Leardriver

My Feedback: (12)

Well my brand new 2.6 Comp- Arf was destroyed on it's 5th flight yesterday when the engine flamed out immediately after take-off. The plane was in a climbing turn to the downwind leg with about 15-20 wind at the tail when it quite and basically fell out of the sky. With the tail wind component the only thing I was able to do was watch because it simply stopped flying. The destroyed parts are fuse, cowl, canopy/canopy frame, and landing gear. The wings are nearly perfect (minor damage to the bottom skin on one wing...easily repairable), the stabs and elevators are perfect, as is the rudder. I priced out the parts to repair the plane but have decided not to go that route mainly because of the wait to get them.

Now for the questions.......why? The DA100 was running flawlessly last weekend when I test flew it. The only difference was the addition of some standard issue baffling that I installed this week. Nothing fancy, just something to direct the air over the cylinders for additional cooling.....exactly the same as my buddy's 2.6. My first flight yesterday ended with a precautionary landing because the motor was "dying than catching" like it was starving for fuel. On the ground we ran it up a bunch, tached it (600rpm with a MSC 26x10 for break in) and let it sit there idling to see if it would load up........................nada! It ran and carborated perfectly. Not freakin burble! So maybe it was cold if perhaps I didn't get the chock butterfly all the off........so here goes. It flamed 40ft into the flight at a critical phase. I am at a loss. Could the baffle have created a vacuum effect in the cowl and starved the engine for air? Maybe the the needles were too lean.....they were untouched from DA. All I know is that it ran perfectly on the ground. Suggestions?

Now the "what now". Of course I am now left without an airplane for the season and have to decide what to replace it with. I am thinking of going 40% as I have an engine coming for my 40% project that truthfully won't fly until fall at the earliest. Maybe a comp-Arf 3.0 Extra? They do have special on an all white version. Or maybe stay with the 2.6? Perhaps the JTEC planes? I don't freakin know. I spose I have to look at what I can get back in the quickly and fairly economically. Anyone got a something they wanna sell cheap[8D]? Oh boy, I think I might have just opened a can of worms with that question...lol!

So I have some 2.6 House Scheme wings, stabs/elevator, and rudder avail for sale.......email me if your interest! lol! This is gonna be tough to figure out.

Leardriver

Shortman

My Feedback: (21)

My friend had the exact same problem, but he was flying the 3.0M Composite ARF Flag Scheme with a brand new DA 150 and turning about 40ft like you did towards the runway the motor quit on him, he was able to bring it down okay with a minor landing gear leg damage.

He knew right away he should have broken the motor in before he started flying it 3D. So I don't know[]

mglavin

My Feedback: (31)

One of the more common problems related to flame out is heat. However unless the engine was laboring prior to the flame out its unlikely this was your problem.

I would check the fuel system and more specifically the carburetor. Under the cover plate of the carb plate is a screen which often becomes blocked and exhibits problems as you note.

Leardriver

My Feedback: (12)

I have not even unbolted the engine from the remains of the firewall yet, but I will check later if I get a chance. As for 3D....that was not an issue as I was just simply climbing out.

Leardriver

GoeKeli

My Feedback: (18)

Leardriver , I am so sorry to hear about your plane. I lost a plane yesterday too. I hope you get something soon and get in the air. That is really really a bummer.!~(

Joe

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

Ouch leardriver,
I was hovering my 40% composite at about 15 ft and 1 elevator linkage failed. The plane nosed over, stupid me gave full up elevator and more throttle, it just went in faster :^) Point is, I thought it was totalled but after looking at it the fuse was rebuildable. It was broke clear in half, the wing tube was bent at a 45 etc etc. Hope you can salvage it.

Jon

Before




After

Leardriver

My Feedback: (12)

Hi guys,

Thanks for the support. Joe I honestly wish this thing was rebuildable but the fuse is basically disintegrated from the middle of the servo tray to the front of the landing gear plate...........just little tiny pieces. I would need a new fuse, cowl, canopy, canopy frame, and a set of gear. I spoke with my comp-arf rep about it and the fact is the parts are in stock in the Thialand wharehouse. Probably a minimum of 6 weeks to get them here and in the $900 range. I honestly do not think that it is worth it to try to rebuild this particular 2.6.

As for a fuel blockage, I have spent a considerable amount of time pondering this and while I spose anything is possible I tend to think that is not the issue (I have not actually looked at the engine yet) only because it was dead nuts perfect on the ground! I honestly would not have even considered flying it if I had so much as a little tiny hiccup! Maybe too lean as has beed suggested. We'll see what DA has to say.

