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Smoke Oil formulas

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Old 05-31-2010, 11:56 PM
  #1
kmtranmd
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Default Smoke Oil formulas

I'm looking for effective substitute for SuperDri Aviation smoke oil. I'm running 32oz tank on my 150cc 3W extra and getting less than 5 min of smoke. Super Dri is pretty spendy by the gallon $22.99 at Tower which gives me 4 flights. Please share experience with thick smoke results. I've read in the forums about using diesel vs cleaner kerosene/parafin oil alone or mixed with 10% of paint thinner. Seems to be a pretty flammable combo. I need a mix that is less flammable if possible since I'm flying on a grass/wheat farm. Some people have tried Conosol 260 and believe it's close to the SuperDri oil. I've also heard of people using hydrolic fluid years ago. Anyway, I need help so as not having to reinvent the wheel to find smoke oil brew. Please share your experience.
Thanks,
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Old 06-01-2010, 07:57 AM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

MY experience (several years worth) suggests two things:

1) There IS no "substitute" for Super Dri.  There are dozens of alternatives (Transmission fluid seems to be the most popular) but each, imo, sacrifices SOMETHING.  Either it is more difficult to ignite, produces less smoke, thinner smoke, harmful (to the airplane or potentially even you) smoke, etc.  Every alternative I've seen sacrifices SOMETHING to super dry.

2) If you're going though 32 oz in 5 minutes you are running WAY WAY WAY WAY too high a volume.  I regularly get _2_ 8-10 minute flights out of a 32 oz tank in a twin.  I believe your "solution" lies not in finding an alternative mixture, but in significantly limiting the amount of oil you're currently using.

Depending upon your smoke pump, you may be able to simply mix it down to a lower speed, or electronically limit the voltage, or mechanically limit the intake side of the oil lines.  (I always shy away from limiting the out put side...it drives pump current up considerably, shortening battery life)

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Old 06-01-2010, 08:22 AM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

i have tried various things and always came back to the smoke oil
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Old 06-02-2010, 07:28 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

http://www.bennettbuilt.com/smoke.htm
This is what I have been using, cheaper than what you quoted from Tower, and it really works well.
I'm using the B&B system on a 4.2 Sachs engine, 24 oz. tank, that lasts 7-8 min. full on, not trying to conserve, just turn it on let'er rip.
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Old 06-03-2010, 04:39 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

I have read about the different products used for both R/C and full scale and they appear to be straight paraffinic base oils. I am the Technical Director for an independent lubricant manufacturer and I think I have what might make good smoke oil. I have not used any before but I am planning on it in the future. I'd be willing to send you a gallon of it if you will give it a try and give me some feedback. It is simply and aliphatic hydrocarbon that is nonhazardous with a flash point >250F so its not flammable either. The Cas# is the same as listed for the preferred one you have used and it is very similar to the Conosol 260 you mentioned. Let me know if you wan to try it and I'll get a gallon out to you. Don't worry, if it works I'll let you know what it is so maybe you can get it from a local lubricant blender for a better price.
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Old 06-04-2010, 08:31 AM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

Sniggemann,
Interesting stuff and thanks for your imput.
I too have been experimenting with different smoke oils over the years. Everything from baby oil to candle oil to tranny fluid. I always seem to come back to Super Dri or the Bennett product. A few years back a friend who works in a local lab ran an analysis on Super Dri to see what it really was made up. It turned out to be hydrogenated Kerosene [middle distillate]. For us dummies I guess this means that it is basically kerosene with hydrogen atoms added to it. He also told me that it has a flash point of 260 degrees and a boiling point of 470 degrees. I"d be interested in hearing more about your product to see if it's less expensive and burns cleaner and thicker that what's out there now.
Thanks and good flying,
paul pacoflyer@aol.com
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Old 06-04-2010, 09:48 AM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

I have been using some smoke oil from Robart. A buddy of mine picked up a 5 gallon bucket at Joe Nall… He said it was $13 a gallon. I was just looking at their web site, but didn’t see it.

I have no suggestions on alternatives. However, I have a 24oz tank and get 8-10 minutes of smoke on my DA-100. It runs at just under 3 oz a minute at full throttle.

