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Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

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Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Old 01-26-2006, 09:55 PM
  #51  
lazyboyflyer
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

WOW! Real nice, clean installation. I was wondering how you were going to mount the ESC's, I like it!!!!!!!!
Old 02-01-2006, 06:56 AM
  #52  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Greg, are you considering using the 4800 ma cells?

Kevin
Old 02-01-2006, 12:15 PM
  #53  
Greg Covey
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Kevin,

Yes. I will initially use two packs of 10s2p Kokam 2100mAh (20C) cells (the original "Pop-Tart" cells), one pack for each motor, rewired as BalancePro HD packs. I'll post a wiring diagram soon if I can ever catch up at work. It seems like my normal mode is buried lately.

If the 4200mAh capacity does not provide sufficient duration, I may upgrade to the new Kokam 4800mAh (20C) cells which can deliver 100amps. They should be available on the FMA site in 2-4 weeks in both Cellpro and BalancePro HD packs. Another new 1500mAh (20C) cell will be available at the same time as Cellpro packs.

My original plan to make a single 10s4p 8400mAh "super pack" was abandoned at the recommendation of Jeti. Our chief Enginner at FMA also confirmed that Jeti's suggestion had much merit. By using a separate pack for each motor, the noise is properly optically isolated so that each ESC can measure the position of its motor without getting interference.

Regards.
Old 02-01-2006, 12:59 PM
  #54  
Devin McGrath
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Interesting place to mount the ESC's
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Old 02-01-2006, 07:47 PM
  #55  
Greg Covey
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Copy cat! Actually, I can't remember who did it first. I do remember that mine was a field modification on a 100 degree day.

That thing still in one piece? If so, I think you should fly it another year and look to upgrade with Kokam 4800mAh cells. Both planes looked nice in the 2005 NEAT Fair video. Perhaps you can hover my Edge 540 for the 2006 video.

Old 02-01-2006, 07:53 PM
  #56  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Devin,

Is that a picture of the Hangar 9 Funtana 90?

Al
Old 02-01-2006, 08:25 PM
  #57  
Devin McGrath
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Actualy greg now that you mention that I do remember the single Jeti 90 amp ESC in the bottom of your cowl but I never really thought about it.... Yours was first !

Al Yes that’s my Funtana 90 electrified !

Greg I was considering making a few changes and flying it again before ruling it out but the set up might go into my dads Yak for A "real glow to electric conversion" That would need 4800's to get good results. if we decide against that then it may go into a Showtime 4D I have heard good things about it and think it would be a good candidate for the set up. It would even sneak by with the 3200 packs although 4800's would be much better. After all we need one glow plane (The Yak)! Everything else will be electric! I am sure your Edge will be doing some hovering in the NEAT video next year!
Old 02-04-2006, 05:29 PM
  #58  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

I tested the motor/ESC wiring today on both motors and created a block diagram for the BalancePro HD system. Both ESCs programmed and worked fine by doing one at a time. It also allowed me to test the motor direction before taping up the connectors.

I used the following setup on my Jeti Advance PLUS Programming Card:
[ul][*] Li-XX[*] Low Cut-off[*] Slow down[*] Brake OFF[*] High Timing for Outrunners[*] Linear Throttle (all my pilots hate the ESC Log throttle setting)
[/ul]

The next step is to re-wired my exisitng 2100mAh packs for BalancePro HD.
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Old 02-16-2006, 09:42 PM
  #59  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Greg
What connectors did you use to hook up the ESC to the motor? I can't find any that is rated for 90 amps.
Thanks
David
Old 02-16-2006, 09:56 PM
  #60  
lazyboyflyer
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

I soldered mine together, no connectors, then shrinkwrap. I think, the best way to deal with high current.
Old 02-17-2006, 08:10 AM
  #61  
Darrell B.
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

David,
Check out the connectors on this page. They are rated for 200 amps!!

http://www.neumotors.com/store/index.html

Darrell
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Old 02-17-2006, 08:26 AM
  #62  
Greg Covey
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

David,

I used the 3.5mm [link=http://www.hobby-lobby.com/connectors.htm]Jeti Gold Plated Connectors[/link] which are rated up to 70amps continuous and much higher for peak currents. The Edge 540 will fly nicely on one motor at 40-50amps and half that current on two motors.