Leardriver

ezflyr

My Feedback: (32)

Sorry for your loss, but.........

Planes do not "fall out of the sky" when their engines quit, and the fact that the airplane was turning downwind is mostly irrelevant. Quite simply you did not maintain sufficient flying airspeed by lowering the nose following the engine stoppage. The fact that the wind was "at the tail" (in spite of the downwind turn) simply meant that the plane was moving faster over the ground. Sure, engine failures can be tough right after takeoff, and at low altitude, but a controlled crash is always preferable to a stall/mush/spin which is apparently what happened in your case.

The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:

The pilot's failure to maintain sufficient airspeed resulting in a stall, and subsequent impact with terrain.

Contributing Factors:

Engine failure after takeoff, low altitude

John

Geistware

My Feedback: (16)

ezflyr, I was thinking the same thing but figured you guys with the bigger planes know better than me. I too had a flame out at take off, I too was about 30-40 feet up, I nosed it over and turned back to the runway. Even though I had to give it hard left rudder to finally get it pointed over the runway, but it came in. If you keep your airspeed up by keeping the nose down, it is flyable.

jonkoppisch,
YOU ARE THE MAN. That is awesome work!
I would have found a dumpster and put it in there.

jonkoppisch

My Feedback: (162)

Thanks!! I seriously considered the dumpster, lol. It flies great now though so....

Leardriver

My Feedback: (12)

Well normally I would probably just let this post go but considering the FACT that you were NOT there and you have chosen to throw BASIC aerodynamic principles in my face..... that are WRONG..... I am going to reply in full.

First my credentials.......CFI, CFII, MEI, ATP (multi-Eng), LR-JET type rating, and current PIC 135, as well Flight Safety Pro Card holder (basically means you have attended a professional to training program a whole bunch of times!). I have taught many ground school courses and am the company instructor concerning our Lear jet program. The point here is that I KNOW aerodynamic principles. And yes I know that there are even far more qualified people here on these boards than I am with more credentials. I speak from an area of expertise and experience with the follow. Also, my apologies to anyone here that feels I am "throwing around" ratings or boasting......this post has basically rubbed me the wrong way[>:]!

It is extremely smug of you to sit at your computer and simply deduce that this accident was pilot error. If it was... I AM man enough to fess up to it. If I made an error it was attempting another flight, although all of us were in agreement that everything was perfectly in order and that the flight would proceed as expected.

Now let's take a look at your statements above shall we?

"the fact that the airplane was turning downwind is mostly irrelevant."

I think you need to look up the term "TRUE AIRSPEED". It is NOT GROUND SPEED. Does ground speed have anything to do with lift....or the air going over the wings? Or is it TRUE airspeed? Think hard. Ok...to refresh your memory True Airspeed is the speed the airplane (or wing) is moving in relation to the air. That is what matters here. How fast the plane moves over the ground "downwind" means absolutely NOTHING as far as a stall is concerned. This is Private Pilot 101 stuff! (I am sure there plenty of guys here that go into this in much further detail and that is not what I am looking to do here)

My plane was at a fairly high AOA when the engine quite and YES I DID TRY TO LOWER THE NOSE TO PREVENT A STALL, IT DID NOT SPIN, IT SIMPLE DID NOT HAVE ENOUGH FLYING SPEED TO CREATE THE LIFT NEEDED FOR CONTROL AUTHORITY. There was moderate control but basically rudder only. Ailerons and elevator were largely ineffective. Why? Because there was insufficient airflow over the flight controls! Why? Because the 20kt tailwind component robbed nearly all of the "true airspeed" required to create lift and have effective control.

Your a "bonanza driver" (are by chance a Doctor? It would explain a few things.) and should know some very BASIC wind shear principles. What happens when you are landing and your 15kt headwind drops to 5kts? You just lost 10kts of lift didn't you? Why? Because the air moving over the wings is now moving 10kts slower. That is it.

So now that we are a little bit refreshed on BASIC aerodynamics lets look at what happened the other day to my plane. The engine quit at about a 30 deg AOA (angle of attack) in a turn to downwind. Without thrust to maintain forward momentum (to counteract the tailwind component) the air moving over the leading edge of the wing was sufficiently reduced to the point where flight simply could not be sustained. At approx 40ft alt and a 27-28lb airframe (with 32oz of fuel) recovery was impossible. Chip, Jason, or Quique could not have saved this particular airplane. It is a case of avail altitude and airspeed and there was not enough of either to make the plane fly despite ALL attempts. The plane impacted the ground fairly level at about a 25 deg angle.

