BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
12-21-2005, 08:48 PM
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BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
Anyone know the history of this airshow airplane.......I'm looking to purchase the out of Production Goldberg Kit and just wondered where they come up with that cowl set up and paint scheme.... Any sites online ?? Would like to build a plane the size of Dave Particks 1994 TOC Plane.
12-21-2005, 09:23 PM
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RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
There's not too much information out there. The Buker is one of my all time favorites. I personally like the round cowl. You may want to inquire Dick Hanson as he built a few for the TOC guys back in the day. I even went as far as to build a foamie of the Bucker. Kinda strange seeing that outline doing a tourque roll.
Shawn Berkheimer
R/C Blimp Productions
Shawn Berkheimer
R/C Blimp Productions
12-21-2005, 10:24 PM
#3
RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
That plane was built from a stock Bucker, by Jim Moser (dec.)-of Aerosport in Florida a few years back - Jim sent me all the pics of how he did it -and I made the scale models used in TOC -inc fuselages for Patrick's
The TOC models were exact scale including sizes of tail group and surface outlines
The allowable deviations were the wings -clipped 9% and the ailerons increased in chord.
The 9% clip -resulted in a model wihin the scale wingspan to all mods rule of 10% -which threw the scale judge for a loss at the time .
Now , most of the scale(?) IMAC biggies use a large fuselage and small wings - we did it by simply clipping the tips -- a very old technique on full scale areobats and racers.
The Bucker is a far better bipe for aerobatics than the Ultimate ever was but it is also more difficult to do correctly .
The TOC models were exact scale including sizes of tail group and surface outlines
The allowable deviations were the wings -clipped 9% and the ailerons increased in chord.
The 9% clip -resulted in a model wihin the scale wingspan to all mods rule of 10% -which threw the scale judge for a loss at the time .
Now , most of the scale(?) IMAC biggies use a large fuselage and small wings - we did it by simply clipping the tips -- a very old technique on full scale areobats and racers.
The Bucker is a far better bipe for aerobatics than the Ultimate ever was but it is also more difficult to do correctly .
12-22-2005, 12:15 AM
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RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
I can't imagine the work that must have gone into designing that. I'm having a rough enough time with a 40% Extra that I have in the works. I sure would like to find an old Pica kit and set it up with current technology and a DA 50
Shawn
Shawn
12-22-2005, 07:53 AM
#5
RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
The Pica kit is not the best design from weight to strength standpoint - I did one and added a large engine -a 2300 Tigre at the time - the wings have a central spar -with ribs slid onto them - no flex resistance. Fuselage has enough wood in it to build 2 Buckers -but it looks good in the shower!
This was before I did the Jungmanns-to see what the design looked like in the air
This was before I did the Jungmanns-to see what the design looked like in the air
12-22-2005, 08:07 AM
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RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
Dick,
Did Jim use a one-of cowling for that original plane...And Was his plane a stock Jungmann with a cowl
( and engine I'm sure) change and a cockpit canopy........There are quite a few plans for Stock
Jungmanns that might be modified for my Project. I'd really like to enlarge a Goldberg
Did Jim use a one-of cowling for that original plane...And Was his plane a stock Jungmann with a cowl
( and engine I'm sure) change and a cockpit canopy........There are quite a few plans for Stock
Jungmanns that might be modified for my Project. I'd really like to enlarge a Goldberg
12-22-2005, 10:02 AM
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RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
There seem to bee some confusion as what a Jungmann is:
Bücker built two types of biplanes at the time of WWII:
The Bü-131 Jungmann which was a two seat primary trainer (figure below left).
The Bü-133 Jungmeister which was a one seat advanced trainer (figure below right).
All original Jungmanns used inverted inline engines and
all the Jungmeisters, except for the prototype, used radial engines
As the original engines got scarce the Swizz hit on the idea of replacing the original engine with a Lycoming in the aircraft they re-christened the Lerche (Lark). The aircraft was fitted with new wings of a nearly symmetrical airfoil section and a Lycoming O-320 of 150 HP. This modification later became quite common in the U.S. as well. It may come to a surprise to some that the original aircraft used a Clark-Y airfoil.
If the aircraft were to be used for competition the front cockpit were covered up or removed altogether. It is probably the "Lerche" that served as the basis for the the Goldberg "Jungmann" kit.
PICA never made a Jungmann kit, it was a Jungmeister.
Do not try a DA-50 on a pica Jungmeister. The wings will be shredded as the design of the wing is not optimal.
/Red B.
Bücker built two types of biplanes at the time of WWII:
The Bü-131 Jungmann which was a two seat primary trainer (figure below left).
