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Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

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Old 02-22-2010, 04:43 PM
  #101
Barry Cazier
 
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

Congratulations on your maiden. That is one sweet looking airplane. I don't have a bi-plane but am looking to get one. This is on the list. Do the stabs just glue to the fuse sides like the CAP and Reactor? or is there something more substansial to glue too?
Please give us the weight. Us that live in "nose bleed" altitude are very interested in weight....I would probably go with the trusty DLE 55 or I have a BME 58 extreme looking for a home or the new DA 60 if it ever come out. I might even consider a new OS 55 for this bird. But I haven't heard any reports on that engine.
Well done on your build. Looks very very nice.
You said it was all the way down to 80*F....our high today is 17*F with approx 12" of snow still left on the ground...Dang....I wish spring would come.
Thanks
Barry
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Old 02-22-2010, 05:22 PM
  #102
kochj
 
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

From the way it is flying, if you need extra power..(sounds like the China 55cc is working fine) for your
oxygen lacking atmostphere, just sick a 80cc in it..... Not much more than a 50cc engine... JMHO...

Barry, you had better take a breakfrom typing, you might be out of breath.....\\

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Old 02-22-2010, 07:18 PM
  #103
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Barry Cazier

Congratulations on your maiden. That is one sweet looking airplane. I don't have a bi-plane but am looking to get one. This is on the list. Do the stabs just glue to the fuse sides like the CAP and Reactor? or is there something more substansial to glue too?
Please give us the weight. Us that live in "nose bleed" altitude are very interested in weight....I would probably go with the trusty DLE 55 or I have a BME 58 extreme looking for a home or the new DA 60 if it ever come out. I might even consider a new OS 55 for this bird. But I haven't heard any reports on that engine.
Well done on your build. Looks very very nice.
You said it was all the way down to 80*F....our high today is 17*F with approx 12" of snow still left on the ground...Dang....I wish spring would come.
Thanks
Barry
Barry,

Yikes, you are at altitude. I can relate as I used to live at altitude myself. Thin air is a beach when flying.

I will do the weights tomorrow after work.

The winter sun here gave me a light case of sunburn yesterday. If it gets below 60* here people start wearing coats! You don't want to be here in summer though. 80* minimum & 100* maximum for months on end. It blows.

I started doing vinyl decal designs today. I do my own cutting so my limits are artistic. I use a Roland Stika SX-15. Bling-bling for my toys!

Bliksem
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:29 AM
  #104
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

Yes, those non-aluminum landing gear are a pain. That's right where some of mine have cracked or delaminated; at the angle between horizontal and long limb of the gear. Maybe Great planes should consider including aluminum gear. What do you think, Jim?
Otherwise, glad to hear your maiden went well.
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Old 02-23-2010, 09:32 AM
  #105
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

Nice photos of the Pitts. Does it come with wheel pants, or did you just decide to leave them off for now?
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Old 02-23-2010, 11:07 AM
  #106
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D


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ORIGINAL: drbyrnes

Yes, those non-aluminum landing gear are a pain. That's right where some of mine have cracked or delaminated; at the angle between horizontal and long limb of the gear. Maybe Great planes should consider including aluminum gear. What do you think, Jim?
Otherwise, glad to hear your maiden went well.
Well, you ask what I think? I think there is not a simple answer so maybe I will try to give you some insight to the decision process we go through to bring you what we feel is a great product. When this thread started all the speculation was around weight issues. When designing an airplane weight is in the forefront of our designs along with structural strength. In the case of this airplane we originally had an aluminum gear. It was very strong but very heavy. As we worked towards the final version of this airplane we needed to find some weight reductions. Part of the solution was to switch to the landing gear that is currently provided with this airplane. It was much lighter than the aluminum landing gear. Of course it needed to be strong as well. We flew the airplane and performed multiple landings. Not all of the landings were good; many were purposely hard landings so we could be sure that the gear would hold up. We experienced no problems with the landing gear so it was the gear we settled on.

As you all are aware, each of you has your own opinions about airplanes. Some of you are concerned about weight, for others it strength. Some of you want all of the newest high tech stuff. The one thing we know is that all of you want whatever is important to you at the lowest cost possible (i.e. …cheap!). This is where our dilemma begins. We have to try to come up with one solution that will make everyone happy. That is not ever going to be possible, not for Great Planes or any other manufacturer. We all face the same dilemma. Some small companies have stepped in with after market solutions to give you exactly what you want. Of course this costs you more to get what you feel is best for you. One solution that we could have implemented would have been to given you a carbon fiber landing gear. It would have given you the strength of aluminum without the additional weight but it would have increased the cost of the kit in the range of $50 - $75 per kit. That would have made the airplane less competitive and many of you would not have felt that we delivered a great value. We had a similar dilemma with the spinner. This airplane required that we provide a spinner that was turned from bar stock from so we went ahead and designed a proper CNC machined bar stock spinner painted to match the airplane. The spinner would have raised the kit price up too much in our opinion....so like the majority of airplanes sold in this category....we did not include a spinner with this kit. Of course some have expressed disappointment that we did not provide a spinner. Does it really benefit you if we provide a spinner, build the cost into the kit and then you feel it is not good enough and you have to spend more money on an aftermarket spinner?