So you are gonna sit there and say that the wind had nothing to do with this crash?? I wish I knew the guy that was gonna do your next BFR cause he is gonna have his hands full. If you don't understand this basic principle I would never put my signature in your logbook. I wonder what your NTSB report would read? It might start out something like "The pilot failed to take into account the wind.........."

Again, my apologies to everyone here who had to tolerate my little tirade here. Those of you who know me realize I don't throw qualifications in guys faces on a regular basis and again I am sorry for that. But this really got my Fur Flying!

Leardriver

Jleyland

My Feedback: (1)

"The engine quit at about a 30 deg AOA (angle of attack) in a turn to downwind. Without thrust to maintain forward momentum (to counteract the tailwind component) the air moving over the"

Hi Leardriver,
Sorry to hear about your loss. - You were flying at a 30 degree AOA when this happened? Or is that a mistype?
-jon

Shortman

My Feedback: (21)

A plane won't continue to fly when your in a harrier.

Jleyland

My Feedback: (1)

"Your a "bonanza driver" (are by chance a Doctor? It would explain a few things.)"

RC pilots say the same thing about full scale pilots. "You're not a full scale pilot by any chance are you?"

Dan767

My Feedback: (19)

As far as I remember, airspeed isn't the only qualifier for stalling. Seems to me that AOA has a lot to do with it. Please don't start the downwind turn argument again. Maybe he is a doctor, or a lawyer. Maybe he just worked his butt off and got the airplane of his dreams.

v-snap

My Feedback: (18)

LearDriver,
GOOD ANSWER

coony2787

My Feedback: (33)

Well, i 'am sorry for your loss , however i'am sorry to tell you this but 90% of crashes are pilot error !!! I found this out the hard way myself! If you was flying the day before and the motor was acting up it was trying to tell you something! I hate to say this but our airplanes talk to us in weird ways. Your's was telling you that it had a problem and you pretty much ignored it and flew it again. Just cause an engine will run perfect on the ground doesn"t mean it was fixed and ready for flight. As for the DA engine it was not it's fault either, you ignored the previous flight of it telling you i'am having a running problem.

So here is my questions to you !!!!


Did you pull the fuel tank after the trouble and check to make sure the clunk lines was still intact?
Did you check your fueling tank for water ?
Did you check your fuel filter that you have in the plane? Do you have an inline fuel filter ?
Or did you just put some baffles in the cowl and go try it again and now you are mad because your plane is crashed ?

Now don't take this the wrong way but from what you have said in your previous post , the crash was your fault , that is what these other guys mean by pilot error , You did everything you could to try to keep the plane in the after you took off but it was too late you already over looked the maintenance in your airplane and it dead sticked and now you have no plane!!!!

I don't mean to be so harsh but i have allot of stupid crashes under my belt also. And the main and basically only reason i do is because of pilot error where i ignored a problem that the plane was telling it was having.

Don't be upset at the guys above or me but the plane crashed because you did not address the problem of the previous flight.

Therefore in my opinion and i have no credentials other than 15 years in this hobby your crash was pilot error.

sorry ,

Chad

Furyflyer2

My Feedback: (117)

Yes it will because of , thrust and prop wash.

Leardriver

My Feedback: (12)

Well Chad...the answer to your questions is yes to all but the water in the fuel. And if that was the problem than it would have also shown up on the ground during our 7-10 minutes of running the engine.......which performed flawlessly. The airplane was landed the first time and gone over all the stuff that you just mentioned. Precautions were taken. And to boot the problem was non-existent from anything we could tell when the 2nd flight of the day was attempted. Do you really think I would have attempted a second flight if everything did not appear to be normal? You think I have such disregard for my $4000 investment???? Do you?? The answer is NO!

So just to be clear.....................THERE WAS NO MAINTENANCE NEGLECT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I was not alone when this happened and as soon the people that were there get back I am sure they will jump in here and try and explain it to you. And when the %&$% did I say I was angry about losing the plane? I am very disappoint, and still not sure why the engine quit, but that is part of the hobby. I have not implied that i am pissed off about the situation, nor did I ask some %$^% hotshot his opinion on how I "could have saved my plane". That is simply rubbing my nose in the fact that my $1300 airplane crashed on the 5th flight...thank you very much and I will be sure to do the same when one of you guys destroys yours.

