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Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

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Old 07-21-2012, 07:10 AM
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Default Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

I didn't post this in the Engine conversions forum because this is not a gas conversion, but an Electronic ignition conversion that will still utilize glow fuel, 15% Cool Power in this case.

It will make about 20% more HP than a simlilar displacement gas conversion. It will also run cooler & create far less carbon/soot than gasoline. The increased power over gasoline will allow lower throttle setting for a given moderate level of in the air performance, further reducing the cost of operation gap W/gasoline.

I contacted Adrian @ C&H electronics a while back via the phone # that was posted on the C&H Ignitions site. http://www.ch-ignitions.com/

If you call the # you will might get a voicemail, but Adrian has ALWAYS returned contact so leave a message. (he can also be reached at the e-mail address listed adrianc4u@msn.com )

I prefer the C&H systems for several reasons. 1st and foremost is the way that the trigger magnet is mounted in a ring that is infinately adjustable. The hall sensor is mounted securely to the cam housing & the adjustment is made entirely via the trigger ring that is secured to the prop hub W/set screws. This makes set-up much easier. There is no need to index the prop hub as in the Saito or RCXEL systems. The C&H module is also lighter that the others. The slightly higher price for the C&H sytem compared to the RCXEL gives you a lot more value as far as time/comvienence involved in set-up.

Anyway, Adrian made up a system for my FA91 & it came in the mail yesterday. Here is what was in the USPS Priority Mail box that arrived.



A application specific hall sensor mount:




A trigger ring W/magnet that fit the FA91 prop hub:


And the new style, more compact ignition module W/a plug lead/Mc Daniels spark plug socket for a 1/4" X 32 plug:


Those of you familiar W/the old C&H systems will recognize the instructions & paper "degree wheel" that are still included. (the degree wheel can be pasted on a piece of lite ply or other suitable backing)





Now, let me go on record as saying that EI for a 4-stroke engine this small is borderline as far as available space in the airframe & ROI. The fuel savings on this size engine will take a while to return the cost of the system, but unit will eventually pay for itself in fuel economy alone. The real bonus will be a slight increase in HP & a tremendous improvement in user friendliness. The reliable idle RPM will be several hundred RPM lower, starting will be 1 flip easy W/no backfires & smooth running throughout the RPM range will be easy to attain.

This engine is destined for a Wingsmaker 1/5 Piper J-3 Cub ARF so space for the system is ample & the battery/module will probably aide in balancing the CG W/O lead.

All in all, my initail impression is that I am very pleased. This system is very well engineered & fabricated, well worth the few $$ more than the price of a generic sytem that will require a lot of fitting/fabricating by the end user. It is also superior, IMO to the factory Saito system.

Stay tuned for updates on the inial set-up & gains in HP, lowered reliable idle RPM & increased fuel economy.
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Old 07-21-2012, 07:16 AM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

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Old 07-21-2012, 05:56 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Setting Up the Ignition Timing

I have a tool kit for setting up EI initial spark advance. I originally made this "kit" for my FA150 & of course it worked perfectly on my 300TTDP.

I had to modify things a bit, but it sufficed for my FS91S.

Here is the kit.


It consists of the degree wheel cut out that came W/my original MK I Synchrospark systems from 1997, (pasted on lite ply) a piston stop made form a burned out glowplug, a socket head screw & jam nut, & a broken prop used to rotate the crank. I was not able to use the prop as it was too thick & the pointer that you will see in the next picture extended too far forward on the FA91s to clear the prop. In had to use a thinner propeller & washers to space the prop out to clear the pointer.

The FA150 conrod & sparkplugs are just there for referance.

After the pointer is installed on the rocker covers, the piston stop screwed in finger tight & the degree wheel installed on the prop shaft, the crank is gently roatated CW by hand until the piston stop is encountered.

While maintaining contact W/the piston stop, loosen the prop nut & rotate the degree wheel to a 0* reading. Snug down the prop nut. (the pointer is directly over 0*, but in the angle of the shot it appears to be a few degrees off)


Now, rotate the crank CCW gently by hand until the piston stop is again encountered. Observe the degree reading.


Loosen the prop nut & while maintaing contact W/the piston stop, move the degree wheel to a reading that is 1/2 of the reading just taken. In this case 1/2 of 40* is 20*. Snug down the prop nut.


Now, when the pointer is over 0* the crank will be @ TDC.


It does not matter if you are on the compression/power TDC as the ignition will fire every 360*, once as a waste spark, once as an ignition spark. If you want to screw in a glow plug @ this time, you can double check your setting by closing the throttle & gently/slowly rotating the crank until the piston "dwells" @ TDC on compression. You will have about 20* of rotation either way of TDC as the empty combustion chamber creates a vacume that will only allow a bit of (gentle) rocking back & forth.

Hook up the ignition system to the hall sensor & a 4.8V battery pack. Instal a sparkplug in the Mc Daniels, socket. Leave the spark plug that is installed in the socket in a place that will allow you to hear the spark event. Turn down the radio so you can hear the spark. Rotate/adjust the magnet trigger ring on the prop hub until you observe (hear) a spark @ 28* BTDC as you rotate the crank CCW. You will get a spark even when the rotational speed is very slow. You can watch the degree wheel & listen for the spark.