I hope this helps you understand some of the compromises that we need to consider in the development of an airplane. Please know that we strive to put out the best product possible for the best possible price to provide you with a good value for your modeling dollars. The landing gear that is included with the Pitts is strong. We had no landing gear failures in testing. Some of you may notice a few stress cracks occur from what might be a hard impact on landing. But the landing gear is strong enough for the weight and the rigors of this airplane and will provide you with many happy landings.

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Old 02-23-2010, 07:03 PM
  #107
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

Jim,

I totally understand the economics of manufacture and agree with your explanation regarding choices. Here in deep south Texas we rarely have calm days and most landing are cross-wind to some degree. The sideways motion of the aircraft stress the landing gear much more than hard landings straight into the wind.

What peeves me is the incorrect description on the Tower Hobbies website regarding the landing gear composition. This means that I as a consumer need to suck up the additional costs to retrofit my aircraft with suitable landing gear.

Bliksem


EDITED: I removed the text copied from the Tower website and also the rude remarks I made regarding this. Tower has updated their website and the landing gear is now listed as composite.

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Old 02-23-2010, 07:16 PM
  #108
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D


Quote:
ORIGINAL: drbyrnes

Nice photos of the Pitts. Does it come with wheel pants, or did you just decide to leave them off for now?
Dick,

I will fit the wheel pants once I have proper landing gear. These were supplied in the kit.

Bliksem


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Old 02-23-2010, 07:51 PM
  #109
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

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ORIGINAL: blikseme300


As far as I am concerned I have been lied to.

Bliksem

You are going to have to take that up with Tower Hobbies (yes i understand they are connected to Hobbico...). Great Planes website doesn't say anything about the aluminum gear.

Thanks for posting the nice pictures, that looks like a fun plane.
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Old 02-24-2010, 08:48 AM
  #110
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

Bliksem,

I was unaware that the tower web site had the wrong information about the landing gear. I will see to it that it gets changed. Please don't feel as if you were lied to. You can only imagine the amount of information that is passed through the data input people at Tower. I am sure it was a mistake, not an intentional oversite.

Jim
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:58 PM
  #111
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

How much prop clearance do you have with a 22" prop and fuse level? Thanks Don.
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Old 02-27-2010, 07:36 PM
  #112
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D


Quote:
ORIGINAL: jimkim

Bliksem,

I was unaware that the tower web site had the wrong information about the landing gear. I will see to it that it gets changed. Please don't feel as if you were lied to. You can only imagine the amount of information that is passed through the data input people at Tower. I am sure it was a mistake, not an intentional oversite.

Jim
Jim,

I agree that it was most likely an unintentional oversight. I see the site has been updated and the correct information is now listed.

FWIW I replaced the stock U/C with 6061-T6511 1/4" gear. The material cost me under $13. It took about an hour to fab.

I flew my Pitt's 3 times today. This is a very good flying aircraft. Regardless of my annoyance regarding the Tower website I do recommed this aircraft to any intermediate & advanced pilots. It flies F3A sequences well.

Bliksem


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Old 02-27-2010, 07:37 PM
  #113
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ORIGINAL: Donairplane

How much prop clearance do you have with a 22" prop and fuse level? Thanks Don.
Don,

Did not use a ruler but with a 23" prop I have about 4 1/2" clearance.

Bliksem


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Old 02-27-2010, 08:33 PM
  #114
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

Thanks Don.
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Old 02-28-2010, 03:47 PM
  #115
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

Landing gear update:

After my second flight with my M-12 the right landing gear leg showed signs of delamination. The landings were done in 10mph 90* crosswinds. These wind speeds are common here in deep south Texas and are considered normal.

I initially made replacement gear using 1/4" 6061 T6511 aluminum. These work great but are overkill and heavier than required. I made a new set using 3/16" T6511 stock. The material was cut from a 4" wide bar. The blanks were bent over a 1/2" mandrel. Pics are here: http://bliksemseplek.com/m12.html

The weight difference is a mere 62 grams. This aircraft easily absorbed this change and flies with no change of trim required.

This aircraft is a keeper. Flies very accurate and easy to make you look good. It handles very well in windy and gusty conditions.

Don: I measured the prop clearance and it is indeed 4 1/2" with the 23" Bambula prop.

