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Electric B-17?

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Old 12-17-2013, 03:53 AM
  #26
iFLYrc_Vic
 
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Keep up the good work!
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Old 12-22-2013, 01:22 PM
  #27
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Nice looking my friend and I have started on an old Cleveland Models kit of the B-17G and hope to post info on the build after we get some idea of the motor requirements and such to determine weight.

Randy
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Old 12-23-2013, 06:09 AM
  #28
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What size is the cleveland models b-17 that you are building? I know they had a few different sizes...
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Old 12-23-2013, 07:13 AM
  #29
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77.25" ws or 1/16 scale. Trying to determine needed power. The original used class C engines to fly and it was only covered in silkspan no planking.

Randy
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Old 12-23-2013, 12:30 PM
  #30
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Hope you are scratch building! those kits are a gold mine, everything I've read says to copy the plans and tuck the kit away. I was watching a Cleveland Models b-17 on ebay a while ago, they go for some insane $$
as an example….
http://www.oldmodelkits.com/index.php?detail=13327


I've settled into using E-Flite power 15's for my model. They can put out 475 Watts of power, so 4 of those is 1900 watts, if I hit 11lbs which is my target that is 172 Watts/lb which is way more than I'll need. Way way more. way way way way… you get the idea. I could have probably gotten by with the power 10s even on this plane at 11 lbs,

To give you an idea, as the plane sits right now the body weighs 5.5lbs I believe.. its been a while since I measured. the question for you is how much is the buildup going to weigh, as the rest of it.. radio, landing gear, finishing supplies, engines, batteries etc are all going to more or less weigh the same.

The smaller your motors, the less battery you need, the less the plane weighs… ( the smaller the motors you need… ) its a bit of a circle, but the battery weight is significant in a plane like this and is going to be the main challenge.
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Old 02-14-2014, 12:35 PM
  #31
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ok.... we need some updates!

1... if you are going to order flite-metal.... order it a year before you need it. Ordered in October, arrived in January...nuff said. Glad I got the product, but they have probably lost a future customer.

2. The first step here was to decide how I was going to control the control surfaces and motors, and get that setup in place. I decided to go with HS-85MG servos for the ailerons, 1 mounted in each wing. The initial design had the ailerons powered from the center section by 1 servo.. however the friction, possibly from corrosion over the years, made this setup a bit stiff... I chose to pull it out and put in some electrical wires through the tubes to connect up to the servos....



we also pulled out the old routing for controls to the throttles... and replaced them with electrical cables for the ESC's and retracts....



this wing was a trial run so I opened it up a bit more than I wanted to ... The next one should be be cutup a bit less... overall though not a big deal, some 3/32" balsa and a bit of fiberglass cloth and you'll never be able to tell...




The big thing I'm trying to decide right now is battery location... whether to put 2 batteries in the outer pod and route between the two, or 1 in each pod. Its a bit tough because the max length I can fit here is 125mm... which limits me to about 2200ma batteries, but I can fit 2 in each pod. Right now I'm leaning towards having 2 batteries in each outer pod and routing between the two.. that will leave room for retracts in the center.. also cuts down a bit on weight since I would have smaller batteries overall.


next up... finishing up the mechanicals on this, and then get to priming.
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Old 02-26-2014, 06:35 PM
  #32
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I just picked up a Royal B-17 that was started by someone that did not know what they were doing, I will be going electric, I'm finalizing my set up now.

I would highly recommend that you put the batteries in the fuselage, you will probably need a bunch of nose weight, it would be a shame to add a bunch of lead when you have those batteries. 2200mAh is not enough, you will want flight time, you need 5000mAh. Heavy outer wing panels will hurt the performance of the plane. You will hear a lot about keeping wires short, but I've not noticed problems with this. A guy on here built a 14ft Spruce Goose and he put all the batteries in the nose along with the ESC's! Those were some LONG wires!

I will be making my nose glass area removable, just dowel and magnets to hold it and the ESC's will be in the wing saddle area.

It's going to take some time for me to catch up with you, so I will watch your progress.

Luke
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Old 02-27-2014, 07:41 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dionysusbacchus View Post
I just picked up a Royal B-17 that was started by someone that did not know what they were doing, I will be going electric, I'm finalizing my set up now.

I would highly recommend that you put the batteries in the fuselage, you will probably need a bunch of nose weight, it would be a shame to add a bunch of lead when you have those batteries. 2200mAh is not enough, you will want flight time, you need 5000mAh. Heavy outer wing panels will hurt the performance of the plane. You will hear a lot about keeping wires short, but I've not noticed problems with this. A guy on here built a 14ft Spruce Goose and he put all the batteries in the nose along with the ESC's! Those were some LONG wires!

I will be making my nose glass area removable, just dowel and magnets to hold it and the ESC's will be in the wing saddle area.

It's going to take some time for me to catch up with you, so I will watch your progress.

