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Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

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Old 03-24-2013, 10:15 AM
  #251
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

In spite of my grumpy attitude, I want to thank you very much for posting your very honest article and replies. Without your original post on this topic, the majority of us (we fellow forum members) might not have known about this engine's existence. Thanks again.


Ed Cregger


That Quote is from very early in this thread, and personaly I've seen nothing since that has made me feel any different concerning the OP. Have noted that there doesn't appear much difference in cost of fuel, but in a 40 size, how really important is that.

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Old 03-24-2013, 10:23 AM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

merlin: http://www.merlinglowplugs.com/Aircraft.html also sells nelson style plugs as well as cox and norvel plugs for a decent price.
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Old 03-24-2013, 10:38 AM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


Quote:
ORIGINAL: hsukaria


Quote:
ORIGINAL: triumphman49

Zagnut,

Have you got a sling? Seems like you might need it after patting yourself on the back so hard.

1QwkSport2.5r , with 3500 post, if your ''inexperienced'' . . . . they don''t even have a rating for someone like me. LOL Have followed your posts in the Saito, K&B, and conversion forums and try to learn a lot from your experiences.

T-man49 in Al
Yeah, ''inexperienced'', I have gotten a lot of help from 1QwkSport2.5r too.

Anyway, I don't deny that this engine is good. But you have to realize in the real world, there is always a design compromise. But here, even if there were some slight performance loss (I'm not sure there really is, except that you have to run a bigger prop than the glow version), the cost savings are substantial. You are running $6/gal gas instead of $18/gal glow fuel. I would think that would make up for any drawbacks.
Thanks guys. I learned a lot from the folks here on RCU and spent a lot of time with a bunch of different engines and tried my own experiments. I like to experiment. I'd very much like to see what makes this secret Norvel gas engine tick. Seems odd that Norvel picks one or two people at random (it seems) to 'test' a new engine. Never heard of this happening in the past; perhaps the times are changing. I have a hard time accepting that a gasoline fueled .40 will run faster than a glow .40 on the same prop. I'd like to see videos of this with a tach reading. It's hard to convince the public that a miracle engine will run on gas with a glow plug better/faster than a glow without any information being published about the engine except here on RCU. No info on Norvels site that I've seen.


I'm probably chasing a snake oil dealer on this one though.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:14 AM
  #254
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Wow, lots of stuff going on! Just for the record I contacted NV direct, not through Bill, they then emailed me to let me know the engines were ready. Ok, so I have some gas and will be trying to give it a test run this week.


Andy
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:17 AM
  #255
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

The claim made earlier in this thread is that the gas version has to run with a bigger prop at slightly lower RPMs. I have had a Norvel AX-40 for the past 5 years and used it as a general sport engine and now am putting it in a speedy plane that uses a smaller prop and higher RPMs. So, I would not want the gas version, since it is limited by the top end RPMs but is claimed to have higher torque. So, the gas version would not work for my present application. Conversely, according to the claims presented here, I would be tempted to use the gas 40 as a replacement to a 4-stroke engine, like a 52.
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Old 03-24-2013, 11:50 AM
  #256
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Have to agree with you on the AX 40 for the small, fast planes. Light weight and high rpm. I use it where I used to use a 32 or 28 and really haul.

Do you know which tuned pipe header fits it? I have 3 for my 25 NVs that work great (got them off fleabay from an ex-racer) I know the 40 responds like the OS with the increased exhaust volume. I played around by making a 1" extension to fit between the front and rear of the stock muffler using a longer bolt and picked up another 1200 rpm with the small props, so thinking it would do well with a tuned pipe too.
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Old 03-24-2013, 12:38 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


Quote:
ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r

I have a hard time accepting that a gasoline fueled .40 will run faster than a glow .40 on the same prop.
it can't unless the laws of physics are different for this engine.
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:04 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

do you also have a hard time understanding that a .40 diesel will turn a bigger prop faster than a glow .40?
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:27 PM
  #259
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Just 1 last thing can you use aviatition fuel or racing fuel in the oil blend if I can stay away from the smell of gas all the better.
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:31 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


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ORIGINAL: erieqc

Just 1 last thing can you use aviatition fuel or racing fuel in the oil blend if I can stay away from the smell of gas all the better.
According to NV, I was told racing fuel would not be a problem. I was given the ok to run 100 unleaded, I can also get 98 unleaded with not alcohol in the fuel. Both were Sunoco fuels, I can not comment on 100LL or higher octane race fuel.

Andy
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:41 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


Quote:
ORIGINAL: triumphman49

do you also have a hard time understanding that a .40 diesel will turn a bigger prop faster than a glow .40?
the claim is that this miracle engine is somehow making more power on gas than the same engine would on methanol....do you have a hard time understanding that that can't be true?
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:07 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Not really, but then again, I also believe the world isn't flat, a 747 will actually fly even though the wing is too small, space flight is possible (I watch launches from my front porch) and that black holes do exist.
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:32 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Quote:
ORIGINAL: hllywdb

I have to agree with you on the AX 40 for the small, fast planes. Light weight and high rpm. I use it where I used to use a 32 or 28 and really haul.

