Glow to Electric Conversions Discuss glow/gas conversion to electric here.

4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

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Old 08-31-2004, 07:47 PM
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Magna
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Default 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Hi all

Thinking of doing a project with 40-60 size conversion. Type of plane most likely Extra/Giles/Cap/Velox

I have power pack from 18-20GP3300 pack. No lipo for me yet.

Pls share your details ie AUW, plane, loading, rpm, amp, prop etc.

As I read greg project with the Extra, he get good acro with 4120 and will be extreme with 4130. Greg, do you mean at same cell count and prop? You did mentioned that in one of your conversion when you move to 4130, the power gain is very very satisfying. Can you share more details ie rpm, amp,volt, prop etc.
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Old 08-31-2004, 09:48 PM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

If you were to swap out a 4120 and put a 4130 in its place without changing anything else, performance would DECREASE.

Take a look at the RPM/Volt ratings for both motors. The 4120/18 has an RPM/Volt rating of 510, while the 4130/16 has an RPM/Volt rating of 390. This means for every Volt applied to the motor, the 4120/18 will turn the prop 510 RPMs faster, while the 4130/16 will only turn it 390 RPMs faster.

If you were to switch to a 4130 from a 4120, you would need to rework the power system, add some cells, and/or use a larger prop.

20 cells and the 4130/16 make for a good .60-size glow powerplant. Just prop for 40 Amps from the tables at www.modelmotors.cz.
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Old 09-01-2004, 12:47 AM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

That power range is what I'm anticipating. Planning to use the CC Phoenix 60 for this.
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Old 09-01-2004, 09:30 AM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Magna,

Not mentioned in my review is that the power increase from the 4120/14 to the 4130/16 also comes from a cell count increase. Use 14-cells (4s Lithium) for the 4120 and 20-cells (6s Lithium) for the 4130. The prop size can remain the same or change, if needed.

Check out the setup in my new [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/%22Super%22_Skylark_e%2DConversion/m_2126230/tm.htm]Super Skylark[/link] thread.
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Old 09-16-2004, 10:16 PM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Magna,
Here's something else you should consider.
Since you're attempting to reuse the 18 - 20 3300 mAh cell pack, the AXI 4210/14 is only rated for up to 16 cells which narrows your choice to the 4120/18 (rated to 20 cells) or the 4130 series motors which are rated for up to 30 cells.
This is purely subjective but I would look at it this way. If the plane calls for a 40 - 50 glow, the 4120/18 (in your case) is comparable, however, a plane that calls for a 60 - 90 glow will suggest a 4130 AXI. Again, this is subjective and depends on several variables. In my experience, I have found myself confused at times. Worse yet, if you ask 10 people the same question, you sometimes get 10 different answers.
The AXI's are good motors. I have a 4120/14 in my 8 lbs, 81" Proctor Antic with a 950 Square Inch wing area and it flies every bit as good as it did with a 60 glow engine.
Good luck on your choice.
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Old 09-17-2004, 07:43 AM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

...and those 10 different answers would probably all be correct! That's the beauty, and the bane, of electrics. You've got so many choices and so many "right" answers, that it can just overwhelm you. Heck, just within the 41XX series of motors, you have two, maybe three, that would be suitable to fly a generic .60-size sport plane on 20 cells, along with at least two or three possible props for each motor! Imagine if we were talking about Hacker or Mega motors... With a gearbox in the mix, you're talking about hundreds of viable combinations. [X(]

To help make your decision easier in these situations, go for the largest propeller that will fit on the plane without creating ground clearance issues. Heck, extend the landing gear if you're not particular.
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Old 09-17-2004, 08:54 AM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

