Maudib

My Feedback: (51)

I am not defending EF. My post had nothing to do with EF other than stating the same manufacturer that screwed over EF (then perhaps KMP) is now doing business direct in partnership with those connected with Cheetah RC. I have had it confirmed enough to believe personally it's true.

I didn't Hijack the thread... the original post asked SPECIFICALLY if this might be the same plane EF is selling. He also asked if anyone knew anything about the company. I shared what I knew and what I heard.

I'm no more experienced than the next guy... most of what I have learned came from RCU and I simply share it back. I'm no TOC pilot and have never professed to be anything but an RC nut. Plain and simple.

But since you asked... My experience with EF and their Yaks?

Well I flew and reviewed here on RCU the 68"... best flying glow plane of dozens I have built and flown. Top notch quality and hardware.

Immediately called Chris and told him I wanted the 87"...

I have the EF Edge and had the Mini3D... simply excellent construction and performance.

My 87" Yak will be here tomorrow (or at least that's what FedEx just said) and as soon as the 100cc Yak was rumored I got on the list for it.

Look... I have NO problem with free enterprise... in fact that's what makes me want to support Extreme Flight in these threads... it's the attention to detail, the consistent quality of construction, the excellent customer service and the hand's on attention he gives to customers.

I met him in person at the Toledo show last year. I watched as he and his wife worked his modest booth and greeted everyone kindly and gladly gave them as much time as they wished to talk turkey. The guy came across as a gentleman with a high level of business ethics.

Most people would scream bloody murder if they were taken advantage of... you are probably no different.

I'm simply sharing what I know about the situation BECAUSE people may see some indication that they MAY get the short end of the stick when it comes to this "new" manufacturer.

Why does it bitter some people so when they see people so moved by excellence that they want to support it and share it? Do I want to see EF succeed? you bet... I want MORE of these great planes brought to market.

Just cut the rhetoric and show me how my confidence in EF is misdirected. Otherwise, please permit me to share my opinions and experiences with the guy who asked for it. I welcome you to do the same. I don't have a bone to pick with you VSnap... but don't call me out...

Chipwill... if you're still reading... I'd like to invite you to my shop to see firsthand the Extreme Flight 87" Yak... I live just 15 minutes East of Columbus, 2 minutes from St. Rt. 70 on St. Rt. 37. Easy to get to. Feel free to PM or e-mail me for my number & directions. It should be here tomorrow or Thursday at the latest.

There is a possibility that there are a VERY few available on the boat due to dock in a week or so...

That goes for any Central Ohio fellas, (or good lookin' gals).

v-snap

My Feedback: (18)

That's not it Maudib, I for one want to see him succeed. I would love to do it myself, but you hit it when you said free enterprise. It is like buying 2nds at the store. Some will work just as good as the origonal, some won't but you don't go constantly harping one. My mistake I forgot the origonal reference to EF so I guess I got caught up in the harping also.

KMPs were sold as 2nds right? It was a lower price then Chris would have asked extras or not. The TOC1 now is in line with Chris's and may not be a good deal due to the extras, time will tell..

CALL ME OUT dang thats pre-high isn't it? I don't have a bone with you at all. I follow alot of threads and read what you say, and find somethings informative.

Well enough is enough, just tired of the EF refrences all the time, lets get to building..

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

If you are going to throw rumors and conspiracies around, why should it bother you that quite a few of us think the EF supporters here on RCU are engaging in smear campaigns against any and all potential competitors?

Unless you know something to be the absolute undeniable FACT, throwing around inuendoes time and time again only make us suspect of your hidden agenda.

I have never once doubted Chris' story - neither do I care. Foreign business ventures of any kind is a risky one. I rather think his time spent working as a buyer for Bubba Spivey of Lanier RC ought to have prepped him for that. Regardless, I'm sure the quality of his ware will speak for itself, one way or another. And I wish him the best in his attempt to bring quality ARFs to his customers. The same goes for ANY manufacturer or importer. I only wish you EF proponents will afford non-EF products the same consideration - instead of all this indescriminate accusations.

Maudib

My Feedback: (51)

I'm all for getting to building... Our season'll be here before you know it... and my building time is more scarce this year.