Once you have done all this, install the spark plug in the glow plug hole & start the engine.

You will find that the HS & LS needles will require leaning out, especially the HS needle as the engine will now be running slobberingly rich @ open throttle positions even though it was leaned out for maximum RPM W/the glow ignition.

After the needles are set, experiment W/advancing the timing a few degrees @ a time by loosening the set screw & rotating the triggrer ring about .030" CCW on the prop hub to advance the timing a few degrees. Start the engine, adjust the HS needle if needed & check RPM @ WOT. If there is an RPM increases @ WOT, repeat & repeat again until you reach a timing setting that does not improve WOT RPM. Back off to the minimum advance setting that achieves maximum RPM.

In my next post I will post the results (improvements) of the spark ignition over glow ignition. They are significant.
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Old 07-22-2012, 05:02 AM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Here are some shots of the installed C&H EI on the engine.



I was having fuel delivery problems as the test stand has been set up for larger engines W/fuel pumps. I mounted the smaller FA91S near the top of the stand to simplify throttle hook-up & it did make for some difficulty getting the engine to draw the tank down all the way. I eventually overcame that issue, but getting the lowest stable idle on spark ignition seemed to be an issue as after a few minutes idling @ very low RPM the engine would become fuel starved.

I will re-position the engine for further, more accurate tests, but the results of the fuel consumption & maximum RPM are still relavant.

Here are the results for glow ignition using a Zinger 15 X 4 prop & 15% Cool Power glow fuel. Since it would have taken so long to drain the 16oz tank, I made a mark about 1/2 way up the side & carefully filled the tank to the line. There was approximately 8oz of fuel in the tank. As soon as bubbles appeared in the fuel line to the carb & surging started, I cut the ignition & recorded the elapsed time.

Miniumum reliable idle RPM..........1900
Maximun RPM @ WOT................10,300
Time to drain the tank & WOT....9m 57s

In the results for the C&H EI lowest reliable idle could not be established due to the fuel delivery problems. I was able to get a few minutes of stable idle before the engine would die so I recorded that RPM, but it is not conclusive.

Minimum reliable idle RPM.............1700
Maximum RPM @ WOT................10,500
Time to drain the tank @ WOT...12m 11s

Results:

Minimum reliable idle...........inconclusive
Maximum RPM increase............200 RPM
Fuel economy increase...................22%

HP Glow/EI...........................1.503/1.592 = 6% HP increase (.089HP)
Static thrust @ 77*F...........14.40#/14.96# = 4% increases in static thrust (.56# thrust)

Bear in mind that these results were achieved W/22% better fuel economy. Even though the improvements may seem small that is 28% more power per unit of fuel & that is significant.
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Old 07-22-2012, 06:39 AM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Nice clean install, I like it. 1700 at idle...
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:04 AM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Very impressive and thanks for your tests and reports. I see you have both a 180 and a 180HC. Is the the HC version of your doing? I recall you were experimenting with such. What changes in timing would you investigate if you were to fit the 180HC with electronic CDI? Would you expect to see proportional gains with the 180 or 180HC as you did with the 150 as fitted with ECDI? Thank you very much. I have a NIB FA-180 that I plan to fit with ECDI.
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:07 AM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Broken Wings

Nice clean install, I like it. 1700 at idle...
I think I will be able to better that W/a more appropriate fuel tank carburetor C/L set-up.

I was able to get 1400 idle W/my FA150 on spark
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Old 07-22-2012, 07:42 AM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S



Hi Dan,

I am glad that it fit your needs and got a performance boost.
I have been working on couple more Saito engines to convert them to Glow CDI and Gasoline.
Saito 125 glow and Gasoline
Saito FA120,150,180 GlowCDI And Gasoline
Saito FA220 and 300Twin Glow CDI and later Gasoline.

Thanks
Adrian

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Old 07-22-2012, 09:10 AM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Can you get away with running less Nitro when using a spark ignition? Say 5-10%.
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Old 07-22-2012, 01:04 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

C&H

I would love to see one of these kits become available for the Magnum/ASP 1.20 and 1.80 four strokes.

A kit for the Saito R450 radial would be sweet.
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Old 07-22-2012, 02:44 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Quote:
ORIGINAL: jymz

Can you get away with running less Nitro when using a spark ignition? Say 5-10%.

You do not need any nitro when running spark ignition. 0% nitro will run on spark ignition.

Nitro still gives a HP boost though.