I have been experimenting with introducing the oil into the muffler as more of a spray than a stream and that seems to make smoke much more efficiently. (see attached images) I get really good smoke and even after 5 full flights with smoke there is very little residue on the plane.

I have considered wrapping some brass tubing around the muffler to act as a pre-heater so when the oil goes into the muffler it is much closer to its flash point. Has anyone tried that with a gaser?

I would love to test spraying the oil in a fine mist. I think there is a lot of room for improvement when it comes to RC smoke systems. With oil at $23 a gallon there has got to be a better way than just dumping into the muffler.
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Old 06-04-2010, 04:20 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

CCDave:

What kind of tips are those? I am thinking about adding smole to my ZDZ210 and an OS91DF. Two projects that I have at the house. They are not completed yet, but i'm already thinking of the details. Your idea makes me think about nozzles. Like NOS (nitrous oxide) nozzles as used in drag racers and motorcycles. Are those even posible? Can an RC smoke pump create enough pressure to be able to utilize those types of nozzles?

Rafael
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Old 06-04-2010, 05:34 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

Quote:
ORIGINAL: Rafael23cc

CCDave:

What kind of tips are those? Your idea makes me think about nozzles. Like NOS (nitrous oxide) nozzles as used in drag racers and motorcycles. Are those even posible? Can an RC smoke pump create enough pressure to be able to utilize those types of nozzles?
Rafael,

They are just [link=http://www3.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&W=000409111&I=LXK139&P=K]6/32 Great Plane Pressure fittings[/link] that I inserted a small metal tube into the end and lighty squeezed it with pliers until I got the flow you see in the picture. The metal tube that I used was a crimp for a pull-pull cable. It is about 5mm long and 1.5mm ID.

I really don't know what kind of pressure the pump can handle... It would be interesting to see if a NOS nozzle would work. I wonder if all the tubing from the pump to the nozzle could handle all the pressure or would the pump fry in a short period of time?

I am very open to ideas. I think the first thing I am going to experiment with is pre-heating the oil by wrapping brass tubing around the muffler and running the oil through that before going into the muffler.

Yes, I know you don't need to pre-heat oil for a gasser, but I am going to try it anyway!
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Old 06-05-2010, 09:02 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

Go to your local airshow, bring a 5 gallon can and talk to thr F.B.O (fixed base operator). I buy mine from them for about $7 per gallon.
Filter it well and it makes great smoke just as in a full size.

I just picked up some from our local show for free. it is called SHELL DIALA OIL AX. Jets and piston both used it!
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Old 06-07-2010, 07:09 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

Has anyone tired Bio-diesel........................
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Old 06-07-2010, 09:56 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas


CCDave:

Thanks for the info. Seems like I need to do some experimenting of my own too, unless somebody does it first. I too have heard (read) that pre-heating the oil is better. I imagine that if it is good for nitros, It should be even better for gassers. A pre-heated oil vaporizes faster.

I need to get off my butt (and off the computer) and finish those projects.

Rafael

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Old 06-07-2010, 10:03 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

One of the guys here locally just started using "mineral oil" mixed with a bit of diesel?(or was it ATF?), like 10%. I know "mineral oil" could be a pretty broad term, but he got it from the electric company here. Apparently it is the oil that is stored in the electrical transformers on the power poles. The story goes that the utility has to send samples in to the lab to be tested occasionaly, and the lab sends it back to them to dispose of, which becomes a PIA for the utility. Maybe there is an electrical lineman here that can confirm, deny, or tell us more about this?

