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Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

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Old 03-25-2013, 05:21 AM
  #276
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


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ORIGINAL: SeaJay

And Just for us curious types, how is it difficult to believe that the gas engine can produce more power than the Methanol based fuels, considering that gasoline has about 45.7 MJ/Kg of energy VS Methanol at 22.03 MJ/Kg energy? By my calculation, that is a little over double the potential energy!! Granted, the gasoline must be run at a much leaner fuel/air ratio for proper combustion, but I still don't see why there might be some advances that would allow a gasoline powered engine to be of equal (more or less) power of that of a glow (methanol) fueled engine!

Craig.

Because you can run over three times as much methanol per volume of air, giving much higher energy per stroke despite the large amount of fuel used. The only way you can do that with gasoline is if the methanol engine has some defect (such as poor timing from limited availability of the right glow plut) or with an oxidizer to allow richer mixutres of gasoline.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:28 AM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


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ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot


Quote:
ORIGINAL: triumphman49

do you also have a hard time understanding that a .40 diesel will turn a bigger prop faster than a glow .40?

Not if you get a cold enough plug on the glow engine. It is the fact that you are canging timing when changing the compression that does this. The timing for glow is from changing the glow plug, so unless you use spark ignition this is difficult to get the right timing. With complet timing adjustability then methanol will have more power and torque than gas or diesel fuel. But not very efficiently.
Glow engines also can adjust the torque from ignition timing by varying the nitro content in the fuel as everybody knows. So, compression ratio, glow plug temp, and nitro content all affect timing, which affects torque, which finally affects power. But don't ask me for numbers, this is just qualitative.

Also remember that propeller efficiency changes with engine speed. A slower turning big prop would more likely give higher thrust than a small fast spinning prop. So in the end, if the gas engine is designed and tuned just right, while turning a bigger prop at slower speed, can potentially produce greater thrust. And ultimately, that is what matters when flying.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:36 AM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Quote:
Benol has addatives to make it mix better
No additives, polymerised or ozidized. Sometimes called blown oil because it is made by blowing air into a vat of hot oil. Blown vegtable oils are used in oil based paints because they bond and harden with age and/or exposure to air. They will also react differantly to various solvents such as gasoline. Not as good a lubricant, but not much worse either.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:43 AM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


Quote:
ORIGINAL: hsukaria


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot


Quote:
ORIGINAL: triumphman49

do you also have a hard time understanding that a .40 diesel will turn a bigger prop faster than a glow .40?

Not if you get a cold enough plug on the glow engine. It is the fact that you are canging timing when changing the compression that does this. The timing for glow is from changing the glow plug, so unless you use spark ignition this is difficult to get the right timing. With complet timing adjustability then methanol will have more power and torque than gas or diesel fuel. But not very efficiently.
Glow engines also can adjust the torque from ignition timing by varying the nitro content in the fuel as everybody knows. So, compression ratio, glow plug temp, and nitro content all affect timing, which affects torque, which finally affects power. But don't ask me for numbers, this is just qualitative.

Also remember that propeller efficiency changes with engine speed. A slower turning big prop would more likely give higher thrust than a small fast spinning prop. So in the end, if the gas engine is designed and tuned just right, while turning a bigger prop at slower speed, can potentially produce greater thrust. And ultimately, that is what matters when flying.
Correct, but if the same slower speed higher torque engine is running methanol instead of gasoline, then it will have even more torque and power spinning the bigger prop faster. Providing the timing is optimal. The diesel only tractor pull competitors have been know to cheat by mixing some methanol in their diesel fuel.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:11 AM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

No argument there!
I personally would have already ordered one these NV gassers if it weren't for the fact that I already have too many engines. I would have to sell off some before getting one of these. I will be eagerly waiting to hear from some of the owners about their experiences with this engine. That will determine how fast and determined I will be to sell off some of my older engines.
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Old 03-25-2013, 11:56 AM
  #281
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

This sounds interesting. If it works as good as I read here, I want one. I guess the only way to know is if I get one.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:31 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Got my little jewel today.   Can't wait for the Klotz to arrive.  Bob
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:33 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Bob, I had to be careful putting in the plug. It felt tight but had to back it in and out a couple times to get it to seat. I put a drop of oil on the head and when it would not blow bubbles it was tight.
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:36 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

AJ:  This motor sure is tight!!  I'm very hesitant to turn it.  Did you have to heat it?  Bob
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:40 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Mine was not that tight. They do say to rinse out the grease before you run it. I just put a little light oil in it to break down the grease. I will flush it and put a few drops of oil in it before I fire it up. It does seem tomhave very high compression, but that might change a little once rinsed out.

Andy
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Old 03-25-2013, 02:51 PM
  #286
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Based on my AX-40 manual from 5 years ago, it calls for turning the engine backwards with an electric starter before ever lubing or fueling the engine. The manual says that it comes with a special lube from the factory and spinning the engine dry with only the factory lube is the first part of the break-in process. I am not sure if that still applies to the gas engines or NV engines in general.
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:08 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

AJ:  Did you take the back plate off to do the flush?  BTW, did you notice the AME stamp on one of the lugs?  AME line was available years ago.  Wonder if NV has acquired this company.  Bob
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:11 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

I'm just going to flush it with the glow plug off, no carb, no muffler. Its still a little cold over here and was snowing a little after work so I didn't run it.