The Bü-133 Jungmeister which was a one seat advanced trainer (figure below right).
All original Jungmanns used inverted inline engines and
all the Jungmeisters, except for the prototype, used radial engines
As the original engines got scarce the Swizz hit on the idea of replacing the original engine with a Lycoming in the aircraft they re-christened the Lerche (Lark). The aircraft was fitted with new wings of a nearly symmetrical airfoil section and a Lycoming O-320 of 150 HP. This modification later became quite common in the U.S. as well. It may come to a surprise to some that the original aircraft used a Clark-Y airfoil.
If the aircraft were to be used for competition the front cockpit were covered up or removed altogether. It is probably the "Lerche" that served as the basis for the the Goldberg "Jungmann" kit.
PICA never made a Jungmann kit, it was a Jungmeister.
Do not try a DA-50 on a pica Jungmeister. The wings will be shredded as the design of the wing is not optimal.
/Red B.
12-22-2005, 10:41 AM
#8
RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
yeh -tho many model plans show the Jungmann and the Jungmeister a being the same plane with different engines - that is NOT so
the entire airframe was different -- rib spacing -- everything -
The Jungmann Jim Moser used was a Czech one -I think -I looked up the serial number.
Jim told me he stripped the plane (and I had the pictures but someone who borrowed em never brought em back) to the bare frame - then added the forward and top changes as well as moving the new single seat aft and lower (Jim was a big guy)
The 4 banger opposed required the new cowl -he did two versions- the Supermann was the second one . The first version he did was kitted by Pilot -and they presented him with one of the finished models from Japan!
The wheel pants -were -I think - Cessna. He also made a leather hinge seal for the rudder -which helped a LOT.
I did the wing clip to improve the plane for better roll rate and improved yaw stability. It was / is a terrific flyer .
Rojecki's had much better power to weight than Dave Patrick's -simply because the engines available to Dave could not overcome the larger size of themodel
When doing really large scale bipes - you just can't stick enough power in em for Unlimited performance - scale performance - yes -
I flew the 1790 sq in one with a ZDZ80 once just for shucks at 18 lbs all up terrific but I watched the power inputs.
using the drawings I did Larry Lutton made working plans and a nuber of guys built them as well as some who built the kits from Duane Sims in Idaho - I sold all my plans/parts to Duane as I simply was tired of making stuff . That kit was/is still a great performer -and is identical to the ones flown at TOC by Rojecki (2nd place in 1990) using souped up Tartans on pipes and alky.
Ideally a good light 60 gasser is best engine presently available - a ZDZ80 twin - something like that or any smooth running single 60 on a pipe
the entire airframe was different -- rib spacing -- everything -
The Jungmann Jim Moser used was a Czech one -I think -I looked up the serial number.
Jim told me he stripped the plane (and I had the pictures but someone who borrowed em never brought em back) to the bare frame - then added the forward and top changes as well as moving the new single seat aft and lower (Jim was a big guy)
The 4 banger opposed required the new cowl -he did two versions- the Supermann was the second one . The first version he did was kitted by Pilot -and they presented him with one of the finished models from Japan!
The wheel pants -were -I think - Cessna. He also made a leather hinge seal for the rudder -which helped a LOT.
I did the wing clip to improve the plane for better roll rate and improved yaw stability. It was / is a terrific flyer .
Rojecki's had much better power to weight than Dave Patrick's -simply because the engines available to Dave could not overcome the larger size of themodel
When doing really large scale bipes - you just can't stick enough power in em for Unlimited performance - scale performance - yes -
I flew the 1790 sq in one with a ZDZ80 once just for shucks at 18 lbs all up terrific but I watched the power inputs.
using the drawings I did Larry Lutton made working plans and a nuber of guys built them as well as some who built the kits from Duane Sims in Idaho - I sold all my plans/parts to Duane as I simply was tired of making stuff . That kit was/is still a great performer -and is identical to the ones flown at TOC by Rojecki (2nd place in 1990) using souped up Tartans on pipes and alky.
Ideally a good light 60 gasser is best engine presently available - a ZDZ80 twin - something like that or any smooth running single 60 on a pipe
12-22-2005, 11:39 AM
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RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
Thank You both for the replys .... So what we have is a BU 131 thats had external shape mods ( speaking of the Supermann)
Dick, You mentioned flying the TOC version on a zdz80.....I guess you have that plane sitting around.......I'm sure that the down lines were THrottleless..to avoid major stress on the wings..
Do you think this aircraft could be revived using the 150 or even 200 size engine ....Looking at a span of 100"....
