erjpilot

My Feedback: (4)

I picked up my 1/8" Italian Poplar today. No doubt about it, it is "Lite Ply." I took a piece of scrap 1/8" lite ply with me and it is identical. I got it at Atlantic Plywood Corp. $14.40 for the sheet.

http://www.atlanticplywood.com/

They have several locations on the east coast. Just make sure that you get the 4x8 sheet(grain running length-wise). They also have 8x4 sheets(grain running width-wise). You don't want the width-wise grain.

I also ordered the plans from AMA this morning. The lady told me it would be a few weeks until I receive them. I am planning on going with the Flying Thingz foam parts with the 3D wing. Has anyone gotten or ordered the glass parts yet from that company in Canada?

SilverEagle2

My Feedback: (9)

about 2-3 weeks out on the canopy. Told me that he had the plug done but did not have the vacuum form machine ready about 2 weeks ago. He said give him 4 weeks from then and he could start sending out everything. Nice guy. Said would be around $125 shipped for all parts.


Cheers

SilverEagle2

My Feedback: (9)

Picked up my plans yesterday at the AMA museum. Neat place if you have never been there. Was a lot of fun.

Anyway. This plane is big. My mom was standing around when I unrolled these plans and said, "You could fly your son in this." Grabbed my son and laid him over the plans. Sure enough, you could fly a 6 month old around in this. Wife would get nervous though.

Can't wait to get home and start cutting.

Happy Holidays to one and all.

Cheers

Superfab

The wife's first words when she saw the size of this thing was "How big a trailer are you going to build?"

This baby is big but beautiful. Has anyone bought the LG for this. Looked on TnT's web site and did'nt see the listing for the gear. Just wondering how much?

r degen

I received my gear this week also got the wing tubes,TNT now has a package on their web site for the Hurley Extra, has any one tried to get together a list of balsa ? Randy

Flynbulldog

My Feedback: (2)

I want to give potential builders a little background on the evolution of my design and the testing we did on some of the same ideas that Flyingthingz had for the 3Dwing

High Alpha flight is a very new phenomenon. Ask any full-size instructor that’s not familiar with our models and they will tell you that what we do is impossible. Full-scale planes are incapable of this type of flight at the level that we do it as modelers. Very little is known about what is actually happening and why some planes rock violently and others are stable. Because of its very nature HA cannot be tested in a wind tunnel. There is no commercial application and as such there has never been funding for real study. There are a few of us who are deeply involved in the SA community who are putting forth a great deal of effort to find the secrets to a stable 3D aircraft. I’ve been working on it for nearly five years. I can tell you this; the forces that act to make or break a design are extremely dynamic. Airfoil, wing shape, wing or tail placement, or control surfaces, none of these things alone will net you a good 3D aircraft. No one element is key, but just one out of place can kill the design. It takes a perfect combination of specific components placed in relation to each other in just the right way to make a 3D design work.

In theory a thicker airfoil with a blunt leading edge like the fun-fly planes sounds like it would be a good idea. About four years ago when I was developing the first prototype for this plane I thought the same thing. At the same time a buddy of mine was doing some testing on his 1/3 scale laser and began doing the very same tests. We were a couple of states apart and didn’t know that the other person was doing the same experiments. What we found was that during straight and level flight there wasn’t much of a problem, but add in 3D control throws and the plane became a handful! Before stall the plane was fine but 3D begins after the plane is stalled, at that point the plane becomes very unstable with wing rock that is uncontrollable. In addition snap characteristics were horrible, the plane would not snap cleanly having a hard time getting into the stall that makes a plane snap, not enough elevator and the plane does a big barrel roll. But once into the snap the plane did not want to come out of it resulting in over-rotations and uncontrollable snap exits. All in all the theory sounded good but it just didn’t work on a giant scale aerobatic plane. It wasn’t good for 3D and it wasn’t good for precision. My friend found the exact same thing testing that same summer with his laser.

After Speaking with Levi from flyingthingz I appreciate what he was trying to do and I want to thank him for contacting me. He has offered to let me try the new design wing and I look forward to taking a look at it. Because the new wing is untested my advice is to stick with the wing that I designed to work with the plane, you’ll have a design that is proven and a great flying airplane for both 3D and competition.