Take care and many happy flight on whatever we fly.

cbk07

My Feedback: (64)

I personally would like to thank Maudib. I had been following Garret Morrisons posts on Flying Cirkus and from what Garret had written had believed these were impressive airplanes. Enough so, that I contacted the importer Matt to let him know I would like to purchase one of his 40% Yaks as soon as they hit the docks. I even put my 3.0 Comp Arf Extra up for sale to fund it. It looks as though Maudib has just saved me over $1800. I can tell you for one that I would be more than a little pissed to spend that kind of money on a piece of garbage. It just shows how good advertising and a reputable (possibly dishonest) spokesperson can deceive. I have never seen the Kondor Yaks, but have read enough to believe they are seconds at best. With Maudib's knowledge that this is the same substandard company producing the TOC planes, I have a hard time believing that Garret does not know this also. I do see what Bryant330 and others are talking about on a regular basis and while it does get old at times, I find myself able to weed through it and still get valuable information. It looks as though this time, reading through the BS paid off. Assuming these are the same quality as the other rejects, I am gussing TOC aircraft won't be around long. Maybe a quality a quality company will copy their 40% Yak and I will get one after all. If not, I guess it's back to the building board! cbk

Maudib

My Feedback: (51)

Really it's not that... As I said before there are plenty of other manufacturers out there... Chip Hyde, BME, Aeroworks, Somenzini, Wild Hare, the list goes on...

Don't have a beef with them and I don't have a beef with TOC1... it's the shady manufacturer who is now on their third "partner".

I truly hope they bring the greatest plans to market... if so I'll be in line like so many others are for an EF Yak... but in the meantime this IS fact.

The manufacturer that stiffed EF, later stiffed KMP and now is partners with people associated with Cheetah RC. Why didn't they just bring them in under Cheetah RC?

They showed awesome prototypes and delivered shabby, 2nd rate production models.

There is nothing conjecture about that.

The only real conjecture is to surmise what might happen with this new partnership, who will benefit, who will lose, and what if any recourse will anyone have if they can't even find out who to pursue.

I don't see a phone number or physical address on either Cheetah RC's site or TOC1's site... even the domain names are registered anonymously...

If you want to buy their planes... go for it...

Bryant330L

My Feedback: (126)

I think that 40% yak looks awesome. I don't think I would cancel an order due to internet heresay. However, that is a ton of money and I don't blame you for not wanting to be the first to try it out. Maybe wait it out and let a couple of other people buy it and give their opinions. I bet those planes will be just fine. I really don't think Garrett would want his name associated with junky products.

cbk07

My Feedback: (64)

I hear what you are saying, just don't feel like being a guiney (sp?) pig without seeing a production model first. I had the first or second production DP 40% Edge 540 in the country and the quality was awesome even though all I ever read is negative stuff about Dave Patrick. I personally feel his quality is top notch. I currently own a 3.0 Comp Arf Extra, a 40% Carden Edge, a H9 Ultimate, a couple EF planes as well as several other ARFs and can say that while all have their strong points and weak points I am extremely happy with all of them. It sounds like the manufacturer of the TOC1 planes is also capable of building top notch prototypes and in Garrett's defense, this is probably what he is seeing and flying. IF for some reason it turns out that their production models turn out as nice, I will be the first in line to buy one. It just sounds that from what Maudib is saying about this company that it may be worth my while to wait it out. Hopefully he is wrong. I hope we are able to find out sooner than later. cbk

Maudib

My Feedback: (51)

I hope I'm wrong too... we can all use some more great designs!

screwed over

ParticleMan


There is a reference on flyingcirkus to the suspicious origin of these planes design

extratorker

My Feedback: (8)

I'm completley confused as to how assumptions can be made concerning the design and possible copying of an aircraft when there are not even any on the market yet. Did the original EF Yak have foam included in the fuse design? I've seen pics of the interior of the toc 30% yak and see none.

screwed over

Maudib

"The manufacturer that stiffed EF, later stiffed KMP "

I think KMP got a deal and it in fact was KMP stiffing the modeler.
I will add in there defense it seems they have washed there hands of that particular product.

chipwill

My Feedback: (12)

Hey great thread.

