Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
Mike,
Thanks again for the info on how to include pictures.
From what I've been able to figure out, and with the help of some friends on this forum (and elsewhere), I've heard this build is basically old school ( "robust") but fairly simple. I'll decide if that's really a true statement or not, once Iget into it and post the results to this thread - there's no doubt it's robust. Today Ireceived a super nice canopy from Craig at FIberglass Specialties that will be checked against the new foam turtledeck and existing foam hatch. I'm not going to build the fuse in the traditional way against the plans, but have built fixturing that will position the formers inverted at the correct spacing through the centerline that will also maintain the 8.50 degree included angle generated by wing roots - then I'll start locating the longitudinal spars and plywood side plates (for lack of a better term). These will all be spotted-in with epoxy - Ilike Loctite E20-HP Hysol for all structural components.
Instead of splicing the plywood side plates to make up the new 54"overall length from F-1 to F-7, Ihad a buddy mill-up a couple pieces of old growth Spruce to replace these pieces, complete with lightening slots from F-4 back to the tail. I'll post these pictures later. So what's coming up are pictures of the new foam turtledeck, fixturing, and wing tube drilling. It's starting to get fun now.
Thanks, Stick
Thanks again for the info on how to include pictures.
From what I've been able to figure out, and with the help of some friends on this forum (and elsewhere), I've heard this build is basically old school ( "robust") but fairly simple. I'll decide if that's really a true statement or not, once Iget into it and post the results to this thread - there's no doubt it's robust. Today Ireceived a super nice canopy from Craig at FIberglass Specialties that will be checked against the new foam turtledeck and existing foam hatch. I'm not going to build the fuse in the traditional way against the plans, but have built fixturing that will position the formers inverted at the correct spacing through the centerline that will also maintain the 8.50 degree included angle generated by wing roots - then I'll start locating the longitudinal spars and plywood side plates (for lack of a better term). These will all be spotted-in with epoxy - Ilike Loctite E20-HP Hysol for all structural components.
Instead of splicing the plywood side plates to make up the new 54"overall length from F-1 to F-7, Ihad a buddy mill-up a couple pieces of old growth Spruce to replace these pieces, complete with lightening slots from F-4 back to the tail. I'll post these pictures later. So what's coming up are pictures of the new foam turtledeck, fixturing, and wing tube drilling. It's starting to get fun now.
Thanks, Stick
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
Couple pics of the turtledeck. Since this was my first time with hot wire, the foam Iused for this "experiment"was from the local hardware - panels are 3/4"thick (as you can see by the horizontal seams), held the 9 panel stack together with Weldwood spray adhesive. Iwon't get into the details of the equipment or set up now...unless there's some interest......let me know.
Thanks,
Thanks,
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
I'm also interested in your build and would like to see some pictures. I'm new to GS and getting a lot of help on this forum - good bunch of guys here.
Thanks, SnR
Thanks, SnR
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
Pictures of completed motor mount - 2 degree RT added to firewall. Imentioned Loctite E20-HP Hysol for structural joints - it's the best, available from McMaster Carr.
Replaced all of the butt joints with tongue and groove. Made the construction much easier, and stronger. The 1/8"hole patterns on the 4 sides are for aluminum angle reinforecment on the inside of the box.
More later.
Replaced all of the butt joints with tongue and groove. Made the construction much easier, and stronger. The 1/8"hole patterns on the 4 sides are for aluminum angle reinforecment on the inside of the box.
More later.
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
How did you replace the butt joints with tongue and groove? Did you use the pieces as a pattern and laser cut new pieces? The result again is beautiful job, nice outcome.
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
Top, bottom and side plates are original. Ireplaced the 1/4" thick firewall with new material. Irelieved the ends of the 1/8"material and notched the 1/4" firewall so the pieces would overlap. This moved the firewall 1/4"aft - I'll adjust the lengthby adding spacers to the stand-offs supplied with theengine. F-1 and 2 are the new formers, printed fromscale acad sketches, transfered to the plywood and cut on bandsaw. Note the lower holes in F-2 and thegearplate support slots in F-1 below the epoxy joint - these were done on my mill. Turned out to be a nice rigid structure. SInce Iused original plywood for the basic box, the aluminum angle reinforcement is just a little structuralinsurance- I'll show that later.
Thanks!!
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
Some pics of the airframe and fixturing.
