Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
02-08-2010, 08:09 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
ORIGINAL: SMALLFLY-
For what it's worth I emailed great planes and they did verify real weights of 19-20 lbs, bummer I really wanted one, but 19.5 lbs on a 50 is just to much for real 3d
For what it's worth I emailed great planes and they did verify real weights of 19-20 lbs, bummer I really wanted one, but 19.5 lbs on a 50 is just to much for real 3d
02-09-2010, 02:54 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
Does anyone have this plan in their hands yet? I'm looking for a Pitts to do an electric conversion on....already have the brushless motor which is equivalent to a 50cc gas engine. Even at 20lbs, I'd have have what is considered 3D power.
My question is, how easy is it to get towards the front of the plane with that hatch off?? I need to be able to fit some large lipos up front and want to be able to take them out to charge etc. I can't tell from the manual....even called Hobbico and they weren't very helpful.
My question is, how easy is it to get towards the front of the plane with that hatch off?? I need to be able to fit some large lipos up front and want to be able to take them out to charge etc. I can't tell from the manual....even called Hobbico and they weren't very helpful.
02-09-2010, 03:02 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
3D power isn't really the issue. It's wing loading. With all the power in the world, you'll have great vertical pullout. No matter how much power you have, it's not going to matter if your wing loading is bad. That's a really big reason a lot of "3D" planes fly like bricks, and a big reason as to why foamies fly so well.
02-09-2010, 03:15 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
Hey guys, it’s nice to see there is interest in our new Pitts! I have worked extensively on the Pitts but I am just one of a team of designers with Great Planes. We always read your comments with great interest when we have a new release. Sometimes the comments are valuable and then there are the times when we just kind of scratch our heads. The posts on the Pitts have so far focused on the weight of the airplane, whether we have posted an accurate weight and comments on the video we posted on line. Some of the comments have been favorable and others not so much. It would appear that no one has been able to speak about the Pitts from actual experience yet so some of the conclusions that have been made seem a bit misplaced.
I thought I might take this opportunity to help you understand what we do when developing a new product and what you can expect from us when we release a new product.
In the case of the Pitts, 3 years ago we recognized that this airplane could be very popular so we began the development process to bring you a high performance version of this great full scale airplane. Early in the development process it became evident that weight would be a critical issue. We worked on developing a lightweight structure that would hold up to the rigors of 3D flying and the stress that is put on the airframe from the vibration of a 50cc or larger engine. Developing the structure is just the first step. After that the airplane moves into the testing phase. This is when we make sure that the airplane has the proper incidences for the wings, stab and engine. Through flight testing we make sure the airplane can meet the performance expectations of the customer. In the case of the Pitts we determined that the very lightweight airframe was not strong enough to hold up to the type of flying that many of you would be doing. This sent us back to the drawing board. We spent a great amount of time examining all areas of the airplane to determine where structure needed to be added and where we could remove weight from other areas of the plane and still end up with a strong lightweight airplane. You may not be aware that weight is not the only factor in creating a good all out 3D airplane. Choice of airfoil, wing area wing loading, etc are all factors. A light airplane with a bad airfoil will not necessarily make a good 3D airplane. I won’t bore you with the details of the testing of this product but we worked with three different airframes before we brought you the airplane that is now available.
When we market a product and list weight specifications I am often taken back by the comments I read. One person will think we under report the weight while someone else will think that the airplane will be heavier than advertised. I can not speak for other manufacturers but from our perspective it does not serve our company or our reputation to put false weight expectations on the box. I think we do a very good job of representing the weight of our products. In the case of the Pitts we could have flown the airplane with very lightweight Lipo batteries or used a small fuel tank or flown with smaller lighter weight servos to get our overall weight down but we didn’t. The plane was flown with a 6 volt, 4200 mAh receiver pack, we used a larger than required ignition pack, we used metal geared servos, not plastic geared servos. All of this is done so that we can be sure that the plane will perform with the equipment that you will most likely use and that if you choose to use all of the heaviest components the airplane will still perform well. We could have used a 55cc engine to give it a little extra oomph, but we know a lot of you have 50cc engines in your shop so we chose to show the airplane with the 50cc engine. To account for variances in wood we even test the airplane at a weight 10% higher than our highest advertised weight.