I am soooooo sorry I posted this thread to try to answer the motor questions. There are obvious things I checked and it does not appear to be any of them. When you have airspeed and altitude it is pretty easy to safely land an airplane, when you have neither it doesn't happen. That is it. Perhaps RCADMIN can comment here cause he was standing right next to me when it happened.

As for me blasting back at some of these "fellow modelers", well they seem to really like to throw misfortune in others face. As I said before....WHICH YOU HAVE OBVIOUSLY DISREGARDED....if I messed up I will be the first to admit it. If I don't understand why I will go looking for answers which is what this thread was supposed to be for. MY MISTAKE. Seems like all you NTSB reporters out there seem to have this case all figured out here.....I mean you were all there to gather the facts right? You couldn't possibly take the pilots word for it! After all he couldn't fess up to anything. The $#%&%# thing crashed! No S$#%. I am all to aware of that fact and why it crashed......what I am not sure of is why the fan stopped turning because we did everything we could think of and it was running perfectly on the ground and that included full power run ups. Well Chad if that is neglect than I guess you got me.

Yes I know things change in the air which is why I was immediately attempting to climb "just in case" it flamed. Well it did it before I had a chance to get any real altitude or maintain significant airspeed. Game over.

As far as stupid crashes go...yes we have all been there. But this was not one of them as it was my pride and joy and I was actually being rather cautious with it. But once again an online "expert" has spoken. Again, thanks to all those who have been oh so constructive regarding the thread.

To those who have actually addresses my questions (some privately) an honest thank you and I welcome your input anytime (MGlavin,ect).

Leardriver

Shortman

My Feedback: (21)

Err, I'm talking about how he said his motor died when his plane was at a 30 degree AOA. The plane can't fly in the harrier any longer with no thrust or prop wash, please read the entire thread first.

Leardriver

My Feedback: (12)

Uh Shortman......it wasn't in a harrier. It was a normal take-off followed immediately by a climbing turn for altitude. Where hell did you get harrier out of this? Did you read what was going on? What you are saying has zero relevance here...none. Harrier? Are you for real? With an airplane that has a suspect engine? Maybe with your plane, but not mine. Please...if it ain't relative to my question just don't post it.

Leardriver

MHall

My Feedback: (7)

I am not really familiar with the DA line of power plants but do they run a pump for fuel supply??? I remember tuning 2 stroke glow engines and when you got it tuned on the ground you would point the nose straight up at full power and check for a lean out. I wonder if your turn was just steep enough to starve the engine of fuel? Also the G-force of the take off would not be there while the engine ran sitting still during testing, also leading to a lean condition during climb out.[&o]
Just a thought.
Sorry to hear about your loss.[8D]

mu2driver

My Feedback: (15)

Well Lear man that just sucks the big one, Im sorry to see such a nice plane destroyed like this. As far as all of you experts talking smack on the guy you should be ashamed of your self, this hobby is suposed to be fun and we are soposed to help our brothers out in a time of need. You guys that make cheap shots at the guy have no Tact or Class. You guys that are NTSB wanabies are just LAME, yep LAME! You werent there so how could you possibly get all the facts on this crash? You cant so all your smut comments are with out merit! Period!
This one is going to be a hard one to figure out, the only thing that comes to mind is the clunk line in the tank might have fell off. The reason I suggest that is because I lost my DP Extra right after takeoff in a nose high attitude climbing out, it ran just fine on the ground but as soon as the AOA went up the engine died. Worth a shot.

Good luck

Darcy

Velox Pilot

Hello,

Dude that really sucks. I had a 3W lost prior to getting my 35% Velox a year plus ago. I would have tried to fix it no matte what. Anyway, I have had flameouts and its usually a lean issue if all is well with the rest of the motor. Good luck with your future project. Im finishing up a 35% Extra 300 mid wing from Aerotech. Its going to be bad.

Later

Ted

Leardriver

My Feedback: (12)

Thank you for the support Darcy and Ted. The clunk is still attached to in the tank....which exploded on impact I might ad. I am beginning to think a lean setting which I am gonna discuss with DA tomorrow. The needles were untouched from DA and ran really well last weekend.

The only other change was the addition the cooling baffles that I added, but that should have no bearing on the needles....right? Maybe they set up a disturbance over the carb? I did have a 1" square cut in the cowl just aft of the carb.

Leardriver