Luke
Glad to hear someone working out the same problems as I am.... A number of the comments you've made I've actually thought through quite a bit

e-flite power 15 + 2200mah battery at 12000 rpm running for 8 minutes pulled about 40% of the battery. So the 2600mah battery should give me 10 minute flights easily.
note: i'm using 4 batteries, one for each motor. Why? 2 2600mah batteries weigh less than 1 5000mah battery. They are also a much easier fit in the plane... having the plane already built, I've tried to fit 5000mah batteries in the nose... I think you'll find it not an easy task... doable... but not easy. It really depends on where you are in the build. For me there is significant surgery needed there. it also cuts down on detail possible in the nose area.

As an example, I don't have a 5000mah available, but trying to fit the significantly smaller( less than half size 2200mah battery ) in the nose, it fits, but gives you an idea of how tight the space is. It opens up further down in the fuselage, but that opening is a bit tight.



Performance: its a bomber.... not really worried about roll rate....I don't know what else to say here other than you are right in that it will hurt performance, but I'm not sure it will matter due to the type of plane it is.

As for weight....I don't add weight. the nacelles that house the batteries motors and retracts are all forward of the CG as it is. I'm waiting on 2 batteries and the retracts to show up today/tomorrow and once I have those the plane will be put on the CG machine and we will sort that out before much more happens. I'll re-address this point once the bomber is on the CG machine.... You may be 100% correct....I think I can get all the components to work in the locations I want... The tail was built extremely light on this particular plane ( thanks dad ... ) so I think we'll be able to manage, but we shall see. regardless, weight won't be added.
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:14 AM
  #34
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I got two 4S 5000mAh packs under the cockpit, there are two options here. If you don't like hatches you can use arming plugs, hook everything up, bolt on the wing and when you are ready to fly you just install the plugs and the plane is ready to go. I did this with my Royal Corsair because it was originally glow and I did not want to add hatches to it. Next option would be to add a hatch on the bottom of the nose, not as convenient but it would be hidden while on the ground.

I don't like your setup, but it's your plane, I was just offering my opinion.

I made the arming pin myself. My finished 1/8 Royal Corsair. I'm going to use one battery for the outer motors and one battery for the inner motors, ESC will be in the wing saddle.
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:13 PM
  #35
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opinions are good...

question, do you worry about airflow over the batteries/ESC's with that setup at all? You have the potential to be pulling 70 amps or so from each battery, I'd think that might get warm.

I should be able to balance the plane in the next week or so here. that will really define a lot in terms of where things like batteries go. if the nacelle batteries don't work, we'll have to change it... I think they'll work though, its less weight than the centralized setup, its less weight that the veco .19 engines they replace as well. and with the hatches already existing it makes it really easy to gain access to the batteries without modification of the frame in order to remove them for charging....
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Old 02-27-2014, 12:18 PM
  #36
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I have a corsair too....

:-P


for my kiddo...
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:19 PM
  #37
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I've run a few of the EDF foam planes and learned some about cooling. The Dynam Me-262 has everything in the fuselage and stock it had no cooling holes, I just opened the gun holes and cut a small hole in the bottom of the fuselage behind the wing. Prop planes are much less demanding on batteries and ESC's, although cooling air is good. Most have a hole of some kind in the rear fuselage area and a small intake in the nose so that air moves through the plane. I may take a window out of the nose "glass" so air moves through the fuselage or just make a small intake in the bottom.

What plastic parts do you have for this plane, I have the cockpit kit but not the superchargers? I vacuum form plastic parts and I could make my own, but if you have some uncut pieces I could copy them and send you a new set.
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:41 PM
  #38
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Dionysusbacchus:Still looking for a canopy set for my Royal B25 Mitchell. Won't ley my pm's go through to you. uncle_fuzz@yahoo.com

Thanks
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Old 02-27-2014, 04:51 PM
  #39
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B-25 canopy set:

http://www.microtechnics.eu/liste.ph...at=7&langue=en

If you email this guy he will take paypal, otherwise the European standard is to do wire transfers. This is where I get the original cockpit kit for the B-17 from. He seems like a stand up guy and I'd order from him again. Parts arrived very quickly and packaged well.
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Old 02-27-2014, 05:53 PM
  #40
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Uncle Fuzz I like you! I think I can do better than $40 for a canopy set, I'll shoot you an email.

Mattnew, I have an obsession with these old kits, so I have accumulated most of the cockpit kits and parts and made molds so I can reproduce them. I've just now added the B-17F to that list, except for the superchargers, I don't have those.
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Old 02-28-2014, 05:18 AM
  #41
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Interesting...

more questions :-)

For the B-17F, which canopy set do you have? There is an early/late version...
Example nose: Later version on left, Early version on Right


I'm interested in getting my hands on another "early" version set of canopies, and a set of fiberglass cowls. Fiberglass specialties sells the cowls, but its $60 for 4 tiny cowls.... seems overkill.

As for the superchargers. No reference to them in the instructions, no reference to them on the plans that I can see... my 2 detail kits cockpit/canopies don't have them included and I can find no reference to them online...leading me to believe they may be a detail left off this kit as it was an early royal design... It would be a great detail to add ... I'd love to have them.. but I have no source to pass on to you for them.....hmmmm
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Old 02-28-2014, 05:22 AM
  #42
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I've been collecting the plans for the old royal kits. I stumbled across an untouched royal p-38 last year for $100 that I couldn't pass up as well, that sitting under my bench waiting for me to find some time... likely after this B-17 is done.