When we are testing the performance of the airplane we are very lucky to have a number of very good 3D pilots including Frank Noll. There are not many pilots that are better than Frank so when Frank tests the airplane and agrees that it is acceptable as a 3D airplane then we feel we have achieved our goal. The videos we post are not edited to make the airplane look better than it actually is. If you look at the video of the Pitts, Frank put it through hovering maneuvers, high alpha flight and a number of typical 3D maneuvers. We made sure that the airplane could do waterfalls, blenders, hovering, etc.
All of our testing allows us to accurately represent our products to you. Our videos show you what you can expect from the airplane and the airplane will do what we show.
We don’t do everything perfect but we spend a lot of time working to bring you the best product we can that will perform, be strong and look good when you are at the field. If you purchase a Pitts I assure you it will perform as shown in our videos and the claims and specifications in our marketing are accurate. I hope this explanation will help you make a better informed decision on the Pitts!
I thought I might take this opportunity to help you understand what we do when developing a new product and what you can expect from us when we release a new product.
In the case of the Pitts, 3 years ago we recognized that this airplane could be very popular so we began the development process to bring you a high performance version of this great full scale airplane. Early in the development process it became evident that weight would be a critical issue. We worked on developing a lightweight structure that would hold up to the rigors of 3D flying and the stress that is put on the airframe from the vibration of a 50cc or larger engine. Developing the structure is just the first step. After that the airplane moves into the testing phase. This is when we make sure that the airplane has the proper incidences for the wings, stab and engine. Through flight testing we make sure the airplane can meet the performance expectations of the customer. In the case of the Pitts we determined that the very lightweight airframe was not strong enough to hold up to the type of flying that many of you would be doing. This sent us back to the drawing board. We spent a great amount of time examining all areas of the airplane to determine where structure needed to be added and where we could remove weight from other areas of the plane and still end up with a strong lightweight airplane. You may not be aware that weight is not the only factor in creating a good all out 3D airplane. Choice of airfoil, wing area wing loading, etc are all factors. A light airplane with a bad airfoil will not necessarily make a good 3D airplane. I won’t bore you with the details of the testing of this product but we worked with three different airframes before we brought you the airplane that is now available.
When we market a product and list weight specifications I am often taken back by the comments I read. One person will think we under report the weight while someone else will think that the airplane will be heavier than advertised. I can not speak for other manufacturers but from our perspective it does not serve our company or our reputation to put false weight expectations on the box. I think we do a very good job of representing the weight of our products. In the case of the Pitts we could have flown the airplane with very lightweight Lipo batteries or used a small fuel tank or flown with smaller lighter weight servos to get our overall weight down but we didn’t. The plane was flown with a 6 volt, 4200 mAh receiver pack, we used a larger than required ignition pack, we used metal geared servos, not plastic geared servos. All of this is done so that we can be sure that the plane will perform with the equipment that you will most likely use and that if you choose to use all of the heaviest components the airplane will still perform well. We could have used a 55cc engine to give it a little extra oomph, but we know a lot of you have 50cc engines in your shop so we chose to show the airplane with the 50cc engine. To account for variances in wood we even test the airplane at a weight 10% higher than our highest advertised weight.
When we are testing the performance of the airplane we are very lucky to have a number of very good 3D pilots including Frank Noll. There are not many pilots that are better than Frank so when Frank tests the airplane and agrees that it is acceptable as a 3D airplane then we feel we have achieved our goal. The videos we post are not edited to make the airplane look better than it actually is. If you look at the video of the Pitts, Frank put it through hovering maneuvers, high alpha flight and a number of typical 3D maneuvers. We made sure that the airplane could do waterfalls, blenders, hovering, etc.
All of our testing allows us to accurately represent our products to you. Our videos show you what you can expect from the airplane and the airplane will do what we show.
We don’t do everything perfect but we spend a lot of time working to bring you the best product we can that will perform, be strong and look good when you are at the field. If you purchase a Pitts I assure you it will perform as shown in our videos and the claims and specifications in our marketing are accurate. I hope this explanation will help you make a better informed decision on the Pitts!
02-09-2010, 03:24 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
Jim, for the electric conversion guys, can you comment on an electric conversion and the ease of access to the front part of the plane with the canopy removed? I called Hobbico, and didn't receive much guidance. Do you have a picture that would help perhaps??
02-09-2010, 03:59 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
jimkim,
Thanks for that excellent report!
I've had my eye on this plane ever since the news of it's release. I can't wait to get mine as it's a beautiful airplane.
A perfect mate to my GP Christen Eagle.
Thanks for that excellent report!