Andy
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Old 03-25-2013, 03:23 PM
  #289
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

I see the casting on the lug, they probably did by the company or at least the dies.
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:08 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

AJ:  Spent a couple of years in Walled Lake in the '70s.
HS: This manual only talks about turning it by hand prior to stating.

Bob
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:16 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Does anyone know the prop shaft size ? Not referenced on the instructions. Will need to get a hub nut or spinner to use starter on it. My little pocket calipers show about 7\32 or mabey 5.5mm?

T-man49 in Al
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Old 03-25-2013, 04:21 PM
  #292
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

You need to flip it over by hand about 100 times with some oil in it prior to starting. If you have had any of the small ones you are familiar with the drill. They have a tapered cylinder and are very tight at the top when new.

AME was the original Norvel stamping and they have carried that through to this day on a lot of the castings.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:09 PM
  #293
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Isn't NV Engines the same owner/people as the former Norvel with all the original tooling plus the recent new developments such as ths AX-46 and this gas engine?

You're right about turning it by hand, I was trying to remember way back to when I did it.
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Old 03-25-2013, 05:17 PM
  #294
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Yes,
Same people, same engines etc... The history is on the site
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:24 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Quote:
ORIGINAL: triumphman49
Does anyone know the prop shaft size ?
Seeing this new engine seems to be exactly the same as the old 40 (except maybe the head button) then the prop nut is 6mm with its brilliant captive prop washer. The prop shaft is a stud that screws into the crankshaft and has different length threads either side of the 1/4" machined section to handle thin and thick prop hubs. Using a stud is far from a new idea but, because it saves bending crankshafts, it should be standard fitting on all engines.

The company name is Northern Velocity, shortened to Norvel then shortened even more to NV but I can't remember how the AME fits in.
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Old 03-25-2013, 06:49 PM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


Quote:
ORIGINAL: Sport_Pilot

Quote:
Benol has addatives to make it mix better
No additives, polymerised or ozidized. Sometimes called blown oil because it is made by blowing air into a vat of hot oil. Blown vegtable oils are used in oil based paints because they bond and harden with age and/or exposure to air. They will also react differantly to various solvents such as gasoline. Not as good a lubricant, but not much worse either.

I am no expert by any means but my thinking is that the Klotz Benol has methanol or some derivative in it which will react with the platinum glow plug. Something has to react with the glow plug right?. I do not know if this engine is more powerful than a standard glow engine. I do not think it has to be. The advantages would be cheaper fuel costs and less of a mess to clean up and I suppose at a lighter weight than a gasser. To me, at the .40 size those advantages are not that great, but at a larger size like for Pattern flying it would be a big advantage as the pattern guys fly a lot and burn a lot of fuel. Maybe the same is true for racers and combat also - I am not into that type of flying. In Europe I hear they cannot get nitro at all so for them guys this might be a great thing at any size.

I also have the Norvel .061 and .074. They are great little engines. I seem to remember I soaked the cylinder in castor oil for 24 hours before I hand cranked them. The 1/2a forum has all kinds of tips for these engines.
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Old 03-26-2013, 05:21 AM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

Hey Downunder,

Northern Velocity, huh!

Thanx for the info, the prop shaft stud and captive prop washer along with the AME casing all seem rite-on! I was going to carry the shaft stud with me when trying to match up the hub nut, but some sizes, both SAE\metric will "fit".

If I read rite, the prop hole needs to be 1\4" to ride on the machined center of the stud?

Bill, Interesting to see reference to the K&S tubing by both you and the NV instructions, as I had previously purchased both small & medium size to use with Sullivans' universal tank bung. I have seen some posts where others have disregarded the quality of it. Some engine size ranges, I do have nitro, diesel & gas. I also like the Edson mounts where I'll be mounting different engines.
Another question, have you used castor other than Klotz ? and once mixed did it work as well as ? My LHS doesn't have the Benol, but I do have some Sig on hand.

Again, Many Thanx
T-man49 in Al
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Old 03-26-2013, 05:28 AM
  #298
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

T-man,
Other castors will work, as long as they are full castor, not synthetic. You will just have to let the fuel sit the full week. Synthetics will quickly ruin the engine.

The K&S has held up for a year so far. The tygon quickly deforms, especially on the exhaust nipple.

Remember to keep the fuel inlet on the carb pointed slightly down, not up, like in the manual pictures.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:13 AM
  #299
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

I'm going to jump in here again on the oil/gas mixing for you guys that have recieved your engines and are chomping at the bit to run them. NV realy does know what they are talking about on the castor mix. There have been numerous posts here by a lot of people as to how castor doesn't just mix and go with gas like a synthetic 2 stroke oil. You realy DO need to let it disolve for a week before running it, especially for break in or you will ruin your motor. Benol will dislove faster by a day or two, (in my experience) but regular castor will take a week. The synthetics are a big No No. That has been tested and has failed every time. I prefer the Benol racing as I believe that good oil is cheap insurance on any motor, especially with the higher temps here in FL. That being said the technical castor has been proven to work just fine with no failures.

Again, if you follow their instructions to a "T", you will be happy with the results.
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Old 03-26-2013, 06:21 AM
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Default RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

What is the ratio of oil to gas? How many oz of oi l to a gallon of gas?
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