If anyone has any questions or concerns about my design I invite you to contact me directly [email protected]

Mike Hurley

SilverEagle2

My Feedback: (9)

I suppose that you are right on the 3D wing variation. It is very true that the design may not be compatible with the design of the fuse. You make a very strong point in that without building a model themselves and testing it, they have no strong basis in which to base the claim it will do better.

However, I think that there is some concern with your comment with Flyingthingz producing the foam parts. I am not going to endorse or discredit Flyingthingz here. My only concern is that you are stating that Flyingthingz is "unauthorized." You included the templates in your plans for each of us to cut our own foam parts. As a consumer, I have the right to either do this work myself or find a friend who has more experience to do this for me. I think that it is only fair that I pay some sort of compensation for the time they spend doing this service for me. That, and help with the costs associated with materials and equipment. Now, if I were to make these parts myself, would I be "unauthorized" as you state? If I take this to a friend to do it, would he be "unauthorized" as well? What if my friend is Flyingthingz?

As far as profit, your "Authorized" dealer is charging nearly 2 times the competition. Who is actually doing us the service an taking less profit. Not the guy charging twice as much as the other. Flyingthingz guarantees their work to be within 100th of and inch. Seems accurate enough for me. So why would I go to a guy charging twice for a guaranteed "good as" or "better" product for half.

Mike, I am very glad you have endeavored to give the modeling world a top notch design. I am truly excited to build this aircraft. I am sure that this will become my favorite plane in my hanger when complete. I understand that you do not take any profit from the vendors, but you cannot expect us to ignore competition. I do however empathize with you on feeling like you put in a ton of effort (which is clearly evident) and now feeling a little burned. I certainly hope that this causes you to feel like you never want to do something like this again. That would be a great shame.

I feel that I may be on my soapbox.

Bottom line;

Mike, great plane. Now off to build the least expensive, highest quality way.

Cheers

cncfoam-RCU

I agree that Flyinghingz shouldn't create unauthorized parts, and I also agree on other things in this post,
but I do have a comment on this post.

I am going to refer to the AMA Mission statement....I've highlighted and quoted the part that is relevant.


AMA Mission

The Academy of Model Aeronautics is a world-class association of modelers organized for the purpose of
"PROMOTION, DEVELOPMENT, EDUCATION and ADVANCEMENT of modeling activities."

The Academy provides leadership, organization, competition, communication,
protection, representation, recognition,
"EDUCATION AND SCIENTIFIC/TECHNICAL DEVELOPMENT to modelers."


My idea on this is that it should of been an open source project, open to all manufacturers, since this is sponsored by
Model Aviation, AMA magazine. In my own opinion, it seems that you are protecting only certain manufacturers. I understand
that they do have a lot of work into the project. I also feel that this verbal assault on someone in our industry is
unwarranted.

I am not trying to create bad blood or be mean spirited, but I am a little guy that would love to be in this great industry
and create high quality products for the people, and I hope that this isn't the normal procedure for making it in this industry.

If you would like to share information on your project, I would be happy to reproduce your plane as best I can. Also, there are
probably a few guys that would like to recreate their templates in a CAD program for accuracy.
Eric Zimmerman
AMA#717080

P.S.
I have purchased your plans.
As far as the comment about not profiting from this project, reminds me of a statement that I believe in..
"You get paid by "BRINGING VALUE to the marketplace." You have brought value to the market place and the payment is
not always in the form of money.

jeide

My Feedback: (111)

Hi. Has anyone received the foam parts from flyingthingz and how do they look? Jim

JNM123456789

How is everyone coming along? Where did you guys get the foam and how did the cores look? What stage is everyone at? I'm just keeping tabs on this project as I am planning on building one myself. I've seen it fly and it looks GREAT in the air! There is no doubt that the standard wing does well in 3D, I've watched Mike fly it in high-alpha attitude, no problems that I could see. The DA100 is a perfect choice for the bird.

dland911

I hope that good will can win out in this thread. I purchased plans for the Extra the day I received my issue of MA and have checked all of the forums, that I can find, on a regular basis in order to follow the progress of those building this plane. I have also emailed the editorial staff of MA to let them know how much I am enjoying this article. (It would be nice if there was a forum for this discussion on the MA site.)