Iused an 8' length of 80/20 extruded rail, 1 1/2"aluminum angles with 5/16"carriage bolts and nuts to position the formers. This set-up made it very easy to align the formers perpendicular to the centerline, and 90 degrees (plumb)to the rail, and allowed simultaneous dry fit-up of the stringers on both sides. I only made some minor adjustments to the 1/4 x 1/4 notches in the formers in order to keep the sides perfectly flat (checked with straight edge). Decided to use medium CA on all of the joints - no kicker required. After the accessible sides of the joints were tacked Iun-clamped the framework from the rail and did the undersides. Construction was complete in just under an hour. Mahogany side plates get through holes machined tomorrow for the wing tube, then epoxied to the frame. Turtledeck (from previous post) now matches the airframe - Ithrew in the tail just to get some perspective.
Thanks.
Iused an 8' length of 80/20 extruded rail, 1 1/2"aluminum angles with 5/16"carriage bolts and nuts to position the formers. This set-up made it very easy to align the formers perpendicular to the centerline, and 90 degrees (plumb)to the rail, and allowed simultaneous dry fit-up of the stringers on both sides. I only made some minor adjustments to the 1/4 x 1/4 notches in the formers in order to keep the sides perfectly flat (checked with straight edge). Decided to use medium CA on all of the joints - no kicker required. After the accessible sides of the joints were tacked Iun-clamped the framework from the rail and did the undersides. Construction was complete in just under an hour. Mahogany side plates get through holes machined tomorrow for the wing tube, then epoxied to the frame. Turtledeck (from previous post) now matches the airframe - Ithrew in the tail just to get some perspective.
Thanks.
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
SticknRudder, I've been following your build and have to say that you're doing a great job. It sounds like your kit was pretty messed up right from the start but you've done some fantastic work to correct the issues.
I'm just about ready to start the build on this same kit, this will be my first build for anything larger than a 40 size plane so all of the pictures you've posted have been a huge help. I checked everything for the problems that you had and I'm glad to say that I don't have any of the same issues however I did find today that all of the lite ply fuse formers are pretty badly warped so I'm a little concerned about getting the fuse built square with warped formers. I also noticed that the engine box sides are to tall to fit through the hole in the F1 former and I didn't see any info in the very minimal manual about how to assemble and keep everything square on the engine box using butt joints on everything so I'm thinking your tongue and groove method may be in my future.
I'm just about ready to start the build on this same kit, this will be my first build for anything larger than a 40 size plane so all of the pictures you've posted have been a huge help. I checked everything for the problems that you had and I'm glad to say that I don't have any of the same issues however I did find today that all of the lite ply fuse formers are pretty badly warped so I'm a little concerned about getting the fuse built square with warped formers. I also noticed that the engine box sides are to tall to fit through the hole in the F1 former and I didn't see any info in the very minimal manual about how to assemble and keep everything square on the engine box using butt joints on everything so I'm thinking your tongue and groove method may be in my future.
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
rtn9105 - welcome aboard.
My kit went through many hands before Igot it, and Iditched some material - mostly sheeting - although Ihave to say that I'm probably using 75% of the original parts since most of it is still in good shape - some parts are missing. 1/4" firewall and main gear supports are new. The opening in F-1 should be 4 1/2"square, as is the firewall - top and bottom plates are 4 1/2" wide, side gusset plates are 4 1/4" so they go on the inside. Centerline (on mine)is 3 13/16"down from the top of F-1. Question:does your print show 1/8"sheeting on the top of F-1? - problem here is the entire hatch is removable so the cowl has to stop at F-1 by design (this is actually one of those drawing errors Imentioned previously). Iunderstand on the Ace kits, the forward 1 1/2"or so of the hatch is separated and attached to F-1 - so the sheeting is at least 1 5/8" wide across the top . This is how I'm building mine.
Back to the centerline - F-2 through 7 are 1 7/16" down from the top. Iused new 1/8" x 5 ply for all formers - no lite ply at all. Iwas a little more generous on the lightening holes than the drawing though. Haven't made a lot of progress since we got slapped with a little more snow here than usual - spending more time in the driveway than in the shop.
My advice - spend a couple more bucks and cut new formers - they all fit on 12" x 24". Alittle more info than necessary on this post (sorry, Iget carried away).
Thanks
My kit went through many hands before Igot it, and Iditched some material - mostly sheeting - although Ihave to say that I'm probably using 75% of the original parts since most of it is still in good shape - some parts are missing. 1/4" firewall and main gear supports are new. The opening in F-1 should be 4 1/2"square, as is the firewall - top and bottom plates are 4 1/2" wide, side gusset plates are 4 1/4" so they go on the inside. Centerline (on mine)is 3 13/16"down from the top of F-1. Question:does your print show 1/8"sheeting on the top of F-1? - problem here is the entire hatch is removable so the cowl has to stop at F-1 by design (this is actually one of those drawing errors Imentioned previously). Iunderstand on the Ace kits, the forward 1 1/2"or so of the hatch is separated and attached to F-1 - so the sheeting is at least 1 5/8" wide across the top . This is how I'm building mine.
