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UMS Evolution Radial Care and Operation

Old 11-03-2014, 11:13 AM
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chorner
 
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Hey guys I recently purchased one of the Evo 7-77 engines; damn cool! I want to make sure it's taken care of properly (am very 'anal' about keeping my stuff in mint condition) - and after looking through the entire thread, I have to wonder if anyone has tried to drill and tap their own crankcase breather nipple? That would surely help drain and fill the crankcase with after-run oils in a much easier and better way than lifting off the bloody rocker covers and using a small pump at the end of each flying session. That's a little TOO anal for me =) haha either that or I was thinking of running the engine dry, then injecting some oils through the fuel inlet and turning over the engine a handful of times.

Has to be a better way than the existing method...

Also I'm trying to find some solid numbers on the average flight time and what size fuel tank is recommended. I'm going to put this in a Hangar 9 60CC Corsair (love that plane!) and it comes with a 22ounce tank, but thinking of dropping in a 32ouncer for a more comfortable "safety" buffer to hit an easy 10-12 minute flight time.
Old 11-03-2014, 03:54 PM
  #1302  
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Originally Posted by chorner
Hey guys I recently purchased one of the Evo 7-77 engines; damn cool! I want to make sure it's taken care of properly (am very 'anal' about keeping my stuff in mint condition) - and after looking through the entire thread, I have to wonder if anyone has tried to drill and tap their own crankcase breather nipple? That would surely help drain and fill the crankcase with after-run oils in a much easier and better way than lifting off the bloody rocker covers and using a small pump at the end of each flying session. That's a little TOO anal for me =) haha either that or I was thinking of running the engine dry, then injecting some oils through the fuel inlet and turning over the engine a handful of times.

Has to be a better way than the existing method...

Also I'm trying to find some solid numbers on the average flight time and what size fuel tank is recommended. I'm going to put this in a Hangar 9 60CC Corsair (love that plane!) and it comes with a 22ounce tank, but thinking of dropping in a 32ouncer for a more comfortable "safety" buffer to hit an easy 10-12 minute flight time.
Do you think EVO 77 will fit inside that 60 size cowl?
Old 11-03-2014, 04:35 PM
  #1303  
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Isn't there a Horizon Corsair flying with the EVO 77? I believe there is.. It should fit.
Old 11-03-2014, 04:39 PM
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And a 24 oz tank is plenty once it's broken in ...
Old 11-03-2014, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Pull Up Now!
Do you think EVO 77 will fit inside that 60 size cowl?
It's not a .60 size, it's a 60CC 85" wingspan warbird. http://www.hangar-9.com/Products/Def...ProdID=HAN4760

More than enough room for the Evo 7-77.
Old 11-03-2014, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by chorner
It's not a .60 size, it's a 60CC 85" wingspan warbird. http://www.hangar-9.com/Products/Def...ProdID=HAN4760

More than enough room for the Evo 7-77.
yeah, I see that now! I guess getting that iphone 6+ didn't help me see any better!
Old 11-04-2014, 05:14 AM
  #1307  
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Chorner, You will need to take the engine completely apart to drill and tap the crankcase (timing chest). I am sure drillings and tappings would be destructive to the moving parts! The crankcase is also fuel distribution. The drains would need to be plugged or else they would greatly lean the mixture. Oil is not just added, it is drained to remove the corrosives too. Really, removing tappets is very easy. -Tom
Old 11-04-2014, 05:35 AM
  #1308  
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Hi Tom, thanks for the reply. Of course I would disassemble the engine first can you imagine randomly drilling into an engine? I would plan to tap the crankcase in the appropriate location and of course plug it while running and then unplug for draining and filling with after run oils etc. it's not a new idea clearly as more than a few other 4 strokes have these (OS Sirius comes to mind). Surprised this engine doesn't have it.