I very much appreciate Mike's willingness to share the fruits of his experience and labor. And I can understand his frustration with those who might begin to making changes to his design without the first hand experience of working with this plane/design. His cautions regarding using these changes seem reasonable and a discussion with the designer would probable have been a good idea this early in the building process. I hope that Mike and anyone else willing to share with the rest of us will continue.

I also appreciate those out there who are willing to share their skills at a reduced cost to make this plane a possibility for those who have limited resources or are simply trying to keeps costs down. I don't know exactly why there is such a price difference in foam parts, it would be interesting to know, but the reduced price may make this plane a possibility for a greater number of people. I don't think that charging less to produce parts anyone building this plane will have produce, unless we purchase them, is violating the integrity of the design. Anyone with the plans has access to the templates. Charging so little is not going to make anyone rich.

I just hope that civility and cooperation can continue. Too many times I have read the downward spiral of exchanges surrounding an issue. Computers are wonderful but sometimes I think too much is lost and too much is read into what is posted. Misunderstandings and conflict can too easily result. Thanks to all and Merry Christmas.

poprlite

My Feedback: (25)

will 1/8 luan work for the fuse sides because all that i can find in Atlanta area besides luan is 8x4 italian poplar,no one seems to have the 4x8 sheets

thanks
chad

FlyinFoam

I am Bob Mellen, the founder and owner of FlyingFoam.com. We are listed by Mike Hurley, the designer of the 35% Extra 300LX that appears in the January 2003 issue of Model aviation as the source for the foam core set for this aircraft.

I have been following this thread for the last several weeks and I feel an explanation is necessary as to why we charge $232.38 for a set of cores that is available elsewhere for less than half this price.

Let me assure you that it is not our intent to overcharge anyone.

The cost of producing foam cores consists of material costs, packaging costs, machine time, labor and overhead. Although some of these costs are similar for all CNC core cutters, our machine time costs are higher, because we use a custom built machine that was many times more expensive to build than the stepper motor based machines used by our competitors.

Our CNC foam cutter uses closed loop, brushless DC servo systems that have far greater positioning accuracy and smoothness than open loop stepper motors. To my knowledge, we are the only foam core service using this technology.

Our servos are driven by an industrial quality CNC controller that is used by major aerospace manufacturers and suppliers to produce parts for full sized commercial and military aircraft. The CNC controller is free of data starvation, a problem that will cause axis motion to stop while the controller makes wire path calculations while processing many small motion segments. This allows our system to generate up to 2000 control points per airfoil to produce continuous, uninterrupted motion that is free of wire marks that must be sanded out of the cores before sheeting. This combination produces part quality that cannot be duplicated with stepper motor systems, and is the major reason why our machine time and core pricing is higher.

We worked closely with Mike Hurley to insure that the cores we produce for the 35% Extra will fullfill the requirements of his design. Mike and several T.O.C. competitors, including the champion of the 2003 event, have used cores from FlyingFoam.com because of our reputation for producing a quality and precise product.

I realize that our service is not for everyone. This is a free country and you can choose your core supplier based on your requirements and your budget. Foam cores from FlyingFoam.com will appeal to competitive flyers and builders who appreciate cores that look good, are accurate, and require little preparation for sheeting and finishing. Others
may not see this value and will purchase their cores elsewhere at a lower price and don't mind dealing with the fit and finish problems that they may encounter. This is your choice.

In either case, the 35% Extra 300LX that Mike Hurley has created is probably the most well documented aircraft in this size class, and I suspect all of us will be busy cutting cores for this aircraft for some time to come.

I hope all of you that tackle this project enjoy building and flying the Extra 300LX that Mike Hurley has designed.

[email protected]

CHM

My Feedback: (28)

I've been wondering the same thing. Yes, I can add, but if someone has already come up with a ballpark total cost you would be doing many of us a favor!

Also- Anyone in Minnesota found a ply source yet? I'll check with my cabinet maker friend and let you know if I find any.

Thanks,
Chuck

Flying Thingz

Flying Thingz....

We talked to Mike Hurley about some things and we have worked out all the dealings on foam parts, wood sets and changes. We will be sending a set of the 3D wings to Mike for hime to inspect and test. His design is great as is, and we will be supplying all the parts needed to anyone that wants them.