I have a purchase history with EF with a 68" Yak and for some time, have noted there are die hard fans of the plane. I believe if you have flown one, you know. There are also people who dont like the fact of the die hard fanbase. If you surf the EF Yak thread in the 3d section, you will see random attacks at proud Yak owners. No problem with that, this is the faceless internet, and on internet forums, very normal behavior. I purchased one on the basis of Maudib's review here at RCU. The review was spot on and the plane performed exactly as said. Someone mentioned Foam numerous times. I have had no problems with foam on my 68" Yak. It is very fragile feeling. I dont buy planes to crash them, so durability isn't a concern. As long as it can stand up to the inflight abuse I can toss at it without falling apart, then its my job to bring it down safely. Most of the time this is uneventful, but always in the mind is, what if I crash? That will happen sooner or later, with about a 95 percent probability of dumb thumbs being the culprit. The other percentage might be a mechanical failure or mid air. When my Yak lay in pieces, I will shrug it off, and then figure out how to replace it.

I heard rumors about KMP and the rejects planes that didnt meet Chris's standards. I realize that Aeroworks is loosing business or so it would seem, because of lower standards( based on internet complints so I could be wrong ). I dont know the full story but I understand what could have happened. When I saw these advertisements for other Yak 54s' then I noticed some similarities in the design/construction, I began to wonder.


So I asked a question and got a ton of varying ideas, thoughts, and interesting information.

I made up my mind who my $$ are going to. Is it absolutely correct? For me, yes. Might not be the same logic as someone else. I hope TOC1 proves to be a great place to buy planes. The more choices the better we all are for it.

On RCU people are passionate about their planes. Sometimes they are angry when things are less than perfect. Do a search of all the negative Aeroworks threads out there. I have bought 3 planes from AW last year. Most of the purchases were exactly as I had plannned and I felt like I got my moneys worth. All but one was perfect, and corrections were made and I am content. Would I buy from them again? Maybe. Issues need to be addressed for my own peronal experiences. Will I ever buy something from TOC? I really hope so, but I have got to be plain and honest that I have some ethical questions about their Yak. I am certain they will either be sucessful or not, the detirmining factor is the consumer, who deserves the right information, to make decisions that have economic consequences.

With that said, EF has been great to me and I hope that TOC1 and whomever else will be great to their customers. Then it's win win for everyone. If there is really some less than ethical behavior out there, I hope people get the chance to know about it, and then support who they believe in. If we turn blind eye and never ask questions, then the larger issue of the future of the USA is to be questioned. Strange departure from the spirit of this thread, but relevant I think. I wish more people had more info on everything we buy. I like buying a plane for 300$ or $700, vs. 1900, or 2500 if it were made here in the USA. I also understand that there is a economic loss to jobs overseas. Pretty soon those prices will go up as the skilled labor demands more of the pie from the business owners. The point of this dribble is I have no clue where these planes are being built, and I can only hope that fair, ethical business is going on.


Maudib, I will take you up on that offer. I have seen one of the planes you owned at Westerville this summer and it was beautiful. The AW Edge. I will send you a pm.

Thanks for sharing.

Chip

screwed over

Pretty much says it all.

Maudib

My Feedback: (51)

It's not about the planes anymore... noone even cares. EF has theirs out now, they rock and doesn't matter if these are the original designs (which they are).

It's now a matter of whether these particular planes will show up with the quality of the prototypes... and whether the manufacturer will take of their new partners or leave them holding the bag. If they hold true to their track record, it will be only a matter of time before we all know about it.

Don't give it another thought... just buy one and start a build thread. But you'll have to e-mail an order to Mr. Smith. Then hope Mr. Jones e-mails you a confirmation.

To answer your question... there were a LOT of differences between the first manufacturer's rendition of EF's Yak specifications and the current manufacturer. Each manufacturer selects differing techniques to build the design... a prototype is then sent for testing... tweaks made, etc...

There is NO correlation between the building methods of the rejects vs. the new builds.

The problem is that the manufacturer was hired to develop and construct X amount of Yaks that matched the production samples... they didn't... thet were not even close. So they did the old "switcharoo". And instead of taking it and dumping third rate models on his customers, he walked away from his money. To make matters worse they then approach KMP with the rejects which KMP accepted for resale... not just the Yaks but EF's Edges and Extras too...

In the mean time the manufacturer begins production using the same designs as was developed with Chris...

Not sure what happened with KMP... but I suspect SOMEONE felt it better to become the distributor instead of the dealer and offered a U.S. partnership with the manufacturer. And thus is born a reputable company... can it rise above it's former self?