The reason I'm interested versus removing tappets (not difficult you're right, but there should be a better way) is also for convenience with the cowl left on after flying sessions. Just extend a crankcase drain/access with a plugged tube to the bottom of the plane and flush and fill with oil there. Much better and as long as you use enough after run to sufficiently coat the crankcase and let it breathe you should be good to go.
Old 11-04-2014, 07:16 PM
  #1309  
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Well, my curiosity got the better of me today. I wanted to find out if the con rod big ends had bushings or bearings....I popped off the rear cover, pulled the snap ring and removed a link pin, and there is neither! The pins run directly in the aluminum rod. The master rod has a big bearing in it.
At least now I know.

Cheers,
Dave.
Old 11-04-2014, 07:19 PM
  #1310  
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Thanks for the update. This is not welcome news to the gas conversion crowd.
Old 11-04-2014, 08:21 PM
  #1311  
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It's not the end of the world. I'll adjust my oil ratio to 25:1,
Adrian at CH is sending me an adapter and a couple of walbro carbs to try. At least I'll be able to get rid of the over rich condition we have with the glow carb.
I have a spare fuel pump for my moki, so will use that and see how it goes.

Cheers,
Dave.
Old 11-05-2014, 08:08 AM
  #1312  
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Good luck and please keep us informed! It will probably take some time for it to be known if the aluminum rod bearings will hold up. Unfortunately, if they do fail it will take other parts with it.
Old 11-06-2014, 06:46 PM
  #1313  
CH Ignitions
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Hello Gentleman,
I read the last couple pages in this thread and here I am to answer any questions.

I have a real battle on the final design. It is close to a Year now and I still do not know.
My big issue was the Boxes. As Dave got a real crud and NON CH standard....but have to start somewhere.
I got a good point...is to bulky...agree and noted. I found a company in California that will be able to make any size I need . It will be close to CH Aluminum folded boxes that Bill Carpenter made for the last 30+ Years.
Next year will be the 35th Year anniversary . With this in mind I will bring up a new and hope better website, the 5 7 and 9 CDI for Radial engines.
Evolution and MVVS engines direct replacement, some of the 3W with 2 magnets and 4 wire sensors that have 35 and 55 degree spacing. Replacements for the ROTO engines 35FS 85 and hope 170 FS, MOKI 150 and 180. Working on the
Moki 215 /400 . Also twin ignitions for the "v" engines with uneven fire or Inline. Also have CDI for the 4 cylinders OS320 and possible for IL300.
Will be a change on the current design, the box will be a little bit bigger to allow better Hi Voltage insulation, Had couple instances where insulation leak to ground.

That will be for next year...this year coming back to David's Engine.

Evo 7-77 or any of the radials that intake sucks from the crank case ....there is no good "pulse" that will be able to work the regular carburetor pump side.
I tried so many carbs ....found couple that will work but soon you will move the tank will die.
So the best option remained the original carb.
I had a "special encounter " with a 7-77 version that was marked PETROL and made by UMS and the carb looked like the one on GLOW version.
Was a join force task to develop a CDI for that. The magnets were mounted inside on the "cam rings" and moving 1/2 crank speed...a real 4 stroke.
When I map the magnets for software logic I did not liked the fact that they where inconsistent the angle in between was not equal and had more than 5 degree.
After seen that we decided to go on the 1:1 and use crank shaft and waste spark.
The first unit is running for a year now and that is in Norway ( Alfas)
Timing: it is using 8 Magnets.
7 are South and 1 North.
The North is placed in between cyl 7 and 1. After cyl #7 fire the north trigger another input and tells the CPU that OK I made a full rotation , I fire all and I am at this RPM and need to put X advance.....and this goes on and on.
The other option I had was to use 7 magnets 6S and 1 N ....but I did not wanted to make the N a 7 fire, reset, do the math etc....Could be done in software ...but I like to relay more on hardware .
I hope this will answer that question...and as you see I am not afraid to ...'' Let the cat out" If some one else comes with better logic...will be for the good of the hobby.
For those that wonders, Bill carpenter is still around and he is doing good as age and all others allow it.
Another comment was that is not cheap.

We have:
- 7 cyl CDI that works from 6v to 12v. 6 will be good if gasoline. 7.4v will be my recommendation to run on Gas and start for Glow.
- 7 1/4-32 Spark plugs
- NEW DESIGN PROP DRIVE that locks on to the shaft.
- Magnet ring
- Sensor Ring
- Timing kit.