The connectors at Neu Motors that Darrell posted look really nice as they are bigger and can accompodate thicker gauge wire.

Of course...now I have to buy some to check them out.
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Old 02-17-2006, 08:37 AM
  #63  
Darrell B.
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Greg,

Sorry for the temptation!

I have used the Trinity R minus gold battery car connectors for quite some time with good success. I believe that they are 3.5mm also.
I like the 5.5 because with all of the new large ESCs comming out I think that most of them will be using larger wire.

Darrell
Old 02-18-2006, 04:01 PM
  #64  
Greg Covey
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

I got bored today as it was a cold 17 degrees outside so I decided to dress my Edge 540 up while I wait for my BalancePro HD packs to arrive.
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Old 02-18-2006, 10:21 PM
  #65  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Outstanding project so far. Kudos to you and others like you for daring to walk barefoot on the cutting edge of electric R/C.

One thing troubles me a little, looking at that motor box. Are those few holes at the front going to allow sufficient ram air volume to reach the aft motor to keep it cool? Maybe the addition of some wedge-shaped scoops on the outside of the box would help force some more air back there and through the fuse for the batteries. That poor aft motor is blanked from almost all direct air flow as it appears now.

I worry about outrunners running too hot and tossing magnets or demagging at high temps/currents.

Of course, some people tell me I worry too much. [X(]

Rick
Old 02-18-2006, 11:18 PM
  #66  
algutkin
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Well Rick, you said it all. Walking on the cutting edge of technology.

Air holes weaken the structure, so it's give and take. In addition, the engines are bolted to 1/4 inch plywood. Even if it's solid hard wood, what is the sheer strength of 1/4 inch wood?

The wheel is re-invented with every new project. Hats off to the guys that do it, their trials and tribulations help us all. I can't wait to see that bird fly. If it stands up, it will open the door to giant scale 3D electric planes.

Al
Old 02-19-2006, 04:09 PM
  #67  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

You guys ask some valid questions. Here is my train of thought for those concerns.

The back of the motor box, once the firewall, has been removed. There are large air holes in the front directly in the air flow from the cowl openings and more on the side so some air movement will exist.

For normal flight, each motor will likely draw only 20-25amps so they will not produce any significant heat. Since the workload is shared between two motors and the plane is ridiculously overpowered, I expect little heating to occur.

If you watch the videos from either my "Part 2" review or the SKS NEAT Fair 2005 video, you will see that the Edge 540 was decently powered with only a single 5330 motor. Note that the video editor incorrectly said 4500 watts instead of 3500 watts but Tom Hunt got it right on the PA system in the background. The second motor power will only be needed on occasion for hovering and vertical pullouts. etc. For the most part, each motor will see only half the workload as before for normal flying and aerobatics.

Recall that my motor box is not just 1/4" plywood but 10 ply aircraft grade plywood. There is a huge difference. Aircraft grade plywood is like metal but without the weight which is why it is used in aircraft construction. The usage of special screwed in T-nuts does not weaken the wood around it like the normal prong type T-nuts.

I have a laser temperature probe that I can use on the motors during the test flights. I also will have the temperature strips on my BalancePro HD packs to see how hot they get after the flight. Temperature dots also come on the packs that trip during extreme temperatures above 160 degrees F and don't turn back like the strip will.

Now you guys got me all worked up for Springtime again!

Regards.
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Old 02-20-2006, 10:01 AM
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Greg:

Thanks for the knowledge on the wood. I have always worried about it, especially when my first Telemaster hit an obstructions and the first thing to go was the 1/4 inch solid wood mount. Live and learn.

Where do you guys get the aircraft grade plywood? Do you have to get it by mail order or does a local store carry it. Sounds like a stupid question, but I tried Home Depot and two local hobby stores. The hobby stores only sell balsa, so I settled for solid poplar and or oak at Home Depot.

Al
Old 02-20-2006, 05:00 PM
  #69  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Al,

Usually, the local hobby shops will carry SIG or Midwest brands. Tower hobbies sells the aircraft grade 1/8" birch plywood [link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0001p?&I=LXAS64&P=7]here[/link]. We glued two layers of 1/8" together for 10 ply which is stronger than the 5 ply 1/4" plywood.

[link=http://www2.towerhobbies.com/cgi-bin/wti0095p?FVPROFIL=++&FVSEARCH=plywood&FVPROFIL=++&search=Go]Index of Plywood[/link] at Tower Hobbies.