I've had my eye on this plane ever since the news of it's release. I can't wait to get mine as it's a beautiful airplane.
A perfect mate to my GP Christen Eagle.
02-09-2010, 07:35 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
Hello Jim
On a separate note, does GP have a 50cc reactor bipe in the works. I love the way the 60 looks and flies but I'm still dreaming with a 50cc I just hope that it comes in a red/blue/gold covering (kinda like my skybolt) would probably put one of those new 55cc OS engines.
Happy Landings
On a separate note, does GP have a 50cc reactor bipe in the works. I love the way the 60 looks and flies but I'm still dreaming with a 50cc I just hope that it comes in a red/blue/gold covering (kinda like my skybolt) would probably put one of those new 55cc OS engines.
Happy Landings
02-09-2010, 08:38 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
Doesnt anyone have any pictures or anything on this model??? How is the building going?? What motor will you be using on it??? Someone has to have one of these in their hands. I want some feedback from someone who has one of these cool birds!!! PICS Please!
02-09-2010, 08:41 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
Update:
Well, UPS tried to deliver a pre-crashed plane last week. The replacement is, as I type, on it's way to Oklahoma City en route to me here in deep south Texas. Scheduled delivery is on the 11th. I will be doing pics and weights as soon as possible.
Bliksem
Well, UPS tried to deliver a pre-crashed plane last week. The replacement is, as I type, on it's way to Oklahoma City en route to me here in deep south Texas. Scheduled delivery is on the 11th. I will be doing pics and weights as soon as possible.
Bliksem
02-10-2010, 08:11 AM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
Lets wait and see regarding the weight. My M12 is already past Oklahoma City en route to me - delivery scheduled tomorrow 11th Feb. The funny thing is that the weight on the UPS tracker shows 90lbs! Sounds like they used steel plate for the packing material.
Pics will follow.
Bliksem
Pics will follow.
Bliksem
02-10-2010, 12:13 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
ORIGINAL: blikseme300
Lets wait and see regarding the weight. My M12 is already past Oklahoma City en route to me - delivery scheduled tomorrow 11th Feb. The funny thing is that the weight on the UPS tracker shows 90lbs! Sounds like they used steel plate for the packing material.
Pics will follow.
Bliksem
Lets wait and see regarding the weight. My M12 is already past Oklahoma City en route to me - delivery scheduled tomorrow 11th Feb. The funny thing is that the weight on the UPS tracker shows 90lbs! Sounds like they used steel plate for the packing material.
Pics will follow.
Bliksem
A lot of times shippers use whats called dimension weight. What they do is take the dimensions of a package and assign a weight based on those dimensions and that is how the freight charges are assed. Of course I could be wrong, the box could actually weigh 90 pounds. If so, I hope its because they packed it so that a semi could run over it w/o damage, because the alternative.....well lets just say you better have a REALLY good 50cc engine.
02-10-2010, 01:08 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
hello,
well it is a beautiful airplane for sure, but it is too heavy..why the gp ultimate is 16 lbs??? i don't understand why gp does a so heavy plane, beatififul yeeeeeeessssssssss but too heavy....
Stéphane
well it is a beautiful airplane for sure, but it is too heavy..why the gp ultimate is 16 lbs??? i don't understand why gp does a so heavy plane, beatififul yeeeeeeessssssssss but too heavy....
Stéphane
02-10-2010, 01:11 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
I ve got an EF yak 88'' which is almost 19 lbs, very heavy, so why i would buy a pits ?
Stéphane
Stéphane
02-10-2010, 03:29 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
People are reading far too much into this one. As MM says above the EF Yak weighs over 19# and it flies GREAT on a 50cc engine.
This Pitts has at least 10% more wing area than any other 50cc plane on the market (granted it is a biplane). I think we should at least give it a chance before condemning it outright before it is even on the market.
The fuse on this plane is HUGE (speaking of volume, not length) so it should be capable of generating a large amount of lift in rolling maneuvers.
This Pitts has at least 10% more wing area than any other 50cc plane on the market (granted it is a biplane). I think we should at least give it a chance before condemning it outright before it is even on the market.
The fuse on this plane is HUGE (speaking of volume, not length) so it should be capable of generating a large amount of lift in rolling maneuvers.
02-10-2010, 07:58 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
Heh, heh, weight comments always make me laugh. Back when I was still doing the pattern thing this subject was always the hot one. Weight is just one of the many defining factors to good flying aircraft. AFAIAC (as far as i am concerned) 3-D flying is UGLY!!!! It is like big wheeled, hi-lifted trucks. Compensating for something?