Back to the centerline - F-2 through 7 are 1 7/16" down from the top. Iused new 1/8" x 5 ply for all formers - no lite ply at all. Iwas a little more generous on the lightening holes than the drawing though. Haven't made a lot of progress since we got slapped with a little more snow here than usual - spending more time in the driveway than in the shop.
My advice - spend a couple more bucks and cut new formers - they all fit on 12" x 24". Alittle more info than necessary on this post (sorry, Iget carried away).
Thanks
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
Actually thanks for all the info, as it turns out most all my parts are cut to the wrong sizes.
Firewall 4 x 4 3/16
F1 opening 4 x 4 1/8
engine box sides 4 3/8 x 9 15/16
engine box top & bottom 3 3/4 wide which would be the correct width if they were put inbetween the sides and if the sides weren't 1/4" to tall.
Yes my plans show the balsa sheeting over the F1 former and they show the front 2 3/8" of the hatch foam is attached to the F1
My plans are showing the centerline of F1 is 3 5/16" down and the rest are 1 5/16" down from the top.
I think your right about just cutting all new formers
Firewall 4 x 4 3/16
F1 opening 4 x 4 1/8
engine box sides 4 3/8 x 9 15/16
engine box top & bottom 3 3/4 wide which would be the correct width if they were put inbetween the sides and if the sides weren't 1/4" to tall.
Yes my plans show the balsa sheeting over the F1 former and they show the front 2 3/8" of the hatch foam is attached to the F1
My plans are showing the centerline of F1 is 3 5/16" down and the rest are 1 5/16" down from the top.
I think your right about just cutting all new formers
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
I've got a problem - it's been a month since I've worked on the airframe (due to bad weather)- been storing it in the furnace room to keep it at a more or less even temperature and humidity and found that it's developed a 1/4"twist over it's 54"length. In addition to that, it's developed about 3/16"sag from F-1 to F-3 (~20"). Ithink Icould have avoided most of this if the sides plates were epoxied to the spars immediately after Ihad all of the formers and spars set. Ihad it sitting on the firewall with the frame vertical - not like it was laying over anything causing it to warp.
Now, short of soaking the airframe in the hot tube and re-fixturing it to the rail and letting it dry out, does anyone have a solution or recommendation? The airframe can be very easily persuaded back to square and plumb with minimal effort since this problem involves only the 1/4"longitudinal spars at this point. I'm sure that attaching the side plates will eliminate the sag, but not so sure about the twist.
Please let me know what my options are.....or if this is more or less normal.
Thanks
Now, short of soaking the airframe in the hot tube and re-fixturing it to the rail and letting it dry out, does anyone have a solution or recommendation? The airframe can be very easily persuaded back to square and plumb with minimal effort since this problem involves only the 1/4"longitudinal spars at this point. I'm sure that attaching the side plates will eliminate the sag, but not so sure about the twist.
Please let me know what my options are.....or if this is more or less normal.
Thanks
#41
RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
ORIGINAL: SticknRudder
I've got a problem - it's been a month since I've worked on the airframe (due to bad weather) - been storing it in the furnace room to keep it at a more or less even temperature and humidity and found that it's developed a 1/4'' twist over it's 54'' length. In addition to that, it's developed about 3/16'' sag from F-1 to F-3 (~20''). I think I could have avoided most of this if the sides plates were epoxied to the spars immediately after I had all of the formers and spars set. I had it sitting on the firewall with the frame vertical - not like it was laying over anything causing it to warp.
Now, short of soaking the airframe in the hot tube and re-fixturing it to the rail and letting it dry out, does anyone have a solution or recommendation? The airframe can be very easily persuaded back to square and plumb with minimal effort since this problem involves only the 1/4'' longitudinal spars at this point. I'm sure that attaching the side plates will eliminate the sag, but not so sure about the twist.
Please let me know what my options are.....or if this is more or less normal.
Thanks
I've got a problem - it's been a month since I've worked on the airframe (due to bad weather) - been storing it in the furnace room to keep it at a more or less even temperature and humidity and found that it's developed a 1/4'' twist over it's 54'' length. In addition to that, it's developed about 3/16'' sag from F-1 to F-3 (~20''). I think I could have avoided most of this if the sides plates were epoxied to the spars immediately after I had all of the formers and spars set. I had it sitting on the firewall with the frame vertical - not like it was laying over anything causing it to warp.