I think the CC 60 is good only up to 20 cells. I have the CC80 and was planning on using it on a 4130/20 till I saw that the 4130 will go up to 30 cells and the CC 80 will only go to 20. So I also got the 77 ESC package deal......if you want call $300 a deal I'll use the 80 on my HiMaxx 3618/4500.
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Old 09-17-2004, 09:30 AM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Here's another suggestion: Don't entirely base your choice around a battery. Consider your plane size, wingspan, wing area, flying weight and importantly the type of flying YOU prefer. Obviously 3D flying with all-out vertical performance dictates some serious power. I personally think if you want a 3D plane, then buy one that's built for that purpose. An Extra, Giles or Cap are great aerobatic planes that require moderate power. 80 - 100 watts per pound is a general rule with the low end for moderate performance. There's also a point of diminishing return, loads of power means lots of motor and battery and weight! I do not like heavily wing-loaded airplanes. (over 26 oz/sf)
Let us know what you decide.
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Old 09-17-2004, 11:56 AM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

One of Hobby Lobby's AXi combos is comparable in cost to a high-end 4-stroke glow engine to power the same plane. It's downright reasonable when you look at it that way
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Old 09-17-2004, 10:23 PM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

ORIGINAL: Matt Kirsch

One of Hobby Lobby's AXi combos is comparable in cost to a high-end 4-stroke glow engine to power the same plane. It's downright reasonable when you look at it that way
And it sure don't shake the airframe apart like a 4 stroker!!
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Old 09-21-2004, 12:47 AM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Having a scale plane for acro and 3d is a special feeling Of course the real thing will never 3D as well as RC, but I did see some pilot trying so.

For simple 3D, I can take easy route with WM Fun World EP, or the Diablo 3D, or even the TT Spirit and the Pilot Seduction series. But bird like Extra or Velox have a special look. Then again none of them are purpose built for electric.

At this stage, I may just get the WM Fun World since it is easily available. But again which will you go for is you can have WM Velox 60 for US170 and the Funworld for US110?

I have a mega 22/30/3 with MEC super or monsterbox. JRB at ezone converted the Velox with 20 cell on Mega 30/3 on Superbox with 18x10 prop. Power is about 850w for 10 lbs plane. He seems to be happy. At 40 amp, you can easily have 6-7 mins flight.
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Old 10-01-2004, 10:49 PM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

I am working on the Hangar 9 Corsair and plan on installing the AXI 4130-16 in it like Greg Covey did. I also plan to use Lithium batts in the neighborhood of 6S2P like two ThunderPower 4200 mah's in series. David at Hobby-Lobby indicated it should fly like 1/4 to 1/3 more power than a Saito 100 4-stroke. I don't claim to understand all the electric and Li-Po batts, but I sure like the idea of no fuel mess, no motor break in or sputter and die, no $21.00 to $32.00 per gallon of fuel per week or two and enough power to almost pull the tail off when you throttle up in the pits. The beauty of "just turn on the switch and fly" really turns my prop shaft. If anyone has any tips for me, using this set up, I would sure appreciate the help!

Thanks!

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Old 10-02-2004, 09:33 AM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Hope this is of help to the thread.

I have been using Axi motors for two years now in my 65" Hanger 9 Mustang, last year with 20 NiMh cells and this year with the excellent Thunder Power LiPo cells.

New for this year is my Axi powered Hanger 9 Corsair...superb so far!


The hardware below should work for similar 8-9lb airframes:

65" Hanger 9 Corsair (65" Hanger 9 Mustang)

9lbs flying weight (8-1/2lb Mustang)

5V UBEC (one for the Rx, one for the retracts) (6V for Mustang)

Axi 4130/16 motor, radial mount

Jeti Advance 75-3P ESC

(Hard timing, no brake)

Thunder Power 6Ah 6s3p LiPo cells

(As two, 6Ah 3s3p in series)

15x12 APC wide blade Pattern prop (15x12 APC Pattern prop for Mustang)

6600rpm @ 47A (6800 @ 43A)

9lbs static thrust (8-1/2lbs static thrust)

75mph pitch speed (77mph pitch speed)


An article about the Mustangs conversion and its power train development will appear in Traplets QEFI magazine to be followed by a review of the EP converted Corsair.


Cheers,

Pete Nicholson


[img] (Photo by Gordon Whitehead)
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Old 10-02-2004, 11:03 AM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Hi Pete

I thought the guys might like to drool at your planes in the air too [8D]

What a great afternoon we had on Thursday

Gordon
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Old 10-02-2004, 01:36 PM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Hey Gordon and Pete,

Are 2 ThunderPower 4200mah batts in series 6S2P or 6S3P?