Do you know which tuned pipe header fits it? I have 3 for my 25 NVs that work great (got them off fleabay from an ex-racer) I know the 40 responds like the OS with the increased exhaust volume. I played around by making a 1'' extension to fit between the front and rear of the stock muffler using a longer bolt and picked up another 1200 rpm with the small props, so thinking it would do well with a tuned pipe too.
hllywdb, I am actually in that state right now. I put the AX-40 in a Hangar 9 Sundowner 36 in a 45 degrees off vertical. The tilt-down stock muffler still rubs agains the cowl cheeks. So, I would have to fabricate a spacer about 1/4 inch thick. I found a muffler at the Toledo Show last year and I tried to install it. The seller claimed it fits an OS 40 FSR, but is only slightly wider bolt spacing than the NV 40. But because I was trying to torque the muffler bolt at an angle, I ended up stripping the threads on the muffler mounting hole. I plan on drilling and tapping it to a 6-32 soon. I then will shop around for a tuned muffler. I don't think I want to do a tuned pipe, I am not such a dedicated speed flier. I will check with Jett Engineering for their tuned muffler. If not, I will get a MAC's one-piece muffler with an adapter.

If anyone has any other possible muffler solutions, it help me a lot.
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Old 03-24-2013, 02:39 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

You can order a straight out muffler from NV. I'm using one on mine.
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Old 03-24-2013, 03:30 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


Quote:
ORIGINAL: 1QwkSport2.5r


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

Quote:
I've read this thread on and off for awhile and I am still a bit perplexed as to gasoline working with a glow plug using a catalytic type of reaction like glow fuel.
It doesn't have a catalytic reaction, it is simply reacting to the heat of the glow plug. The glow plug needs to be hotter. It retains heat to the next cycle. Much like a red hot exhaust valve causes preignition, only this is controlled by the heat range of the glow plug. See the gas/glow threads in the engine conversion forum, there is some success with pure gas and a really hot plug, or an on board glow ignitor..
It kinda puts me off because for a glow plug to stay that hot, it would make sense that it wouldn't last as long. Hotter plug = thinner coil. It the wire gets too hot it'll simply melt. Gasoline burning that much hotter than methanol must drive a fine line between longevity and reliability. Being a turbo plug lends me to believe the Turbos are hotter plugs yet plus they seal better. Not my idea of a money saver since Turbo plugs are about $2-3 more than standard plugs at the hobby shop. If there is a spec sheet from Norvel available for this engine, or even the owners manual, I wouldn't mind seeing it. Any links to this or is it still hush hush?
Thin elements for glow plugs are hotter because of the reaction with methanol. For gasoline a thick element of ni chrome will retain the heat better and last longer. The first Arden glow plugs wer ni chrome and had no reaction with methanol. Diesel engines use glow plugs for cold weather startup and they burn even hotter and do not melt the glow plugs.
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:39 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Just curious. What is the ratio used of Gasoline to Klotz Benol?
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:52 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

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ORIGINAL: Uncas

Just curious. What is the ratio used of Gasoline to Klotz Benol?


From the discussion above 1 part Benol to 4 parts Gas or 20% total Klotz.

But as I pointed out above the Benol spec sheet suggests that Gasoline will dissolve only 6.25% Benol by volume at normal room temperature.

An interesting suspension of the laws of Chemistry?

(Pun intended)

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Old 03-24-2013, 05:56 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

been referenced here as 14% . . . . . a pint will make about a gallon
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Old 03-24-2013, 05:59 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

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ORIGINAL: triumphman49

been referenced here as 14% . . . . . a pint will make about a gallon

which post number?

Ray
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:23 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

And Just for us curious types, how is it difficult to believe that the gas engine can produce more power than the Methanol based fuels, considering that gasoline has about 45.7 MJ/Kg of energy VS Methanol at 22.03 MJ/Kg energy? By my calculation, that is a little over double the potential energy!! Granted, the gasoline must be run at a much leaner fuel/air ratio for proper combustion, but I still don't see why there might be some advances that would allow a gasoline powered engine to be of equal (more or less) power of that of a glow (methanol) fueled engine!

Craig.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:32 PM
  #271
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

qazimoto is corect. It won't dissolve higher than 6% or more. Can't go higher than that in a VRO or oil injection system as it won't disolve fast enough to burn it. Have to mix it, give it more time to disolve, then mix it again. Technical caster takes even longer, about a week. Benol has addatives to make it mix better with gasoline than stratight castor.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:39 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

look at the fuel/air ratios for each and you'll see why methanol makes more power by a very healthy margin....and that's before you start jacking up the compression ratio to way beyond what gasoline could ever hope to handle....but then of course if you add pixie dust and condensed unicorn farts to gas then all sorts of magical things can happen!
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:42 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


Quote:
ORIGINAL: hllywdb

You can order a straight out muffler from NV. I'm using one on mine.
I didn't know that existed. I will order one and save myself a lot of trouble. I wish I had it earlier, it would have saved me a lot of aggravation. Thanks for the info.
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Old 03-24-2013, 06:51 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


Quote:
ORIGINAL: ZAGNUT

look at the fuel/air ratios for each and you'll see why methanol makes more power by a very healthy margin....and that's before you start jacking up the compression ratio to way beyond what gasoline could ever hope to handle....but then of course if you add pixie dust and condensed unicorn farts to gas then all sorts of magical things can happen!
Thats pretty funny there Zag ! One things for sure someones gonna have to eat humble pie . I cant see how this would be in norvels best interest if this is all B.S. I had my name down for one of these but because Im not from the usa ill have to wait . Kinda glad its worked out that way as Im sure Ist hand reports wont be too far away . Cant wait and Zag do yopu have a personal axe to grind with norvel as you were on the attact from the get go . Dont mean nuttin by this just curious is all . Cheers the pope
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:15 AM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


Quote:
ORIGINAL: triumphman49

do you also have a hard time understanding that a .40 diesel will turn a bigger prop faster than a glow .40?

Not if you get a cold enough plug on the glow engine. It is the fact that you are changing timing when changing the compression that does this. The timing for glow is from changing the glow plug, so unless you use spark ignition this is difficult to get the right timing. With complete timing adjustability then methanol will have more power and torque than gas or diesel fuel. But not very efficiently.
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