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Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

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Old 05-09-2007, 03:07 PM
  #26
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Colin, thanks for the kind words. I chuckle at all the "you have over powered the airftame" and the "it won't fly scale" comments. There are two very important things in a scale representation of flight. Controlled scale flight pattern and engine exhaust note. Regardless of the engine size, the plane can be flown in scale fashion. I as so many, perfer to have the extra reserve for the just in case scanario.
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Old 05-10-2007, 09:26 AM
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

You have to remember that having an underpowered model will ensure a SCALE crash!
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Old 05-10-2007, 05:44 PM
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Good news! I have secured the face plate of the St710, bad news I had to do it without taking off the collector. Truthfully I do not see how I can remove it! I emailed Kelvin, but He was on vacation so I did not bug him about it. I guess the best course of action is to go back and use some loctite and tighten everything back down.

Any loctite suggestions?
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Old 05-10-2007, 06:54 PM
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Your a better man than I am Charsb!!! Good job!

Believe it or not I have found that Blue Permatex brand works better than Loctite.
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Old 05-11-2007, 06:43 AM
  #30
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build


Quote:
ORIGINAL: chasrb

Good news! I have secured the face plate of the St710, bad news I had to do it without taking off the collector. Truthfully I do not see how I can remove it! I emailed Kelvin, but He was on vacation so I did not bug him about it. I guess the best course of action is to go back and use some loctite and tighten everything back down.

Any loctite suggestions?

Chas,

I am not sure I understand the problem but;

If you want to add loctite without removing the part, they make a penetrating loctite, I think its the green stuff if I recall. But I am not sure of the temperature range it is good for.

If you can loosen it up, some the red high temperature RTV you can get from auto parts stores should do the trick.
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Old 05-11-2007, 10:03 AM
  #31
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Sure I can back the cap screws out enough to place either permatex or the locktite on it. That collector is not coming off. I haev tried - again to remove it. It's easier to use my custom rt angle hex key (over and over and over) to address the loos screws.

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Old 05-11-2007, 03:55 PM
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

BobH,
It could possibly be the DVD I have been shipping out. If it's really on a CD-ROM it's not mine. What's his name? I have a list of who I have shipped to.
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Old 05-12-2007, 12:49 PM
  #33
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

I'd like to touch on the incidence issue once again. My question is: if making an adjustable center section so as to change the incidence one need only to make the front cabanes the adjustable ones?

That could end up really being alot of trouble more than the benefit. Start with the model spec and interpret the information here on the site. Which brings up a point, where are all the already built Flair Stearman folks? There have to at least a hundred maybe more. How great it would be to have their input after flying the plane for a number of years.



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Old 05-12-2007, 01:16 PM
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Hi Chasman,

I have build and flying the flair Stearman. The top wing incidence is set in the manual for engines with not so much power.
I have had a 60 cc Moki Boxer on it and have to set the incidence for the top wing 2 degrees less than in the manual told.

Also the down trust of the engine must set correctly, i have try that several times in practice and with washers I set the right side and down trust.

At last it was nutral on the elevater in different flight manoeuvres and airspeeds but it cost me 10 test flight to came that way.
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Old 05-12-2007, 03:34 PM
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build


Quote:
ORIGINAL: chasrb

I'd like to touch on the incidence issue once again. My question is: if making an adjustable center section so as to change the incidence one need only to make the front cabanes the adjustable ones?

That could end up really being alot of trouble more than the benefit. Start with the model spec and interpret the information here on the site. Which brings up a point, where are all the already built Flair Stearman folks? There have to at least a hundred maybe more. How great it would be to have their input after flying the plane for a number of years.



Chas,
Did you read my previous post, regarding flying the model with no elevator, when this topic was under the kit building thread ?

Colin
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Old 05-12-2007, 07:13 PM
  #36
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Colin I do recall that post. Flying without the elev had to be a bit challenging. I am using a CF arrow shaft as my control linkage.

I just went back and put the airframe (fuse) on the level and double checked my horz stab incidence, it is at 3.2 deg. Since I have not covered and mounted my stab I can still change the incidence should I need to. The larger engine is something we did not cover much in the orginal forum - it makes a good point. With the weight and power diff. an incidence may need to be modified to handle the different weight/power curve.