That corsair is beautifully done... I'd love to have a "real" corsair in my fleet. Someday... I have a few skills I need to learn build-wise before I get to that level. I've been building for ~20 years but its only the last 2-3 I've started learning how to work on scale details and some of the finer "artistic" aspects of the hobby.
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Old 02-28-2014, 06:42 AM
  #43
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I am no expert on the B-17, but looking at some books I have it appears to me that the nose glass on the left is the very early version from what I can tell it was on the B-17D and the B-17E. The nose glass on the right with no frames looks like it was on the B-17G. None of the nose pieces in the kit resemble the B-17F. I didn't want to get into the scale lines of this thing to much, it's not big enough or scale enough, I'm afraid that if I look to closely things will start to pop out and I won't finish it! I like the looks of the B-17F, and it would not be a problem for me to make a proper shape clear nose glass. I'll see if I can get a good picture of the superchargers and I'll vacuum form a set out of .015 styrene.

One of my cowls has been cut for a slimer, so I was going to vacuum form over one with .040 styrene and use that as a mold to lay up my own cowls, I'll let you know how it turns out.

Notice the shape of the F nose, very nice. This is the early fort that had all the frames on the nose glass.

Thanks for the compliments on my Corsair, it was scratch built from Royal plans and took a year to finish. I've been building scale models for some time now!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTyzDDl72h0

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattnew View Post
Interesting...

more questions :-)

For the B-17F, which canopy set do you have? There is an early/late version...
Example nose: Later version on left, Early version on Right


I'm interested in getting my hands on another "early" version set of canopies, and a set of fiberglass cowls. Fiberglass specialties sells the cowls, but its $60 for 4 tiny cowls.... seems overkill.

As for the superchargers. No reference to them in the instructions, no reference to them on the plans that I can see... my 2 detail kits cockpit/canopies don't have them included and I can find no reference to them online...leading me to believe they may be a detail left off this kit as it was an early royal design... It would be a great detail to add ... I'd love to have them.. but I have no source to pass on to you for them.....hmmmm
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Old 02-28-2014, 11:57 AM
  #44
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Batteries came today... since you had my concerns peaked with tail heaviness we put it up on the CG machine..

batteries in
motors mounted
no flight surfaces, no ESC's no servos, no retracts no cowls....

We are within an inch of the plans, slightly tail heavy.
The retracts are all in front of the cg... I'll check it again once those are installed.
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Old 02-28-2014, 06:40 PM
  #45
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The problem with being in front or behind the CG is how far, that is the question. Items placed right in front of the CG are of little help, but I think you know that already! Just one ounce of paint on the tail will cost you!
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Old 03-03-2014, 06:29 AM
  #46
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1 oz 3 feet away = 3 oz 1 foot away in terms of balancing at the CG. So if I add an ounce at the tail, I need > 3 oz in the nose depending on where I have room to add weight...

and I'd really like to add in the detail of a tail retract... which will blow all of this to hell... I'm trying to figure out the feasibility of batteries in the center, My current hangup is how to remove them for charging without taking the wing off...

Does anyone know where I can find soft ( flexible ) stranded 12 gauge wire? Lowes and Home Depot sell stranded wire but it is very stiff.
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Old 04-11-2014, 06:27 AM
  #47
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seems to be a good solid plane! mine is soon to be built... do you have any interest in other marutaka/royal kits?
I'm going to school for 3d cad and machining hoping to replicate the old kit line some day.
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Old 04-16-2014, 10:15 AM
  #48
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In no particular order.... first attempts with flite-metal





quick hit thoughts...
- its flexible... compound curves aren't really that hard to do
- its softer than "reynolds wrap" which might make it easier to work with than typical aluminum foil ...
- its thicker than "reynolds wrap".. it might be due to the adhesive,
- it goes on pretty quickly... definitely not hard to do. Just requires patience... and lots of tape. I'm using a couple kinds of tape right now, blue painters, 3m fine line, and electrical depending on the surface....
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Old 04-16-2014, 10:17 AM
  #49
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as for the scratches in picture 2... sanding hasn't started yet, all of those will be sanded out/burnished out and will be invisible... unless they aren't... in which case this is the bottom!
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Old 04-29-2014, 06:22 AM
  #50
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right now I'm using a combination of two different types of aluminum on the plane. for big sheets I'm using the flite metal to get the coverage, for smaller areas and compound curves the "other" stuff. Once buffed they are indistinguishable. While I am liking how the flite metal goes on and how it looks... one of these is $10, the other is $150....one of these is thinner/lighter ( hint: not flite metal )... one of these is softer...

ah well.. they both look great, lesson learned for future projects







Here is a good before/after shot of the buffing with a scotch brite pad... when it goes on it goes on like the panels you see on the right side...very shiny... once you hit it with a scotch brite pad though it loses its sheen and looks much more like a metal finish. Very cool
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