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Old 06-08-2010, 04:30 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

SHELL DIALA OIL AX
Thats what this oil is for. We just used it at our full scale airshow.
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Old 06-08-2010, 07:03 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

I've just contact MDW Super Dri:
5 gallon bucket is $72 but UPS shipping is $50 to Oregon, ouch.
55gallon drum is $484 or $8.80/gal but shipping is murder too and can't find enough guys to buy that much volume.
So back to the home brew ideas.
I will do some experimentation with various combos mentioned.
Anybody know where to get the Shell oil?
We will not get airshow in Oregon until August to sponge off those guys.
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Old 06-08-2010, 07:06 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

http://www.mil-specproducts.com/prod...Fch_5QodIyiGZQ

Notice above that this Shell Diala oil is almost as spendy as Super Dri.
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Old 06-08-2010, 09:33 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

For those of you tempted to use transformer oil, some of that oil is contaminated with PCB. Check on Google, I myself will stick with the good stuff.
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Old 06-08-2010, 09:42 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

I need to reply to this....... new transformer oil does NOT contain PCB's. If the transformer oil is used and drained form a transformer that previously has PCB's in it MAY be contaminated with PCB's.
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Old 06-10-2010, 11:49 AM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

Quote:
ORIGINAL: kmtranmd

I've just contact MDW Super Dri:
5 gallon bucket is $72 but UPS shipping is $50 to Oregon, ouch.
55gallon drum is $484 or $8.80/gal but shipping is murder too and can't find enough guys to buy that much volume.
So back to the home brew ideas.
I will do some experimentation with various combos mentioned.
Anybody know where to get the Shell oil?
We will not get airshow in Oregon until August to sponge off those guys.


I would have gone in on the drum, but my skywriter died for the fourth time now, and I'm sick of sending it back. Sullivan has been nice about not charging me for the repairs, but this pump has hardly worked and when it has, it did not last very long. I'm just feeling done with smoke for now.

-Pat
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Old 06-10-2010, 05:02 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas


Quote:
ORIGINAL: CCDave

I have been using some smoke oil from Robart. .........I have considered wrapping some brass tubing around the muffler to act as a pre-heater so when the oil goes into the muffler it is much closer to its flash point. Has anyone tried that with a gaser?

I would love to test spraying the oil in a fine mist. I think there is a lot of room for improvement when it comes to RC smoke systems. With oil at $23 a gallon there has got to be a better way than just dumping into the muffler.
You are on the right track Dave. My nephew and I have been experimenting with some different ideas and we wrapped the mufflers on his DA100 with brass tubing and it helped quite a bit. We also tried your idea of working the ends of the nozzle to get a finer spray and that helped too.
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Old 06-13-2010, 10:57 PM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

Yesterday I read that bio diesel works well, regular diesel ain't gonna cut it in my vehicle. If that doesn't work I will try kerosene and mineral oil. Let you know this weekend.
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Old 06-14-2010, 07:27 AM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

Some of the jet guys in my area have been using the Conosol 260, and they say it looks and smells just like Super Dri, and it puts out smoke just like Super Dri.
We have a local supplier for the Conosol 260, so it is cheaper than Super Dri. Some of these guys have been using the Conosol 260 for a couple of years now.
I haven't tried it yet because I'm still working on using up my drum of Super Dri.

By the way, I have found that as Super Dri gets older, it only smokes better, so if you want to get a drum for yourself, it won't go bad.
Do you know any truckers? Ask a trucker buddy to bring home a drum of Super Dri from Chicago the next time he goes through there.

Jim
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Old 06-14-2010, 09:08 AM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

Just bought 4 gallons of Robart smoke oil for $79.00 shipped..I have heard some good things about it so we will see. Will be trying it on out thurs when the rain stops.
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Old 06-14-2010, 10:42 AM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

For Oregon, check with Tower on the 5 gal bucket. I think they have a dist center in Reno so shipping should be better than direct from MDW.

On the Skywriter pump, it has a cheapo $2 brushed motor in it that tends to carbon up on the brushes. I just took mine apart and cleaned it up and reassembled it and its working ok (for now).

I don't use the smoke that frequently so a 5 gal jug will last me a long time.
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Old 06-14-2010, 11:41 AM
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Default RE: Smoke Oil formulas

Here's a bit dated list of what one full scale Air Show performer requested:

Texaco Canopus 13

Shell Carnea 10 or 22

Sun Oil Company circle X Light

Sun Oil Company Sun Vis-7

Standard Oil Company Facto 39

Union Oil Company Unax 105

These oils are high paraffin oil with no additives

I haven't searched all the types here so some may not be produced anymore.

Jack
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