by the li-poly and he flies 3 times longer than nicad. Amazing!
I am gonna check if i can use li-ion regulator on li-poly cell...
Scou
There are many pilot like kevinf2501 and AndyT using them now and i will be another one!!
I got my MAN today and in the last page, a modeller use 36 cell (3 set of 12x 1950 mamp li-poly cells) to power 1/4 scale plane (19 pound). He saved 2.25pound by replacing his NImh pack by the li-poly and he flies 3 times longer than nicad. Amazing!
I am gonna check if i can use li-ion regulator on li-poly cell...
Scou