That's why Top Fuel dragsters run a methanol/nitro mix albeit far higher in nitro than what we use.
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Old 07-22-2012, 02:52 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Quote:
ORIGINAL: fiery

C&H

A kit for the Saito R450 radial would be sweet.
After Adrian & I set up EI on my Saito 200Ti inline 30* "V" twin, I am seeking a 450R3D for my own use. It will run C&H EI, either a simple 3 hall sensor/module set up or perhaps Adrian can make some of his ideas about a multi-trigger magnet/single module set-up that he has envisioned a reality.
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Old 07-22-2012, 03:33 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

If you have a ASP 120-180 you can send it to me and I will make it.
Imade a ASP 91


Thanks
Adrian
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Old 07-22-2012, 04:05 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Quote:
ORIGINAL: spaceworm

Very impressive and thanks for your tests and reports. I see you have both a 180 and a 180HC. Is the the HC version of your doing? I recall you were experimenting with such. What changes in timing would you investigate if you were to fit the 180HC with electronic CDI? Would you expect to see proportional gains with the 180 or 180HC as you did with the 150 as fitted with ECDI? Thank you very much. I have a NIB FA-180 that I plan to fit with ECDI.

I screwed up my old used 180 conrod when I was cleaning off the parting line for clearance in the 150 case. The 180 conrods have been on backorder, 1st til 7/7 now until 7/29. When I procure one I will either have it bushed for use on the 150 crank or, if the valve clearance is sufficient, I will use it on the 180 crank.

Even on the 150 crank/180 jug, the displacement will be 1.71 cu in compared to 1.77 for the full 180 stroke. Hardly enough of a displacement difference to matter. CR on the 150 case will still be in the 13:1ish range on the 150 crank. Probably more managable that the >15:1 on the full 180 geometry on the short 150 case deck.

I suspect that the >15:1 CR of the 180 geometry on the 150 case will be a real bear to live W/on glow ignition. I think EI will definately tame it down but it would probably run too hot for use in a large high drag airframe under constant high throttle setting useage. I will probably put it in my Hanger-9 25% Cap 232 & use the extra HP for short bursts to take it vertical into the stratosphere.





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Old 07-22-2012, 06:17 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S


Quote:
ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

That's why Top Fuel dragsters run a methanol/nitro mix albeit far higher in nitro than what we use.
90% nitro, 10% methanol

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Old 07-23-2012, 01:28 AM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S


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ORIGINAL: blw


Quote:
ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

That's why Top Fuel dragsters run a methanol/nitro mix albeit far higher in nitro than what we use.
90% nitro, 10% methanol


I wonder what my 300TTD on spark would run like on that mixture? (not for long I suspect)
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Old 07-23-2012, 12:51 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Especially not long at all unless you add some oil to that fuel mix
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Old 07-23-2012, 02:53 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S


Quote:
ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

Quote:
ORIGINAL: jymz

Can you get away with running less Nitro when using a spark ignition? Say 5-10%.

You do not need any nitro when running spark ignition. 0% nitro will run on spark ignition.

Nitro still gives a HP boost though.

That's why Top Fuel dragsters run a methanol/nitro mix albeit far higher in nitro than what we use.



So if I can use little to no nitro where do you think the trade off is. More power from the spark ignition vs nitro. If I'm using a FA-150 on my sixty size stik, which is way over powered to begin with, how little nitro would you use with a spark ignition and still have the same power output?

Jim
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Old 07-23-2012, 08:21 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Quote:
ORIGINAL: jymz


Quote:
ORIGINAL: SrTelemaster150

Quote:
ORIGINAL: jymz

Can you get away with running less Nitro when using a spark ignition? Say 5-10%.

You do not need any nitro when running spark ignition. 0% nitro will run on spark ignition.

Nitro still gives a HP boost though.

That's why Top Fuel dragsters run a methanol/nitro mix albeit far higher in nitro than what we use.



So if I can use little to no nitro where do you think the trade off is. More power from the spark ignition vs nitro. If I'm using a FA-150 on my sixty size stik, which is way over powered to begin with, how little nitro would you use with a spark ignition and still have the same power output?

Jim

All I can say is "try it and see".

Right now, I'm running both glow & spark ignition. I don't plan on keeping two fuel formulas on hand so 15% Cool Power suits me for both.
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Old 07-24-2012, 02:42 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Question; Are you using the short reach plug on your Saito?

I've found that I need the longer reach spark plug for the O.S. four strokes. I had to buy the Rimfire VR2L and finish tap through the head to get the plug to "look right" ....
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Old 07-24-2012, 04:15 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Broken Wings

Question; Are you using the short reach plug on your Saito?

I've found that I need the longer reach spark plug for the O.S. four strokes. I had to buy the Rimfire VR2L and finish tap through the head to get the plug to ''look right'' ....

I'm using the standard reach $12 Chinese plugs. I was using Rimfires but when I tried the made in China plugs in my 300TTDP I got a little better idle & a slight increases in WOT RPM.
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Old 07-25-2012, 05:52 AM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Ihave the original NKG-ME8 if you want to try it.
Adrian
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Old 09-03-2012, 06:40 AM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Thanks for the info Guys...But....How much power would be lost running petrol compared to Meth??

Adrian sorry for destroying my ASP 400..She was in the bath getting cleaned for its trip...
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:39 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

How is the engine temperature running the ignition.
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Old 09-03-2012, 01:50 PM
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Default RE: Setting Up C&H EI System On A Saito FA91S

Iam still working on the 3 cylinder circuit, it looks promising but need more tweaks.
Onece Iwill have it working strong on the simulator then I will need an engine to try it on and see if on a real engine will perform the same as on the simulator.

Thanks
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