Thanks
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Old 05-12-2007, 07:18 PM
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

redcesar, thank you for that input. So I would imagine that with the ST 710 at 70cc, I may want to follow what you did. Can you describe some of the issues you went thru to get you to where you are today? Like "at first the wing set at 3.5 deg handeled this or that way" That may go a long way to help understand the charcteristics of this plane with a larger engine.

Thanks!
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Old 05-12-2007, 08:19 PM
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Charsb,

I am making headway on the "incidence thing". It's fairly complicated but possible to calculate with a little work. You need to know the following to get the correct answer:

1. Tailplane efficiency
2. Area of wings and tailplane
3. Distance between wing and tails aerodynamic center
4. Slope of the respective airfoil's lift curve
5. Fuselage area distribution
6. Downwash variations

The coolest part is the lift curve because if you select the right airfoil for the tailplane it will balance out against the lift of the main wings at different speeds. Here is where you get the "I have to constantly change the trim for different speeds" complaint when the design is not properly balanced.

I am gathering all of my data and will attempt the calculation on a known full scale aircraft to see how close I come to the actual setting. Once I have this nailed I will post the results here.
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Old 05-12-2007, 08:26 PM
  #39
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

That will be very cool, Cybertom! If you take the full scale Stearman and and reduce your calc by the factor for the Flair you will have solved the mystery!
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Old 05-12-2007, 08:32 PM
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Charsb,

PS,
The Reynolds number is both a measure of speed and chord which results in a measure of "SCALE EFFECT"

Just what we were looking for!!!

Now when I create my Gladiator I will have some math to stand behind the choices I make. Math is much better than BS!

This will give me a much better starting point and some understanding of what I will need to do in order to optimize the design during the flight testing.
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Old 05-13-2007, 11:34 AM
  #41
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build


Quote:
ORIGINAL: chasrb

redcesar, thank you for that input. So I would imagine that with the ST 710 at 70cc, I may want to follow what you did. Can you describe some of the issues you went thru to get you to where you are today? Like "at first the wing set at 3.5 deg handeled this or that way" That may go a long way to help understand the charcteristics of this plane with a larger engine.

Thanks!

The basic adjustments must be okee such as SG, down and side trust engine etc. including the incidence for the top wing 2 degrees less than in the manual told.

After that the best way to adjust your plane is to go fly with it and look at the plane his behavior. I have used the trimming chart to adjust.

So as i told you it cost me at least 10 flights to correct the plane. But keep in mind that it is not a Extra but a biplane with moderate airbatic possibilitys.

Cesar.

The trimming chart can you find here.

http://www.nsrca.org/trimA.htm#PDF

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Old 05-19-2007, 07:43 PM
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

1/4th Flair Stearman Thread Participant Makes BIG SPLASH at Top Gun 2007

I don't know if any of you remember ARGON (Bob Gonzalez) from the old Flair Stearman thread. He bought the same Robart R780 as I did and was working on the Flair Stearman kit. Back then I mentioned that the next Bi-Plane I would probably get was the 1/3rd Team Genesis WACO YMF5. Well Bob shelved the Flair Stearman kit, beat me to the punch and bought the 1/3rd Team Genesis WACO gas radial engine and all.

Well Bob has shown us all that it's never to late in life to achieve greatness. Bob finished his WACO and if you can believe this got 9th place overall in a team event at Top Gun 2007 in his first attempt!!! I think he won best biplane as well. Isn't great to know that we had greatness in our midst. I'm guesing that we still do and others here will make their mark just as Argon has. Here is a picture of his WACO:


Way to go ARGON!!!
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Old 05-20-2007, 09:08 AM
  #43
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

What a beautiful plane! What did he do with his Flair kit?

It is very cool we had someone of this caliber partisipate in the forum you started Tom!
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Old 05-20-2007, 10:21 AM
  #44
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Charsb,
I think he still has it but it's unfinished. I was supposed to come up with a better motor mount for him that wasn't ridiculously expensive to make (which I haven't). It’s really cool that Argon was/is one of us. I think that there are still others in this thread that will make their mark.