On the PCB is Manually solder, all parts are manually assembled, and it takes me 3.5HR to make one.

I am open to price suggestions from you guys, what will be a fair price for everyone....for you to have and for me also to be able to get Gerber formula to my 4MO Kevin Oliver baby boy.
PLEASE, PM me or email at [email protected] , do not want the reply here to take the meaning of this thread.

Thank you all for supporting CH Ignitions over the years.

Adrian
Old 11-07-2014, 06:54 PM
  #1314  
chorner
 
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Adrian, do you plan to design a new magnet & sensor ring that is adjustable and screw mountable versus having to JB weld the sensor pickup wire onto the sensor ring? That combined with more compact ignition unit boxes would convert me over to using your CH ignitions system. That way customers can easily and reliably setup the units themselves without fail.

For everyone else... I've got a ~28-30lbs plane (the Hangar 9 60cc Corsair I mentioned in a previous post) and the Evo 7-77... I'm wondering what the best propellor is? I'd like as close to 1:1 thrust as possible with speeds of at least the 54-60mph range. Does this engine have the torque and HP to pull those kind of numbers? How fast is it turning 24x10 Xoar props for example? Would a 23x10 3 blade work and provide ~30lbs of thrust?
Old 11-08-2014, 04:34 AM
  #1315  
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Originally Posted by CH Ignitions
Hello Gentleman,
I read the last couple pages in this thread and here I am to answer any questions.

I have a real battle on the final design. It is close to a Year now and I still do not know.
My big issue was the Boxes. As Dave got a real crud and NON CH standard....but have to start somewhere.
I got a good point...is to bulky...agree and noted. I found a company in California that will be able to make any size I need . It will be close to CH Aluminum folded boxes that Bill Carpenter made for the last 30+ Years.
Next year will be the 35th Year anniversary . With this in mind I will bring up a new and hope better website, the 5 7 and 9 CDI for Radial engines.
Evolution and MVVS engines direct replacement, some of the 3W with 2 magnets and 4 wire sensors that have 35 and 55 degree spacing. Replacements for the ROTO engines 35FS 85 and hope 170 FS, MOKI 150 and 180. Working on the
Moki 215 /400 . Also twin ignitions for the "v" engines with uneven fire or Inline. Also have CDI for the 4 cylinders OS320 and possible for IL300.
Will be a change on the current design, the box will be a little bit bigger to allow better Hi Voltage insulation, Had couple instances where insulation leak to ground.

That will be for next year...this year coming back to David's Engine.

Evo 7-77 or any of the radials that intake sucks from the crank case ....there is no good "pulse" that will be able to work the regular carburetor pump side.
I tried so many carbs ....found couple that will work but soon you will move the tank will die.
So the best option remained the original carb.
I had a "special encounter " with a 7-77 version that was marked PETROL and made by UMS and the carb looked like the one on GLOW version.
Was a join force task to develop a CDI for that. The magnets were mounted inside on the "cam rings" and moving 1/2 crank speed...a real 4 stroke.
When I map the magnets for software logic I did not liked the fact that they where inconsistent the angle in between was not equal and had more than 5 degree.
After seen that we decided to go on the 1:1 and use crank shaft and waste spark.
The first unit is running for a year now and that is in Norway ( Alfas)
Timing: it is using 8 Magnets.
7 are South and 1 North.
The North is placed in between cyl 7 and 1. After cyl #7 fire the north trigger another input and tells the CPU that OK I made a full rotation , I fire all and I am at this RPM and need to put X advance.....and this goes on and on.
The other option I had was to use 7 magnets 6S and 1 N ....but I did not wanted to make the N a 7 fire, reset, do the math etc....Could be done in software ...but I like to relay more on hardware .
I hope this will answer that question...and as you see I am not afraid to ...'' Let the cat out" If some one else comes with better logic...will be for the good of the hobby.
For those that wonders, Bill carpenter is still around and he is doing good as age and all others allow it.
Another comment was that is not cheap.