IF I could find a kit of the goldberg...I simply intended to enlarge everything and reinforce....Might need to make a cowl........Has anyone out there tried this ???
Dick, You mentioned flying the TOC version on a zdz80.....I guess you have that plane sitting around.......I'm sure that the down lines were THrottleless..to avoid major stress on the wings..
Do you think this aircraft could be revived using the 150 or even 200 size engine ....Looking at a span of 100"....
IF I could find a kit of the goldberg...I simply intended to enlarge everything and reinforce....Might need to make a cowl........Has anyone out there tried this ???
12-22-2005, 12:04 PM
#10
RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
Sure just use outlines from the Goldberg but stay well under 3000 squares! 2500 is tops for those engines.
A ZDZ210 for bigger stuff
A ZDZ210 for bigger stuff
12-22-2005, 04:38 PM
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RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
Dick.
Is there anywhere to get one of the kits for the Jungmann. Have always liked them, better than Ultimate, much better. Have had opportunity to fly full scale version and they are a pilot's dream!!
Thanks for your help
Al
Is there anywhere to get one of the kits for the Jungmann. Have always liked them, better than Ultimate, much better. Have had opportunity to fly full scale version and they are a pilot's dream!!
Thanks for your help
Al
12-22-2005, 07:52 PM
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RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
That's a good looking airplane..
For anyone who hasn't seen one here's a link
http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...=1&sa=N&tab=wi
For anyone who hasn't seen one here's a link
http://images.google.com/images?hl=e...=1&sa=N&tab=wi
12-22-2005, 09:12 PM
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RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
Thats a great link !!! Thanks Looks like that cowl mod is actually pretty popular with the full scale crowd...Must be for an engine change....
Anyone know how to find an airplane ownership from an "N" number
?
Anyone know how to find an airplane ownership from an "N" number
?
12-24-2005, 05:53 AM
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RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
ORIGINAL: dick Hanson
yeh -tho many model plans show the Jungmann and the Jungmeister a being the same plane with different engines - that is NOT so
the entire airframe was different -- rib spacing -- everything -
The Jungmann Jim Moser used was a Czech one -I think -I looked up the serial number.
Jim told me he stripped the plane (and I had the pictures but someone who borrowed em never brought em back) to the bare frame - then added the forward and top changes as well as moving the new single seat aft and lower (Jim was a big guy)
The 4 banger opposed required the new cowl -he did two versions- the Supermann was the second one . The first version he did was kitted by Pilot -and they presented him with one of the finished models from Japan!
The wheel pants -were -I think - Cessna. He also made a leather hinge seal for the rudder -which helped a LOT.
I did the wing clip to improve the plane for better roll rate and improved yaw stability. It was / is a terrific flyer .
Rojecki's had much better power to weight than Dave Patrick's -simply because the engines available to Dave could not overcome the larger size of themodel
When doing really large scale bipes - you just can't stick enough power in em for Unlimited performance - scale performance - yes -
I flew the 1790 sq in one with a ZDZ80 once just for shucks at 18 lbs all up terrific but I watched the power inputs.
using the drawings I did Larry Lutton made working plans and a nuber of guys built them as well as some who built the kits from Duane Sims in Idaho - I sold all my plans/parts to Duane as I simply was tired of making stuff . That kit was/is still a great performer -and is identical to the ones flown at TOC by Rojecki (2nd place in 1990) using souped up Tartans on pipes and alky.
Ideally a good light 60 gasser is best engine presently available - a ZDZ80 twin - something like that or any smooth running single 60 on a pipe
yeh -tho many model plans show the Jungmann and the Jungmeister a being the same plane with different engines - that is NOT so
the entire airframe was different -- rib spacing -- everything -
The Jungmann Jim Moser used was a Czech one -I think -I looked up the serial number.
Jim told me he stripped the plane (and I had the pictures but someone who borrowed em never brought em back) to the bare frame - then added the forward and top changes as well as moving the new single seat aft and lower (Jim was a big guy)
The 4 banger opposed required the new cowl -he did two versions- the Supermann was the second one . The first version he did was kitted by Pilot -and they presented him with one of the finished models from Japan!
The wheel pants -were -I think - Cessna. He also made a leather hinge seal for the rudder -which helped a LOT.
I did the wing clip to improve the plane for better roll rate and improved yaw stability. It was / is a terrific flyer .