FWIW the DLE55 runs very well. After 6 flights it is still a solid engine. Pulls this aircraft with much authority. Seems the Chinese are back in the saddle as far as high technology metallurgy is concerned.

Bliksem

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Old 02-28-2010, 09:49 PM
  #116
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

jimkim,
Nice to see some posts from someone from Great Planes and I apppreciate your comments and all you guys do while keeping an eye on costs. My GP Ultimate Bipe is the best plane I have ever owned. And at agreat price. Building Bipe #2 at the moment as I crashed the first one last year. The M-12 looks very sharp.

Good Luck!
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Old 03-01-2010, 10:00 AM
  #117
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

blkseme300, Where did you obtain the aluminum stock for the very nice LG you fashioned?
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Old 03-01-2010, 12:13 PM
  #118
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D


Quote:
ORIGINAL: drbyrnes

blkseme300, Where did you obtain the aluminum stock for the very nice LG you fashioned?
Dick,

The stock I used came from McMaster-Carr - mcmaster.com Part numbers for 4" stock is 8975K422 & 2" stock is 8975K533 I used a piece of 4" stock. I calculated my cost of the gear I made by linear inch. A single 2" x 36" should be enough to make a set also and at $9.43 the cost is minimal. BTW - this is the same material type that TNT uses for their landing gear.

If you are planning to make your own be sure to use a proper bender with a suitable diameter mandrel or the material will crack. I test bent 1/4" stock around a 1/2" mandrel and it showed small cracks. When a 3/4" mandrel was used there were no cracks. The 3/16" material bent perfectly around a 1/2" mandrel. Do not pound a bend in this material in a vise as it will crack.

I am thinking of making 10 sets and having these to trade or for sale. (For trade I need some Xoar 22x10 props. A set for a prop sounds about right - about $30 - 35 total.) These will be brush finished & drilled, not polished or painted. PM me if anybody is interested.

Bliksem

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Old 03-04-2010, 10:32 AM
  #119
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

If you don't me asking, what servos were used for the rudder and ailerons. The local hobby store here is recommending Futaba standard (digital 80z) servos for the ailerons, contrary to what's recommended on the box.
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Old 03-04-2010, 10:34 AM
  #120
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

80 oz will not be enough. Follow the recomendations with the kit.
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Old 03-04-2010, 11:01 AM
  #121
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

blikseme300,
Do you have a weight on this plane yet? I'm waiting to hear to see if possibly it will work for me up here in thin air.
Your build looks perfect and beautiful. I love the landing gear, excellent job.
Thanks
Barry
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Old 03-04-2010, 09:06 PM
  #122
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D


Quote:
ORIGINAL: emailbanter

If you don't me asking, what servos were used for the rudder and ailerons. The local hobby store here is recommending Futaba standard (digital 80z) servos for the ailerons, contrary to what's recommended on the box.
Emailbanter,

I don't think that 80oz servos will be enough. I am using Futaba S9206's on all surfaces except the rudder which is a JR 8611a. Hobby stores sometimes will recommend what they have, not what is required - I am trying to be polite here. Underpowered servos are not the way to go, IMHO.

Bliksem

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Old 03-04-2010, 09:09 PM
  #123
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Barry Cazier

blikseme300,
Do you have a weight on this plane yet? I'm waiting to hear to see if possibly it will work for me up here in thin air.
Your build looks perfect and beautiful. I love the landing gear, excellent job.
Thanks
Barry
Barry,

Hopefully this saturday will be flyable. I will weigh it then and get the weight listed. Check out the weather at my zip 78541 on noaa.gov for what is supposedly coming. I am so looking forward to some flying...

Thank you for the compliment on the gear.

Bliksem


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Old 03-06-2010, 09:15 AM
  #124
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

I can't be as kind as bliksem. The hobby shop that recommended 80 oz servos for a 50 cc 19 lb. gas is just plain incompetent, and borders on negligence. One thing I learned early on.............if you spend a lot of money on any component of a model airplane, spend it on servos! I have a 50 cc. 18-20 lb. plane with 170 oz servos on flying surfaces. If you ever have a servo failure during a high G manuver, you will loose your plane, and, most importantly place people on the ground at risk for injury.
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Old 03-06-2010, 10:54 AM
  #125
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Default RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D

I lost my first big plane, a 25% CAP232, to servo failure. I used 80 oz Karbonite geared servos. That was the stupidist thing I ever did in this hobby. It wasn't a total loss but I had to buy a new wing. The coolest thing Hitec ever did to me was give me replacement servos, (4) 5645's for no additional cost (and they worked great). Those guys are ok. It was my fault.

I tried to pass my lesson onto my buddy that was using 3004's on a Funtana 100. He didn't listen to me and had a flutter almost ruin his plane. It's a hard lesson. He buys only way over powered servos now.
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