Also, I noticed on your Corsairs that neither of you used the small, covered wood antenna that comes with the Corsair. Just curious as to why nobody uses that.

Gordon, I noticed that you put your antenna up through the top and ran it to the vertical stabilizer. It looks good there, too. Did you have to drill a hole to get it there? Oh, and yes, I was drooling on both pics of the Corsair!

Thanks Guys!

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Old 10-02-2004, 02:22 PM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Hi FT

They are Pete's planes, not mine

Boy but they fly REALLY impressively, especially in Pete's hands. The sound is beautiful and soothing, without any of that 'orrid purple-power gear whine. Ideal for sport scale.

Gordon
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Old 10-02-2004, 04:19 PM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Hi Gordon!

Yes, brilliant day. Really enjoyed it. THANKS.


FlyinTango

Both the Mustang and Corsair use the same 3S3P 6000mAh packs, two in series to give 6S3P.

Just checked and can find no reference in the manual to the antenna fixing. I left it off as it would be very vulnerable to being broken off....and it would add drag.

The redundant antenna should make an ideal epoxy mixing stick!

On the Corsair I had the aerial originally flush with the top of the fuselage but had a few glitches on the range checks, so moved it to the rudder. I just drilled a hole through the upper decking and bushed it with a short piece of plastic snake tubing.


Pete.
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Old 10-03-2004, 05:48 PM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Hey Pete,

How exactly do you arrive at 6000 mah? I realize that could be a dumb question, but I am new to the sport and really new to Lithium batteries. I was told two of the 4200 mah ThunderPower batteries wired in series would be what I needed for the Corsair with the AXI 4130-16 motor with an APC 15x8 prop. If I wired the two batteries in series, wouldn't that still be just 4200 mah? Sorry about being so confused! I don't really understand the 6S2P or 6S3P or what makes them up or what the difference is. I do understand that 6000 mah is more power than 4200 mah. If it is too much trouble to explain, please don't feel obligated. Nobody in the circles I travel in knows how to explain it, either.

I just want my Corsair to fly well, with more power available to the plane than the plane would ever require for scale flying and loops, snap rolls, 4-point rolls, immelmann turns, S turns, etc. If you can explain how to get 6000 mah and what makes 6S3P and tell me that my plane will fly well with it and a 60 amp esc and an ultimate BEC, I would greatly appreciate your help. I am still in the building phase, but I'm almost ready to start installing radio and motor items. I agree with your answer about making the wooden antenna a high class mixing stick. Thank you so much for all your help.

Tango
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Old 10-03-2004, 10:26 PM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Tango,

Lithium cells are arranged into packs either in Series (+ to - which increases voltage) or in Parallel (+ to + and - to - which increases power ie, amperage). Lithium cells cal also be arranged in combinations as well. the 3S3P refers to 3 Series, 3 Parallel meaning 3 cells wired in series (3.7 volts x 3, or 11.1 volts nominal) and then 3 of those packs are wired in parallel (2100 x 3, or 6300 Mah) to complete the pack.

You can always take the 2 numbers and multiply them to get the total cell count of a pack. 5S4P (Thunder Power's largest pack) has 20 individual LiPo cells inside. Likewise, a 3S3P would have 9 total cells. This really doesn't mean anything, its' the way they are wired inside that matters, I only mentioned it as a point of interest.

Since Thunder Power doesn't make a 6SxP pack, people buy 2 3SxP (I'm using x as a variable, it could be 1, 2, 3 or 4) and wire the PACKS in series. See, the cells inside are run in series or parallel but you can also add to the mix by running the entire pack in series or parallel with another pack!

Sound confusing? It really isn't, you'll get the hang of it in no-time...