Rojecki's had much better power to weight than Dave Patrick's -simply because the engines available to Dave could not overcome the larger size of themodel
When doing really large scale bipes - you just can't stick enough power in em for Unlimited performance - scale performance - yes -
I flew the 1790 sq in one with a ZDZ80 once just for shucks at 18 lbs all up terrific but I watched the power inputs.
using the drawings I did Larry Lutton made working plans and a nuber of guys built them as well as some who built the kits from Duane Sims in Idaho - I sold all my plans/parts to Duane as I simply was tired of making stuff . That kit was/is still a great performer -and is identical to the ones flown at TOC by Rojecki (2nd place in 1990) using souped up Tartans on pipes and alky.
Ideally a good light 60 gasser is best engine presently available - a ZDZ80 twin - something like that or any smooth running single 60 on a pipe
Hi Guys,
I got one "Jim Moser edition" Bucker Jungmann (may be from Duane, it was in 1998...
) Dick, I had a phone call with you at that time telling me how good the plane was and where to get it.
I was really amazed by the flight capablities from this wonderfull and good looking biplane. I also put a ZDZ80. It was great but usefull power for unlimited vertical. Actually, if you performed more than one vertical snap with a good exit speed for pattern, you definitly need full power for this draggy machine (which is no more scale of course...)
I was really "brutal", I mean agressive with the plane, flying multiple full throttle snaps, lomkovaks, etc (flying on Jimmy Hendrickx music [8D]) , no structural damage up to now. Actually, I broke twice my ZDZ's cranckcase (first version, it's stronger now) due to gyroscopic forces [:@]
This Jungmann is a great aerobatic plane, very good rolls and trajectory, but it's not a great 3D performer. Ex: the torque roll is fast en no way to control it with the limited ailerons.
If you go full rudder, she becomes unstable, etc.
But the charm is stronger...
Enjoy it.
Happy Christmas,
A Bipe Lover
I will try to put picts from her in my hangar
12-24-2005, 03:55 PM
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RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
Thats great......Got an Email from a guy in my state who HAS A Goldberg KIt.
I'm going to do the Kinkos thing and see what happens....
Dave Patrick used a 3W140 in his...I Guess I'll get it built and see what weight I'm at...
Really Excited about this project
Thank you to all have contributed to this question........ ANYONE know what happened to DAVES plane...I remember seeing it for sale in a magazine along time ago
Bill
I'm going to do the Kinkos thing and see what happens....
Dave Patrick used a 3W140 in his...I Guess I'll get it built and see what weight I'm at...
Really Excited about this project
Thank you to all have contributed to this question........ ANYONE know what happened to DAVES plane...I remember seeing it for sale in a magazine along time ago
Bill
12-24-2005, 10:33 PM
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RE: BUcker Jungmann " Superman"
Thats great......Got an Email from a guy in my state who HAS A Goldberg KIt.
I'm going to do the Kinkos thing and see what happens....
Dave Patrick used a 3W140 in his...I Guess I'll get it built and see what weight I'm at...
Really Excited about this project
Thank you to all have contributed to this question........ ANYONE know what happened to DAVES plane...I remember seeing it for sale in a magazine along time ago
I'm going to do the Kinkos thing and see what happens....
Dave Patrick used a 3W140 in his...I Guess I'll get it built and see what weight I'm at...
Really Excited about this project
Thank you to all have contributed to this question........ ANYONE know what happened to DAVES plane...I remember seeing it for sale in a magazine along time ago
06-23-2009, 09:25 AM
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RE: BUcker Jungmann
ORIGINAL: dick Hanson
yeh -tho many model plans show the Jungmann and the Jungmeister a being the same plane with different engines - that is NOT so
the entire airframe was different rib spacing everything -
The Jungmann Jim Moser used was a Czech one -I think -I looked up the serial number.
Jim told me he stripped the plane (and I had the pictures but someone who borrowed em never brought em back) to the bare frame - then added the forward and top changes as well as moving the new single seat aft and lower (Jim was a big guy)
The 4 banger opposed required the new cowl -he did two versions- the Supermann was the second one . The first version he did was kitted by Pilot -and they presented him with one of the finished models from Japan!
The wheel pants -were -I think - Cessna. He also made a leather hinge seal for the rudder -which helped a LOT.
I did the wing clip to improve the plane for better roll rate and improved yaw stability. It was / is a terrific flyer .
Rojecki's had much better power to weight than Dave Patrick's -simply because the engines available to Dave could not overcome the larger size of themodel
When doing really large scale bipes - you just can't stick enough power in em for Unlimited performance - scale performance - yes -
I flew the 1790 sq in one with a ZDZ80 once just for shucks at 18 lbs all up terrific but I watched the power inputs.
using the drawings I did Larry Lutton made working plans and a nuber of guys built them as well as some who built the kits from Duane Sims in Idaho - I sold all my plans/parts to Duane as I simply was tired of making stuff . That kit was/is still a great performer -and is identical to the ones flown at TOC by Rojecki (2nd place in 1990) using souped up Tartans on pipes and alky.