If anyone has doubts that our CNC cut foam is less than perfect, please visit our website to see examples, details or request a free sample.

We are sure that flyingfoam.com offers a great product and wish them the best of luck in orders and business. We are simply offering these cores for close to materials only cost, and are not making much money. You are choosing this scratch built kit to save money right? Well we are just lending a helping hand by keeping the cost down and quality up.


I hope averying can enjoy building and flying this airplane. We are making our money in other areas with our own kits, and simply want to assist you all in getting bigger and better!

Happy New Year to all.

Levi
Owner of Flying Thingz

SilverEagle2

My Feedback: (9)

DA 100 w/mufflers $1295.00
4X8 Lite ply $16.00
Aeroglass Fiberglass parts $125.00
FlyingThingz Foam $99.00
Balsa and aircraft ply $150.00
TNT Deluxe Gear package $175.00
Plans $49.50

Total $1909.50

Add another $45.00 for misc shipping and you are about there.

These are exact prices or high estimates.

I did not include tools, building supplies (adhesives, etc.) and radio equipment. Mine is going to be in the upper spectrum so I left it out.

Hope this helps

Cheers

poprlite

My Feedback: (25)

Who bought there foam from flying thingz,just want to know if they are good cores

SilverEagle2

My Feedback: (9)

But I don't belive they have shipped yet. I believe that the first ones will go out here in the next few days. I'll be sure to let you know when I get them. If the cores are as nice Levi is, then they will be awsome as promised.

Cheers.

r degen

I emailed Levi this morning he said mine should be shipped this week. Randy

Flying Thingz

Hey thanks for the kind words.... The first cuts were sent out today, and they are awesome. The wing tube is great, and we added the aileron servo lead tubes to help out in building time.

For those that are still deciding wether or not to cut their own, or want to check out the cuts befor buying we will have some pictures of the parts on our website (www.flyingthingz.com) in a few days. Check out the CNC cuts page, there is a link on the left of the main page.

Good day....

EJB

OK,I think that's everything except the canopy(I think)Not counting the DA 100 we are at $659.50.Add apx. $40 for the canopy & we are at $ 699.50.Hmmmmm,how much is a Carden or an Aeroworks kit?

SilverEagle2

My Feedback: (9)

The canopy was in the Aeroglass parts price!

Cheers


BTW

Carden 35% Extra 699.00
Aeroworks 37% Extra 1099.99 33% 749.00

Point?

CHM

My Feedback: (28)

Perhaps there is not very much money to be saved unless you cut your own parts. By the time you add up all the shipping charges, phone calls, gas, time, and misc., I think it's just about a wash. Maybe the kit producers aren't so high priced after all?

And if I figure in my time...a Fiber Classics is a bargain!

There is, however, much satisfaction in building from plans. I'm glad that Mike & MA did the article.

Happy New Year!

Fly4Fun2

My Feedback: (25)

Firs tof all, the kits you listed are great kits and well worth the price. As far as a scratch built vs kit in price though, I think you are giving up a lot of the "scratch" building. Plus, the TNT Delux gear set includes things not in the Carden or Aeroworks kit. The basic $91.50 set is more compareable.

With the stuff listed above, you are basically getting the same thing as you do in the Carden or Aeroworks kit. Carden edge trues their sheeting balsa and matches it by use for you. When you have this much sheeting, it really makes it nice!!!!

Now, if you want to scratch build as much as you can....
Plans - $49.50
4X8 ply - $16
Balsa and other ply - $100 ($150 seems a tad high, plus most scratch buiders have a TON of spare wood in their shop)
TNT Gear - $91.50 (I know, you could bend and mold this stuff yourself, but why???? It is very difficult and TNT does such GREAT work!)
Foam - $60 (Cut it yourself)
Fiberglass parts ($75 for glass, resin, mold release, etc.)
Canopy $10 (Byutrate sheet - vacu-form it yourself)

total cost - $402 give or take and probably at least 200 more hours of your time.

RobertC

My Feedback: (157)

So, given even this "on the cheap" cost (of $402), why not just get a GP 1/3 Extra? Tower has them for ~$325 now (and even less when you add the $15 discount). Pretty much the same plane, no?