My M12 is in San Antonio, as I write. Scheduled for delivery tomorrow, 11th Feb.
(Need to remember to take van to work to bring big boxes home - yep, I drive a compact)
Bliksem
My M12 is in San Antonio, as I write. Scheduled for delivery tomorrow, 11th Feb.
(Need to remember to take van to work to bring big boxes home - yep, I drive a compact)
Bliksem
02-10-2010, 09:33 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
Hey blikseme300. What motor are you going with on your Pitts?? Do you do more 3D or more pattern flying? Are you building the pitts for 3D or pattern or just because you like the design?? I am thinking of ordering this plane also but am concerned about the weight/wingloading.
02-11-2010, 07:19 AM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
ORIGINAL: flynhighr
Hey blikseme300. What motor are you going with on your Pitts?? Do you do more 3D or more pattern flying? Are you building the pitts for 3D or pattern or just because you like the design?? I am thinking of ordering this plane also but am concerned about the weight/wingloading.
Hey blikseme300. What motor are you going with on your Pitts?? Do you do more 3D or more pattern flying? Are you building the pitts for 3D or pattern or just because you like the design?? I am thinking of ordering this plane also but am concerned about the weight/wingloading.
I will do some 3D tests once the engine is sufficiently run in and proven to test the abilities of this combo.
My M12 is "out for delivery", whoo whoo! Vacation next week, so.....[watch this space]
Bliksem
02-11-2010, 08:07 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
Got mine today. Here are some pics:
bliksemseplek.com/m12.html
It started raining as I unpacked it so could not take more pics. When I got home I opened up the fuselage and cowl. The covering is very good with hardly any imperfections. The cowl is done very nicely as well. The only negative so far is the composite landing gear. It looks like it is made from polyester and glass, like the GP Ultimate. Bummer. The Tower website information page is wrong. It lists the UC as bent aluminum. I will be in contact with TNT to make me a set of aluminum gear.
Bliksem
bliksemseplek.com/m12.html
It started raining as I unpacked it so could not take more pics. When I got home I opened up the fuselage and cowl. The covering is very good with hardly any imperfections. The cowl is done very nicely as well. The only negative so far is the composite landing gear. It looks like it is made from polyester and glass, like the GP Ultimate. Bummer. The Tower website information page is wrong. It lists the UC as bent aluminum. I will be in contact with TNT to make me a set of aluminum gear.
Bliksem
02-11-2010, 08:16 PM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
I wonder if the gear is the same as the Ultimate. In that case I have a Graphtec CF gear for the Ultimate! I will measure and let you know....
Perry
Perry
02-12-2010, 09:15 AM
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RE: Great Planes 25% Pitts M-12s 3D
I am glad your plane managed to survive delivery. I guess you now know what it means when UPS asked, "What can Brown do to you!". (or something like that!) I thought I would just throw in a thought since you mentioned the landing gear. We have had some composite gear develop cracks in the past. The manufacturer has made some changes and they are better than the earlier versions. The gear for the Pitts was really tested hard by us and it held up very well. You will find that the Pitts crawls in when you land so you will either have to make very bad landings or be trying to land the plane hard before I think you would see a problem develop with the gear. Spend your money as you wish but I would suggest you give the gear a try before parting with more of your hard earned dollars.
ORIGINAL: blikseme300
Got mine today. Here are some pics:
bliksemseplek.com/m12.html
It started raining as I unpacked it so could not take more pics. When I got home I opened up the fuselage and cowl. The covering is very good with hardly any imperfections. The cowl is done very nicely as well. The only negative so far is the composite landing gear. It looks like it is made from polyester and glass, like the GP Ultimate. Bummer. The Tower website information page is wrong. It lists the UC as bent aluminum. I will be in contact with TNT to make me a set of aluminum gear.
Bliksem
Got mine today. Here are some pics:
bliksemseplek.com/m12.html
It started raining as I unpacked it so could not take more pics. When I got home I opened up the fuselage and cowl. The covering is very good with hardly any imperfections. The cowl is done very nicely as well. The only negative so far is the composite landing gear. It looks like it is made from polyester and glass, like the GP Ultimate. Bummer. The Tower website information page is wrong. It lists the UC as bent aluminum. I will be in contact with TNT to make me a set of aluminum gear.
Bliksem