w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Actually, the Chinese nitro has been the norm for at least 15 years.

The NJ company that was the last to make nitro in the USA had been importing it from China for many years before the cat got out of the bag.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

http://caselaw.findlaw.com/us-federa...t/1097088.html

earlwb

Yeah the RC car fuels tend to run as little as 8% oil content in the fuel. But it depends on the brand of course. Oil percentage tends to have an effect of that for every 1% less oil, the fuel acts like it has 1% more nitromethane in it. I was thinking that one could put a small quantity in the freezer and chill it down good and then carefully note where the oil level is, as the oil will settle out at lower temperatures. But I forget at the moment how cold one has to go with the glow fuel though. Anyway my experiences was if you had more oil content in the fuel, it tended to cause a increase in the black carbon residue one gets inside the engine.Castor oil tends to contribute to that more than synthetic oils do too.

The Austrailians and their experiences with cheap nitromethane was an inexplicable sudden rise of corrosion in their engines, causing things like early failure of ball bearings, rusted gears and so on. When they did some tests there were finding higher levels of nitric acid impurities in the nitromethane they were getting. When you burn the glow fuel in a engine the nitromethane does produce some nitric acid as a side effect of combustion. But having extra nitric acid to start with wouldn't be good either. They had posted some articles in some club newsletters, but I don't know if those are still online or not. But that does seem to help explain why over the last number of years we have had a larger number of engines with corrosion issues and early bearing failures.

summerwind

another case of us "Shooting ourselves in the foot"

what was the fuel industry to do for Nitro when Angus halted production?........................sorry modelers, racers and yada yada...........you'll have to stop enjoying your sport until we get our act together!
this reminds me of when Harley Davidson cried and cried til they got a tax tariff imposed on Japanese bike builders for anything over 700cc's.

in regards to PM and bad fuel, it's simply a call to Tommy at Allied to let him know the problem.........you guys complaining are doing this right?..................
he'll make it right.

earlwb

Actually our use of nitromethane with model airplanes is not even a blip on what industry uses it for. So it would impact the industry a lot more. They really do not care about us hobbyists and our fuel needs. But the factories have to keep running though.

ref http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitromethane

I think most if not all of the semiconductor processing is overseas now. Dry cleaning solvents has been on the decline too. Superglue I am not sure on though. But in any case the need or demand for nitromethane has likely been declining over the years. So we may wind up with using FAI fuel in the future.

summerwind

all so true Earl,

this topic however is pointing a finger at Powermaster, and my question to "Oldbob" who started it is what's being done to let Allied know about it?
he's been on here reading since the last 3 posts have been posted, but doesn't answer..............so is this thread just a slam on Powermaster, or a concern to let others know what to look for in batch numbers and let's help Allied resolve the issue.
properly tuned and running engines in RC planes are essential to not only having a succesful flight, but to operate properly for safety purposes too............an RC model can be quite a handful and downright dangerous if the engine goes out of tune, dies, stutters or whatever just after a takeoff.................i've seen many flyers get into trouble because of a stutter or flameout right after takeoff which ended in a pit disaster.

so the right thing to do here is let Allied know and get the isse resolved.................

energyman

My Feedback: (2)

Summerwind,

I agree. I mentioned in post #10 that we had one local flyer that had an issue with the newest batch of Powermaster 15% late last summer. The hobby shop owner gave the returned gallon of fuel to me and I had no problems. It makes me wonder if it is an operational problem. It is hard to say since I am not a witness to the reported problem.

However, either the local hobby shop owner or I will contact Allied Monday to inform them of this thread and to find out if they have had any recent batch issues. I will report back if I find out anything.

Danny Jackson

Oldbob

OK all; first off this is not a slam against PowerMaster. I want PM to be successful in their glow fuel business. But most of all I expect of get good quality glow fuel from each and every can; not from some of the cans, or from most of the cans, but from all of the cans. I still have some PM fuel that is working fine.