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Old 02-20-2006, 06:05 PM
  #70  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Thanks for info Greg:

PS. There is rumor going around that you are frozen solid in Rochester, to be thawed out in April. Any truth to that?


Al
Old 03-24-2006, 08:48 PM
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

OK Greg, I hope you have had a chance to fly this set-up, how about a flight report? Does this set-up work?????
Old 03-26-2006, 10:59 AM
  #72  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

double the power in one step, without any major weight increase is really cool! now get some video
Old 03-26-2006, 05:29 PM
  #73  
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

Hi guys,

If you are anxious to see the results, imagine how I must feel.

My BalancePro HD packs are ready but I am not certain if they were shipped to me or they are bringing them to the Toledo show on April 7th.

In the mean time, I have been pressured into changing my rudder servos by my expert 3D pilot, Devin McGrath. He showed me that Quique uses 3 rudder servos on a similar size plane so I relented to upgrading my setup to two rudder servos. The Hangar 9 Edge 540 is already designed to handle a dual push-pull setup (the second servo bay is merely covered up) and the new JR [link=http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products/Default.aspx?ProdID=JRPS8611A]DS8611a[/link] digital servo has 320oz/in. torque on 6v (which is my output setting on the Power Force Regulator). The dual rudder servo system will now provide 640oz/in! I also needed to order another JR Matchbox to keep the two rudder servos from fighting each other.

I'll post some photos when I install it.

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Old 04-10-2006, 12:55 PM
  #74  
Greg Covey
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

I'm back from Toledo in recuperation mode. Once rested, I'll finish up my Edge 540 project since I now have all the pieces. I shared a room with our sponsored 3D pilot, Devin McGrath and his Dad, Ron. Between early morning booth duty and the nightime events, I didn't get much sleep as Devin won the E-X Games and placed 11th in the final round of the ETOC competition. It was a great deal of fun!

I found some of the older JR 8611 digital servos so I bought 2 to have a spare for my Edge 540 just in case I needed it. My dual 8611 servo combination on a 6v supply will provide 520oz./in. torque on the rudder surface. Note that a JR Matchbox is required to keep the two servos from fighting each other and drawing excessive current. The Matchbox also allows for servo reversal so you don't need a special "reverse" servo. The pushbutton setup on the JR Matchbox is very convenient!

My batteries were brought to the Toledo show after being re-configured into 6s2p and 4s2p BalancePro HD packs. These are older Kokam 2100mAh (20C) cells that can really withstand some punishment at sustained 20C levels. They never sold well due to their weight and shape that we called "Pop Tarts" after the famed breakfast food. The cells were discontinued.

Each 10s configuration weighs 55oz for a total battery weight of 110oz or 6.9lbs. Every pack gets plugged into a BalancePro HD 6s Discharge Protection Module (DPM) with the optional LED/Speaker modules. The 6s and 4s Dean's Ultra connectors will plug into a Series Connector Module so their is a complete 10s power supply for each motor.

If the 4200mAh capacity (for each motor) is not enough flight time, I will then upgrade to our new 5AH cells that will be available in a month or two.
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Old 04-11-2006, 07:03 PM
  #75  
Greg Covey
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Default RE: Hangar 9 33% Edge 540 - Part 3

My receiver and servos no longer feed from one of the 4s flight packs to keep the two power systems as equal as possible. I now use a 2s 3200mAh BalancePro Lithium pack to feed the Power Force Regulator. The Dean's Ultra connector plugs right into the regulator and I can still balance the pack on every charge using the BalancePro 2s charger. Alternatively, a 2s Cellpro setup would work here as well.

My dual rudder servo project was started by removing the existing control horn and installing the threaded rod that also comes in the Hangar 9 (HAN3614) 8-32 Swivel Clevis Horn kit. It's a dual kit so you get two of everything and then a choice of threaded rods or screws. I also used a second Hangar 9 (HAN3557) Titanium Pro-Link 4-40 x 5" and another (HAN3616) 4-40 HD Ball Link.

I realized that I was missing a long 30" JR HD extension cable to connect the new servo to the new Matchbox so I'll be visiting my local hobby shop (Performance Hobbies) tomorrow so I can complete the job and move onto battery pack installation.
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