Now, short of soaking the airframe in the hot tube and re-fixturing it to the rail and letting it dry out, does anyone have a solution or recommendation? The airframe can be very easily persuaded back to square and plumb with minimal effort since this problem involves only the 1/4'' longitudinal spars at this point. I'm sure that attaching the side plates will eliminate the sag, but not so sure about the twist.
Please let me know what my options are.....or if this is more or less normal.
Thanks
Bob
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
Sensei,
it makes sense to diagonally brace the airframe in the manner you've suggested. However Isee 2 ways to do this 1) top to bottom, to opposite corners between the formers, or 2)simple zig-zag (for lack of a better term)across the top surface and repeat for the bottom surface?Please let me know your preference.
Thanks for the quick response.
it makes sense to diagonally brace the airframe in the manner you've suggested. However Isee 2 ways to do this 1) top to bottom, to opposite corners between the formers, or 2)simple zig-zag (for lack of a better term)across the top surface and repeat for the bottom surface?Please let me know your preference.
Thanks for the quick response.
#43
RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
ORIGINAL: SticknRudder
Sensei,
it makes sense to diagonally brace the airframe in the manner you've suggested. However I see 2 ways to do this 1) top to bottom, to opposite corners between the formers, or 2) simple zig-zag (for lack of a better term) across the top surface and repeat for the bottom surface? Please let me know your preference.
Thanks for the quick response.
Sensei,
it makes sense to diagonally brace the airframe in the manner you've suggested. However I see 2 ways to do this 1) top to bottom, to opposite corners between the formers, or 2) simple zig-zag (for lack of a better term) across the top surface and repeat for the bottom surface? Please let me know your preference.
Thanks for the quick response.
Bob
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
Those following this thread, Iwas able to eliminate the twist in the airframe using Sensei's diagonal bracing recommendation.Iinstalled the wing tube through the fuse and supported it with a pair of parallels (one on each side), and supported the tail on another parallel just ahead of the last former. Iused a 5 lb weight at F-2 and another 5 lb'er on the tail wheel plate - adjusted perpendicularity at F-8 and epoxied the basswood diagonals. Icouldn't put the airframe assembly back in the rail/fixture due to the additional stringers along the bottom, so the above was accomplished on a large glass table with the airframe inverted.
The 3 sets of diagonals shown along with the tail wheel plate were sufficient to remove the twist after the weight was removed. Obviously the stab will be epoxied to the opposite side. The airframe is now extremely rigid, and perfectly flat again across the top. I strongly recommend to all who are building this airframe design, to use diagonals. The frame as shown is 1.92 lbs (875 grams).
Sensei, the name fits.Thanks for the advice.
The 3 sets of diagonals shown along with the tail wheel plate were sufficient to remove the twist after the weight was removed. Obviously the stab will be epoxied to the opposite side. The airframe is now extremely rigid, and perfectly flat again across the top. I strongly recommend to all who are building this airframe design, to use diagonals. The frame as shown is 1.92 lbs (875 grams).
Sensei, the name fits.Thanks for the advice.
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
Thanks for the compliments guy, Iappreciate it. Iexpect to get some pictures of the new hatch and the wing drill posted this weekend.
PP is the GLE-55 - any recommendations on fuel tank brand, size, position in the airframe, and accessories (now that Ihave the wing tube over the CG). Iwas considering a 32oz tank between the gusset supports behind the firewall but that may throw the CGtoo far forward. Do Ineed to carry that much gas?
Thanks
PP is the GLE-55 - any recommendations on fuel tank brand, size, position in the airframe, and accessories (now that Ihave the wing tube over the CG). Iwas considering a 32oz tank between the gusset supports behind the firewall but that may throw the CGtoo far forward. Do Ineed to carry that much gas?
Thanks
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RE: Ace Extra 230 33% Fiberglass
Nothing real special here - hot wired replacement hatch from 2"thick (stacked)Owens Corning pink XPS - Ilike this material a little better than the EPS, obviously much finer grain, although the results was similar. Didn't notice the notches in the foam until after the cut was made, and the ink on the panel fused into the seam. I'll plan better next time.
Idecided to add 2" of balsa build-up to F-1 to butt against the hatch - might be a better bulkhead for some kind of latch mechanism instead of the "wire through the cowl" idea.
The wing tube core drill (Ithink this qualifies as a "gun drill") is about complete - I'll post those pictures in a couple days.
Thanks
Idecided to add 2" of balsa build-up to F-1 to butt against the hatch - might be a better bulkhead for some kind of latch mechanism instead of the "wire through the cowl" idea.
The wing tube core drill (Ithink this qualifies as a "gun drill") is about complete - I'll post those pictures in a couple days.
Thanks