If you look at some of Argon's posts from the old thread you can see that at the time he was starting out with the Flair Stearman kit like the rest of us asking questions and sharing information. What he did over the past 3-years to really differentiate himself was to make the effort to grow his abilities to the point where he was able to compete at Top Gun 2007.

He sent me an updated email address which is the only reason why I found out. He is definitely low key about his accomplishments. I hope he doesn't mind what I am writing but I think its inspirational to others. He definitely took the ball and ran with it!

His last quote really struck me. Here he is telling me that "I will achieve greatness some day" and all along it was Argon who would be destined to get there first. This has got to show everyone here that you can make your dreams a reality by showing the kind of dedication, commitment, and effort that Argon has. That's a magnificent accomplishment!

Quote:
Cybertom: Keep up the effort you will achieve greatnes. What wa s the weight of you engine mount??
Made it out of wood and is a bit heavy
Regards ........ARGON

ARGON,
FABULOUS!! WOHA!!!



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Old 05-20-2007, 10:50 AM
  #45
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Really a great testament to doing the best you can.

Contruction update: I went over the hanger where I volunteer and I had one of the metal shop guys help me setup the brake so I could bend the T-6 bar I have for the cabane mounts. I also bent my own with a vice and soft face mallet (came close to being as good). Anyway, the setup comes close to what I thought it would be, but not quite. I am not happy using the airfoil tube I have - doesn't look right. So I went back and looked for the post you placed here Tom about the tubing vendor you found and I was not able to find it. SO if you have it handy and could post it again I'll see if I can contact them for the right type of tubing. So right now I'll scale out the cabanes with hardwood and add some rivet heads. The std cabane setup is already dialed in and I am itching to fly this Stearman.

So until then I am moving on to finishing the controls and getting servos and maybe some covering done on the tail surfaces. I made the decision to use Worldtex covering for my Stearman instead of Stitz lite. I did so because of the chemical and because I really don;t have the time and location to do that process. My next bipe I will do the Stitz lite and if things go right use a RCS215 on a 1/3 WACO or Stearman
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Old 05-20-2007, 10:55 AM
  #46
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Charsb,

That's the only thing I don't like about Stitts the MEK. I'll see if I can find the vendor. I know I put a link to the site in the old thread somewhere.

PS,

The old thread has been moved to the Giant Scale forum as well in case you were looking for it.
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Old 05-20-2007, 11:44 AM
  #47
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Charsb,

You want to get your Stearman completed but the cabane situation is slowing your progress. I have a possible alternative. If you mount the stock cabanes slightly inward of their stock locations they will protrude through the fuselage at the scale location.

Now the real concern is that if they ever get bent they can't be removed to be repaired or replaced as it is. What if you make a few small access holes in the top of the fuselage just big enough to fit the Allen screw and wrench through? This way they would be removable as is. Whatever covering you’re using could conceal the holes. They are there "just in case" you have a problem.

Another option is to make small access panels on top of the fuselage that snap in place. This would give you easy access to the cabane screws once the center wing section was removed. You can even give them a scale look.
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Old 05-21-2007, 04:07 PM
  #48
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Great ideas Tom! I think I could go for the access hatch. Onto an idea. I am going to somewhat do like you Tom on the engine mount except I will be using engine standoffs. I am comfortable enough now after seeing them on large 200cc gassers and they hold, so my 70cc smooth as silk radial should be no problem. I am sure I can get a set made that has the 3 down and 3 left, if not I can grind.

Okay, back to work...
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Old 07-17-2007, 09:39 PM
  #49
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

Flair Models Limited PT-17 STEARMAN BACK IN PRODUCTION!!!

I just recieved this email message from Dave of Radical RC.
Quote:
Yes, the PT-17 Stearman is in production now! I'll put you on our list to notify you when we've got some
Radical RC
5339 Huberville Ave
Dayton, OH 45431-1250
USA
#937-256-7727 Voice (M-F 9-5)
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Old 07-26-2007, 04:24 PM
  #50
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Default RE: Flair 1/4 Scale PT17/Stearman Build

[link]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oFECKaZ_3oE[/link]

Good Sterman ride video. Actually shows some details of turnbuckles and other interesting things.
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