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  1. #26

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    Is the added oil "something special" or is it ordinary 2-stroke oil?

  2. #27
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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


    ORIGINAL: Mr Cox

    There was a lot of talk about this about a year ago. Special glow plug and oil to make them run, here is Enyas engine; Enya gas engine

    Comments by Clarence Lee were very intriguing. The Enya 180 features what looks like a Walbro carb. The NV40 looks like it features a carb that's similar to other glow carbs, except it should have much larger venturi to breathe properly. But if I recall, the OP stated it wasn't pumped which would be a feat to get adequate fuel draw on venturi alone
    Regards,
    MattK
    (Rcmaster199@aol.com)

  3. #28

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


    ORIGINAL: hllywdb

    Hi guys,
    Wasn't sure on the forum but this is a glow engine, no ignition, no pumper carb, and starts with a prime and a glow igniter like we have all been using for years. All the other gas engines I've used have been large, heavy, and had complex ignition systems.

    This is less than 11oz w/o muffler, spins a 10X7 APC at 13,500rpm and sips fuel like a 25. I've been using premium pump gas in it and have'nt had a flame out or dead stick yet. I've been flying it in a WM LA racer that I had been flying for a year with a NV .40 nitro engine in with no complaints, so I figured it was a logical move. So far it flys with more power, less fuel, and I find the power throttles up much smoother and quicker than standard gasoline engines. I've included a video of it pulling a 46 size plane with some good authority.

    [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykJkVXeCaMI&feature=plcp[/youtube]


    Can the glow plug be used in alcohol fueled glow engines, but burning gasoline instead? Then I would be interested.


    Ed Cregger
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  4. #29

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    The OP said:
    "Plus this one pressurizes the fuel tank (standard muffler nipple) so it quickly separates the good tank stoppers from the cheap ones."

    So thats how it will draw fuel without pump, same as a glow engine does.

    I always thought that was a bad idea with gas, having the muffler pressure feed the tank.

    one spark from the exhaust and POOF! No??

    Still, I'm interested in it...

    Bill S.
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  5. #30
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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    bogbeagle,
    There are a few oils being tested, in any case the final choice will still be one that is easily obtained.

    Hi Ed,
    If you are asking if just the head can be used to convert a regular engine, the answer is no. There are too many differences in how the two fuels burn.

    Bill,
    As to going "poof", would you drop a match into Nitromethane? The idea of a spark making it's way all the way through the nipple, down the line and into the tank are almost nil. Remember the nipple just pressurizes the line. The air still travels through the line at about the same speed as the fuel going from the tank to the carb, so maybe 2 minutes to reach the tank.

    Bill

  6. #31
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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    I'll go out on a limb here and say that I think the major difference is the plug itself where the coil is made from some material that has a catalytic reaction with petrol or possibly something in the oil seeing that the type of oil seems to be critical. Having just read CL's article on that Enya he came to much the same conclusion regarding the special oil needed too. I can't see the head itself making any difference because once the fuel is ignited (either petrol or methanol) they burn much the same. Combustion chamber shapes (and to a lesser extent even compression) can vary wildly from the old baffled piston type to smooth Schneurle ported heads yet all these types will run quite happily on either fuel so long as they have the correct ignition (although spark is somewhat better with methanol but more complicated).

    The carb though has to be a little different to a normal carb because it has to regulate the fuel flow within much stricter limits than you can get away with using methanol. Basically this just needs a more finely tapered needle along with fine threads but still leaves the problem of avoiding fuel draw change during flight from full to empty tank and attitude changes of the model. I have no idea how they've overcome this especially with apparently a larger carb bore than usual which would reduce fuel draw and no means of regulating fuel pressure.

    However if it works as claimed then it's very interesting. I might add that I have a Norvel 15, 25 and 40 .

  7. #32
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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    Hi downunder
    They seem to have solved the plug issue quite well. I think they have spent a good amount of time working out the fuel draw and metering on the carb as I am using a long octagon tank and a crap trap filter and it still doesn't go lean even at the top of a vertical 8 and doesn't flood out or flame out when I chop it to idle on the down lines. You can see and hear on the video, even when I come across field at an idle thenthrottle up and go vertical it behaves quite nicely. I've tried to find flaws but it just runs no matter what manuvers I throw it into. I guess I can't ask for too much more.

    If your 15 or 25 is a single needle carb you already know they tend to do a pretty precise job of designing the metering on their carbs.

  8. #33

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    I am so intrigued regarding this engine..  Cant wait to see prices, specs, availability, etc.

    Craig.
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  9. #34
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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    And NO....... ignition module, wire, or spark plug!

  10. #35

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    Is it possible to use petrol in a wholly compression-ignition engine?

    I think that it may be, but that the fuel would be inclined towards detonation.