We have:
- 7 cyl CDI that works from 6v to 12v. 6 will be good if gasoline. 7.4v will be my recommendation to run on Gas and start for Glow.
- 7 1/4-32 Spark plugs
- NEW DESIGN PROP DRIVE that locks on to the shaft.
- Magnet ring
- Sensor Ring
- Timing kit.

On the PCB is Manually solder, all parts are manually assembled, and it takes me 3.5HR to make one.

I am open to price suggestions from you guys, what will be a fair price for everyone....for you to have and for me also to be able to get Gerber formula to my 4MO Kevin Oliver baby boy.
PLEASE, PM me or email at [email protected] , do not want the reply here to take the meaning of this thread.

Thank you all for supporting CH Ignitions over the years.

Adrian
See pvt message
Old 11-08-2014, 05:12 AM
  #1316  
Maxam
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chorner, If you want that kind of performance get a DA 65. The ideal three blade prop is a 22x10 Xoar warbird prop. It is painted black. You will get the speeds but 1:1 thrust, no. -Tom
Old 11-08-2014, 06:08 AM
  #1317  
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Thanks for the info. Maxam. What sort of numbers are 2 blade 24x10 Xoar props obtaining for the 7-77?
Old 11-08-2014, 06:24 AM
  #1318  
Maxam
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You are getting into a very low pitch to diameter ratio with that prop. Good for 3D anyway. As it unloads in the air its efficiency will become poor. I have never had a prop of that size. A much more appropriate prop would be a 22x12. This prop would also give good performance at part throttle settings. These engines are not to be run at full throttle continuously. I fly my 91 inch corsair at 1/2 throttle most of the time!
Old 11-08-2014, 06:25 AM
  #1319  
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On my 770 using a 24-8 I get around 5300. That's with straight exhaust and no pressure to the fuel tank.
you would,be better off with a smaller diameter prop for more RPMs.
Old 11-08-2014, 07:56 AM
  #1320  
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Originally Posted by Maxam
You are getting into a very low pitch to diameter ratio with that prop. Good for 3D anyway. As it unloads in the air its efficiency will become poor. I have never had a prop of that size. A much more appropriate prop would be a 22x12. This prop would also give good performance at part throttle settings. These engines are not to be run at full throttle continuously. I fly my 91 inch corsair at 1/2 throttle most of the time!
What do you estimate the thrust figures becoming with a 22x12?

Running it through a simple prop calculator, based off of the numbers that came on the 7-77 engine QC slip it turns a 24x8 @ approx 5500rpm - I would assume of course these to be actual numbers on the delivered engines before through break-in. Assuming that, I'm obtaining an estimated ~28lbs of static thrust with around 42mph pitch speed which wouldn't cut it for this Corsair in terms of top speed; you'd have to gun the throttle for most of the flight I'd imagine.

It seems some guys are obtaining those same RPM numbers (5,500-5,700) once broken in on a 24x10 prop which would then bring up the theoretical top speed to at least 52mph - requiring around 3.9hp out of the engine. On the specs for the engine I've seen online it gives an approximate 4.8hp rating which seems like it is severely overstated by at least 1hp ... funny enough, I flipped over the box my 7-77 came in and it estimates this engine outputs about 3.8hp which matches up much more closely to the prop calculation figures.

Now what you're saying about the efficiency becoming poor as it unloads could be true. In that case, with the engine having 3.8hp it should turn a 23x12 at approx 5,400rpm giving about 25lbs of thrust and ~65mph theoretical air speed ... ? Alternatively a 23x10 would give more rpm and give slightly more thrust and about 10mph slower speed.