The first time that this problem occurred was 3 or 4 months ago when a club member opened a new can of PM 10%. After spending 20 minutes trying to set the needle he asked me for some help. I also could not get a proper needle setting and the engine would stop running seconds after the glow heat was removed. Yes we replaced the glow plug (twice). When we put different fuel in the plane the engine ran fine. The very next day a fellow showed up at our field with a plane and a new can of PM 10% fuel that he purchased at the same LHS as the first fellow. This new guy asked for some help from of our club members in setting up his engine and plane. Without getting into all the details’ the engine would not run and we finally realized the two cans of new fuel had the same batch number. Only after replacing the fuel did the engine run as it should. The first club member contacted PowerMaster and they said bring the bad fuel back to them and they will replace it. He said it’s unrealistic to expect a customer to drive 200 miles round trip to replace a $17.00 can of fuel, so the matter was dropped. The second fellow still has the can of bad fuel but has not contacted PM as far as I know.

The third can of fuel showed up at our field on last week. This was from a different fellow and the fuel was purchased at a different hoppy shop about 30 miles from the first hobby shop. This bad fuel acted the same way as the first two cans. So at my suggestion the suspected fuel was removed from the plane and a different fuel put in. With the different fuel everything ran fine and the plane flew four times without incident. It was after this third incident that I decided to post here.
This third can of fuel I have in my possession and I have been trying to test it the best that I know how.

I have put one once in a plastic mixing cup to let all the methanol and nitro evaporate. Only the oil will remain and this way I will know what the oil content is. This takes 3 or 4 days for the evaporation.

I have put some (10 drops or so) in a glass dish and burned it to see the color of the flame as compare to fuel that I know to be good. I could see no difference.

I have 100% methanol as well as denatured alcohol, which is 95% ethanol and 5% methanol. I have put 10 drops of each in my glass dish and burned them. I could see no difference in the color of the flame. They look very similar to the good and bad glow fuel that I burned.

So, at this point, this is what I think I know. When let by a match, methanol and ethanol burn at about the same rate and with the same color flame. When let be a glow Plug, only methanol will create the catalytic reaction needed to keep the glow plug hot and the engine running.

I will contact PM tomorrow and post here.

Bob

Sport_Pilot

Angus still makes nitromethane in the USA and they will sell to hobby fuel manufactures, or to us if mixed with 50% methanol. Don't know if manufactures are using Angus or China, but since Angus will not sell fuel for drag racing Isuspect PM only uses Chinese nitro.

Sport_Pilot

This says the plant was shut down for ten months, Angus imported nitro during that time, then dumped that when their plant reopened at prices lower than other importers. NHRA was buying nitro from Angus just a few years ago, Angus stopped selling to them because many racers were not handling their product as safely as they thought they should, and it was a very minor part of their business.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

Agreed 100% Summerwind. That tariff totally ruined a good, healthy motorcycle culture in this country.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

I don't think that Angus ever did actually reopen their plant? If you search enough in the AHRA , NHRA , and other posts, this information will come out?

Why would Angus make Nitro when they could import it from China cheaper than they could make it themselves?

blw

My Feedback: (3)

The NHRA fine for using non approved nitromethane is $100,000. There was a clamp down on nitro sources a few years ago, and I think it later became a sole American source....or else!

Sport_Pilot

The court document says they reopened it. Normally I might agree that an article could be wrong or lying, but these people could be tried for perjury when they say it was only closed for ten months and it is still closed.

Angus claims that their nitro is the only one pure enough for some applications, that would be a good reason to keep the plant open and to charge more.

Oldbob

Well! if there is any other way of saying that I feel stupid, I can’t think of it. The fuel I thought to be bad turns out to be good. I decided to run the fuel in one of my engines on a test stand. Frist I used my old fuel that I know to be good and set the high and low needles. Then I chanced to the fuel thought to be not good. To my amazement the engine ran exactly the same.

I did call Tommy twice today, first to tell him that I had bad fuel, then again a little while ago to apologize for my wrong assumption.

I apologize for misleading anyone to think that PowerMaster was putting out bad fuel

If the moderator would like to delete this thread, it is OK with me.
Bob

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

All racing nitro comes from Chinese chemical plants. Dow still makes it but they refuse to sell it to racers, quoting security difficulties at racetracks. VP Racing Fuels sells much of the racing nitro in the US, and they get it wherever they can.

blw

My Feedback: (3)

I just ran across this: http://www.dragracingonline.com/anal...5-nitro-1.html

I know you keep up with drag racing, Sport Pilot. I've been expecting you to remember the story and straighten us out.

earlwb

I think it would be wise to delete the thread. It just leaves the wrong impression on people.