I certainly hope so.

extratorker

My Feedback: (8)

Maudib

My Feedback: (51)

Just go buy one will ya? I'd love to see you get one of the first ones out and they be awesome and you enjoy every minute of it.... really.

And ya know... that will probably be just what happens.

You don't have to defend them... support them with your order.

I look forward to the build & flying threads.

ParticleMan

My Feedback: (24)

I haven't read this yet, as I haven't kept up with the thread, but I'm not surprised

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

Why not take a lesson from Tom of WildhareRC? No sob stories, no badmouthing the competition, no attitudes. Yet, Tom is successful just the same. Good honest airplanes, at good honest prices - that's all you need.

I hold at most a mild curiosity in most of the planes bashed by the EF guys. I've got wayyy too many ARFs still NIB as it is already. I am simply sick and tired of being bombarded with the same old EF spiel everywhere I turn to in these forums.

Yes, the bad guys will close up shop sooner or later. We all know that. No need to beat people over the head with your altruistic concern for your fellow RCers.

By all means, talk all you want about how much you love the EF planes. More power to you. But hold the raw onions, PLEASE!!!!

screwed over

I think the point here is not if EF planes are great or not ( I don,t own one ) but dealing with a disreputable company.
I wouldn,t buy a plane from the company that screwed EF on principle.

Maudib

My Feedback: (51)

Nevermind Brad... some people have no concept. They only wish they could be so passionate about the hobby. I'd trade sour grapes for a raw onion anyday.

v-snap

My Feedback: (18)

Hey guys I don't get it, we post our opinion on your attacks on these companies based on speculation. We still don't know really who is building these planes do we? I thought you couldn't find a company name or address from a domain search, and since they were yaks and looked like EF's they must be from the company that stiffed Chris. Heck we haven't even seen one of these yet.

As for the origonals if somebody wants a inexpensive arf that will require work why not, I am not against that also.

I am totally not against Chris, from the sounds of it I wouldn't mind owning one of is yaks and I have given it positive feedback to future buyers looking for their next plane and direct them to the EF thread. I am certainly not against a good flying airplane and a great company backing them. I applaud Chris with his ability to stick to his guns, he most certainly could have bought the defects and dumped them on us but didn't to save for the long haul business.

But when a question arises all we hear is how this company ripped off EF and its his rejects, how can you buy that, that is what gets annoying.

And Maubid I am passionate about this hobby just as much as anybody else that is why I like following these threads on all the new and old products.

Now I am done, back to the thread would the first sucker (I say that about any new model, its like being the first to buy that new redesigned car) to buy one of these please keep us informed.

Kitman

My Feedback: (13)

[quote]ORIGINAL: v-snap

Hey guys I don't get it, we post our opinion on your attacks on these companies based on speculation. We still don't know really who is building these planes do we? I thought you couldn't find a company name or address from a domain search, and since they were yaks and looked like EF's they must be from the company that stiffed Chris. Heck we haven't even seen one of these yet.

V-snap,

This is my last comment on the subject, the information I share with you is fact. I have spent time with both companies and the YAK's are produced by Sammy Lee the same company that Chris rejected and KMP ended up with and now is TOC1. I wish only the best for Matt at TOC1, but let be fair on who is who.

My whole intention in writing this is so the fellow modelers can make a fair decision. 40 years in this hobby and my goals is still the same be fair to the modelers.


Kitman

v-snap

My Feedback: (18)

Hey I am done, I agree you can only beat a dead arf so much and I wish the best for all. You sound like you have first hand knowledge on these companies which I have not seen posted prior.

Trust me on this I am very much against the (-) impact companies can have on this hobby and in my own way boycott those that are less than trustworthy.

Back to the business of Aircraft...gotta go check some hinges I just glued....

Volfy

My Feedback: (23)

Maudib, you got me there. I am definitely no where near as PASSIONATE about RC as you apparently are. For me, it is just a HOBBY. If and when I start buying roses for my 28% Patty Wagstaff for Valentine's Day, I might begin to catch a glimpse of what you go through.

What you describe reminds me of the Staturday Night spoof about TV ad for the Buick "Mistress". If any of you have seen that skit, you know just how "passionate" the owner of that particular Buick model was toward the car.

BTW, the person that just bought this 3W Yak 54 on RCU sure has much to be passionate about.