Ideally a good light 60 gasser is best engine presently available - a ZDZ80 twin - something like that or any smooth running single 60 on a pipe
yeh -tho many model plans show the Jungmann and the Jungmeister a being the same plane with different engines - that is NOT so
the entire airframe was different rib spacing everything -
The Jungmann Jim Moser used was a Czech one -I think -I looked up the serial number.
Jim told me he stripped the plane (and I had the pictures but someone who borrowed em never brought em back) to the bare frame - then added the forward and top changes as well as moving the new single seat aft and lower (Jim was a big guy)
The 4 banger opposed required the new cowl -he did two versions- the Supermann was the second one . The first version he did was kitted by Pilot -and they presented him with one of the finished models from Japan!
The wheel pants -were -I think - Cessna. He also made a leather hinge seal for the rudder -which helped a LOT.
I did the wing clip to improve the plane for better roll rate and improved yaw stability. It was / is a terrific flyer .
Rojecki's had much better power to weight than Dave Patrick's -simply because the engines available to Dave could not overcome the larger size of themodel
When doing really large scale bipes - you just can't stick enough power in em for Unlimited performance - scale performance - yes -
I flew the 1790 sq in one with a ZDZ80 once just for shucks at 18 lbs all up terrific but I watched the power inputs.
using the drawings I did Larry Lutton made working plans and a nuber of guys built them as well as some who built the kits from Duane Sims in Idaho - I sold all my plans/parts to Duane as I simply was tired of making stuff . That kit was/is still a great performer -and is identical to the ones flown at TOC by Rojecki (2nd place in 1990) using souped up Tartans on pipes and alky.
Ideally a good light 60 gasser is best engine presently available - a ZDZ80 twin - something like that or any smooth running single 60 on a pipe
06-23-2009, 11:01 AM
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RE: BUcker Jungmann
Very interesting thread. I've been a Bucker lover since I started flying full scale in 1975. Have known several owners of the full size Jungmanns. I actually owned a homebuilt Jungster which is an 8/10th scale Jungmeister. It weighed 500lbs and was powered by a 150hp Lycoming. Finest aerobatic plane I've flown. It's nice to see the posts to differentiate between the two basic models. One design item of note was the fuselage tubings decreased in size (and perhaps wall thickness?) as they went aft.
I've flown RC since 1972 off and on and have a Platt 1/4 scale Jungmeister old enough to need recover and a Pica version kit being built (slowly). I've always wanted to make molds for a 1/4 scale and do a glass fuselage. I think I'll tackle that this winter. If so I'd like to come up with a better wing design than the Platt or the Pica so that the wings are stiffer (D section LE?) and build easier if possible. Maybe put a bit thicker airfoil on it for my flying altitude of 5,000 feet. I found a fellow nearby who just built a GB and will be able to have a look at his plans for wing design.
Red:
Thanks for letting us know about the Lerche. I'd thought the GB design was messed up having no front cockpit and a Lycoming cowl.
I've flown RC since 1972 off and on and have a Platt 1/4 scale Jungmeister old enough to need recover and a Pica version kit being built (slowly). I've always wanted to make molds for a 1/4 scale and do a glass fuselage. I think I'll tackle that this winter. If so I'd like to come up with a better wing design than the Platt or the Pica so that the wings are stiffer (D section LE?) and build easier if possible. Maybe put a bit thicker airfoil on it for my flying altitude of 5,000 feet. I found a fellow nearby who just built a GB and will be able to have a look at his plans for wing design.
Red:
Thanks for letting us know about the Lerche. I'd thought the GB design was messed up having no front cockpit and a Lycoming cowl.
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RE: BUcker Jungmann
I bought the last kit Duanne had and that was a few years back now. He has taken to Ford Model A's as a hobby. The Supermann glass work is the finest I have seen ever. Feather light. I haven't touched it yet. I had been looking for a Tartan twin as the TOC version did well on the 70 cc gasser. I have new older style 3W70 B2 but I think it is heavier than the Tartan. When I can find the right smooth running twin that's light and powerful I may procede. I was also thinking that it may have a longrer service life if not built with unlimited aerobatics in mind. In the manual it does say that it must be rigged unless a smooth twin is used.
Hats off to all involved with this great models creation.
A painting has been donated to Jim Moser's memory and hung in the St. Augustune Airport. Jim with N1947G.
Hats off to all involved with this great models creation.
A painting has been donated to Jim Moser's memory and hung in the St. Augustune Airport. Jim with N1947G.