I'd assume 25lbs of thrust would be adequate enough for a 30lbs plane for it not to seem underpowered?
Old 11-08-2014, 08:41 AM
  #1321  
Maxam
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No the engine is not 4.8 hp! That 25 pounds thrust is static at zero airspeed. People tend to forget... take three props of the same pitch and diameter, different manufacture......measure them and it is common to see the pitch off by as much as 50%. There is a reason why I have over 100 props. Great differences that can only be found by flying them....yes very expensive. The efficiency statement is not could be true it IS true. Look at prop efficiency vs normalized speed. Found in any book on aerodynamics. Yes a low pitch prop P/D ratio less than .5 has great thrust at zero but goes to hell as the speed of the plane increases. Higher P/D ratios maintain a greater thrust at speed. Those very low P/D ratio props became popular with the 3D ers. Look at the ubiquitous 10x6... good prop P/D ratio of .6. So why do I use a Xoar 22/10 3 blade on my corsair (P/D ratio of .45) well it is a scale plane and it looks good and performs to my satisfaction. Oh yes I have flown the plane with a Xoar 22/12 2 blade (P/D=5.5) and yes the performance was much better but way too fast for scale and did not look good. Check out the Moki guys. Most popular prop is a SEP 32x18 for slower models and 32x20 for the warbirds. Scary performance with the 32x20 (P/D=6.25) -Tom
Old 11-08-2014, 09:10 PM
  #1322  
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Hmmm interesting. I know you can't rely on the pitch between manufacturers which makes things a little tougher. I'm not sure I have the time or funds to go through 100 props right now either! The most I'll go through testing is 3-4 on an engine before settling on one.

Seems to be a delicate balance of prop size/pitch in comparison to engine performance and plane weight. The 22/10 3 blade actually seems like a good option running it through the calculator - should give approx. 27lbs of thrust on the ground with ~52mph theoretical top speed; about what I was looking for. Hangar 9 recommends the 23x10 Mejzlik carbon prop in the manual with the Evo 7-77. I think I'll try out the Xoar 22x10 3 blade.

You've prompted me to read more about prop efficiency as well. Funny enough, on my smaller P-51 warbird (Top Flite 66" wingspan P-51D) I'm running a Xoar 16x6 prop on an O.S FS 120 III pumped, and I found it to be a much better match than the 15x8 I was originally using. I found the 15x8 reached it's maximum performance between half and 3/4 throttle... anything from maybe 3/4 throttle and higher just seemed to "stall" the prop and not move the plane any faster. The 16x6 is much better overall for acceleration and seemingly top speed as well. Couldn't figure that one out... it seems the 15x8 should be better based on the P/D ratio? Though I figured the drag of the airframe required more thrust to reach higher speed in this case. I would assume the Corsair has less drag than the P-51D models with the fake air intake creating drag...

Last edited by chorner; 11-08-2014 at 09:23 PM.
Old 11-09-2014, 05:05 AM
  #1323  
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I find a lower pitch works better, but then I'm flying draggy aircraft from a smallish (300') field. 23x8 on a 770 in a Gee Bee Y, and 26x8 on a 990 in a Giant Telemaster. I have put a 24x12 on the Telemaster and it's definitely faster, but gives up a lot of thrust down low (where it helps).
Old 11-09-2014, 05:07 AM
  #1324  
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Was the 15x8 a zinger??? Ha! On my 120's I used 14x8's! in the old days of the original 120's. Heck even 3 or 4 props is a lot of money. Those carbon props tend to unload well. The Xoar does too so be sure to throttle back in a dive. -Tom
Bob Boucher's (From Astro Flight) Electric Motor Handbook is a sophisticated manual that has excellent discussions on prop efficiency, thrust vs normalized speed etc. Not easy reading! It was published long ago but might still be available. All the info directly applies to engines. It has been valuable to me. -Tom
Old 11-09-2014, 05:12 AM
  #1325  
CH Ignitions
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@ Chorner:
I will look into that. But that will be much more visible as parts will have to come some how from the case, hanging ...ETC.
But ...I will do it and have an option for scale and non scale option.
Current version is hidden behind the prop.
As far as size I will try to make it as small as possible .
The unit has 7 ignition coils that are 17.5x17.5x20mm... so will be a matter of placing them.
7 in the row will be a longer box, if arange 4 and 3 on top will be taller. if put 4 on one side and 3 on the other then will be wider.

On the Air frame you guys install those engines...what/how much room do you have . If I make it...I will try to make it to be easier for you.
I will come back with some cad options in a week or so.

Thanks
Adrian

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