Jack
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Old 10-03-2004, 10:49 PM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Tango,
Allow me to interject. I just finished building a Graupner Extra300. It’s powered with two 6000 mAh Thunder Power LiPo’s. There’s really nothing to get confused about. Yes, you are right, if you have two 4200 mAh packs wired is series then you would have a 4200 mAh with twice the voltage. The “P” means how many cells are in parallel and the “S” means how many are in series. For example, one of my TP6000 is 3S3P (three cells in series and three cells in parallel for a total of nine cells). Multiply the 3S and 3P together for a total of 9 cells. You know that each cell is always a nominal 3.7 volts, so to determine your voltage simply multiply the “S” number by 3.7 to determine the pack voltage. NOTE: most new packs are labeled with a “Charge As” number. In my case they’re labeled “Charge as a 3 cells”. This is important if your charger has jumpers to set the charge voltage. Now, the “P” value is how many cells in the pack ( or your multi-pack configuration) are wired in parallel. Again, just looking at a single pack, if it’s rated at 4200 mAh and let’s say the “P” number is 3 then each LiPo cell is 1400 mAh (4200 divided by the “P” number).
Now, if you took two of your 3S2P (6 cells) packs and wired them in series you would have a 6S2P configuration, whereas if you wired them in parallel then you would have a 3S4P. Do the “P” x “S” multiplication and you see they both have 12 cells.
I.E. Two 4200mAh 3S2P packs wired in series would be 6S (22.2 volts) and 2P (4200 mAh’s). The same two packs wired in parallel would be 3S (11.1 volts) and 4P (8400 mAh’s). I hope this clarifies the issue a little.

As far as your power question. There are limitations to how much a LiPo will “put out”. You need to consider the power or wattage your motor/prop setup will “consume”. There are several variables that determine this. Motor type, motor windings, prop size, spinner size, ESC and motor efficiency, etc. You may need to try your 4200 mAh pack and have someone put an amp meter on it to determine how much your motor is drawing. Assuming your ESC can handle the draw, remember most LiPo’s can handle up to 10 - 12C bursts, meaning 10 times their rated capacity. (4200 mAh= 4.2 Ah) X 10 = 42 amps, whereas a 6000 mAh pack can put out 60 amp bursts. The way to understand this is simple, remember the “mAh” is the milliamps per hour rating. Let’s say it was 6000mAh, or 6000 miliamps per hour or 6 amps per hour or 12 amps per 30 minutes, or 24 amps per 15 minutes, etc etc, conceivably if there were no limitations or loss we could calculate this down to an estimated 384 amps in ¾ seconds and even greater. On paper this may work but in reality it does not. This is well beyond the 10C or 12C rating of the 6000 mAh LiPo. I’m sure there’s an engineering term for this.

In some cases the 4200 mAh pack may give you am 8 minute flight where the 6000 mAh pack may produce a 10 or 12 minute flight. Have the amperage tested and go from there.

Good Luck
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Old 10-03-2004, 11:42 PM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

hey guys,

what axi motor would you reccomend for my seduction wildstyle so that i have a 1.5:1 hrust to wheight ratio for hovering. the plane weighs around 4.6 pounds.
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Old 10-04-2004, 07:24 AM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Chris,
Assuming the 4.6 lbs is empty weight, your best bet for all out 3D will be the 4130/16
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Old 10-04-2004, 01:03 PM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Hi Tango,

It looks like you already have had help from other RCU members on understanding LiPo cells...!

This site has a clear description too:

http://www.*********.org/lithium_bat...eakthrough.htm

You are going to enjoy the Corsair!

Pete.
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Old 10-05-2004, 03:10 AM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Pete

Saw your P-51 on the QEFI, nice!
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Old 10-05-2004, 07:02 PM
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Default RE: 4120 vs 4130: Your project experience

Hey Everyone,

Thank you all for all your help with the Lithium Battery knowledge. I really do appreciate all the responses. Hopefully, I will be able to download it into my pea size gray matter, to make it so I can understand it enough to make my Corsair fly better than it would with a Saito 100 gas motor.

I can't tell you enough how wonderful I think it is to have you guys available for me to ask questions and reap the benefits of your great knowlege. Thank you all so very much!!!

Tango
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