  11. #36
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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    ORIGINAL: bogbeagle
    Is it possible to use petrol in a wholly compression-ignition engine?
    That's how our model "diesel" engines work except they use kerosene instead of petrol. However kero (or petrol) by itself would need huge compressions to autoignite so it's mixed with ether which autoignites at quite low compressions. When the ether burns it ignites the kero.

  12. #37

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


    ORIGINAL: Ernie Misner

    And NO....... ignition module, wire, or spark plug!


    Well, no offense intended to anyone, but I'll believe it when I personally see it run. In other words, I'm from Missouri.


    Ed Cregger
    \"Practice makes prefect\"

    Saito Club Member #52

  13. #38
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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    No offense taken Ed
    That's pretty much been how everyone up at the field has been, myself included at first. I was so convinced I would need a constant glow source that I originally installed an onboard glow system to make sure I wouldn't lose the plane. Turns out they were right and we were wrong. It just keeps running flight after flight, from 95 degree days with 95% humidity to the nice cool weather we have been getting now. I haven't touched the low speed needle from those temp extremes either.

  14. #39

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    Subscribed!
    I for one hope that this turns out to be the new technology that it appears to be, very interesting.
    Too much power is just right!

  15. #40

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    Hi there hllywdb
    how did you manage to get hold of the engine ? Are you connected to the Russian mafia ? Cheers from the pope now in witness protection !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  16. #41

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    hllywdb,
    I had to read and re-read your original post as I thought you were referring to a glow engine...this engine/concept sounds very interesting....I have subscribed to the thread and I am anxiously awaiting your full blown review...

  17. #42

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    Apparently, there is an exothermic reaction between ordinary petrol and platinum ... in much the same way as there is with methanol.

    I don't know whether that reaction is equally vigorous.

  18. #43

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    ORIGINAL: bogbeagle

    Apparently, there is an exothermic reaction between ordinary petrol and platinum ... in much the same way as there is with methanol.

    I don't know whether that reaction is equally vigorous.

    There is an interesting article published in the Australian Control line News mid 2000's by a chap called Lance Smith which describes his experiments with Ethanol as a Methanol substitute
    in glow fuel for C/L B Class Team Racers.

    Australian Methylated Spirits is now 95% Ethanol with the rest probably Methanol with a little water.

    I tried the fuel mix in a plain bearing Norvel 25. The fuel was 10% Nitro, 20% Red Klotz and 70% Methylated Spirits

    Lance's technique required increasing the compression slightly, and fitting a hot plug.

    The Norvel hand-started slightly less well, was down about 200 rpm but ran for about 15% longer on 30 cc of fuel using a standard design c/l venturi.

    Further increasing the compression and fitting an ultra hot buggy turbo plug may have improved the performance.

    Clearly the Catalytic reaction also works with Ethanol.

    From the description of the Petrol powered Norvel 40 given above I'd guess that a further increase in cylinder compression,

    and a new design even hotter glow plug may be all that's necessary.

    Worth experimenting with.

    B Class Team Race Glow fuel optimized for range (30 cc tanks) often contains 10-20% petrol replacing that much Methanol.

    A famous UK TR fuel from the 1960's called "Taylor Brew" contained zero Methanol.

    It's worth reading about Lance's fuel experiments in back copies of ACLN available on the web.

    Ray

  19. #44

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    Definitely worth a bit of experimentation. I have some petrol "on order" as we speak.

    However, petrol's autoignition point is much lower than methanol's ( I think) ... so that suggests to me that a lower CR would be appropriate, so as to prevent pre-ignition.

  20. #45

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine


    ORIGINAL: bogbeagle

    Definitely worth a bit of experimentation. I have some petrol ''on order'' as we speak.

    However, petrol's autoignition point is much lower than methanol's ( I think) ... so that suggests to me that a lower CR would be appropriate, so as to prevent pre-ignition.

    Indeed!

    Lance also wrote extensively in ACLN about pre-ignition and methods of preventing it.

    Back copies of ACLN are available for download here: http://www.dkd.net/clmodels/currnews.html


    Ray

  21. #46

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    Thanks very much for the info. It'll take me a while to absorb it.

    I have an old Enya .60 2-stroke that I don't care about. That ought to do for an experimental platform.

    You'd never believe ... just a few weeks' back, I gave away the last half-gallon of my petroil mix, thinking, "I'll never need that stuff."

    Doesn't that always happen?

  22. #47
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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    There is a bigger difference in the fuels than you think. When I tried the standard nitro carb, I could make it run at a given throttle setting, say WOT, but at a lower performance level, most likely due to poor atomization. But if I moved the throttle things degraded quickly.

    Back in the day I lived close to one of Morroso's drag strips. Many of the local stations carried racing fuel, Cam2 was one of the more popular ones and I ran it in some of my motorcycles and somewhat "less than legal" street cars (I had a lengthy ticket for illeagal equipment that included running M&H wrinkle wall tires that I kept for a long time.) To take advantage of it you needed at least 11:1 CR and an adjustable advance curve, if you filled up mom's station wagon with it you actually got less performance. It has a nice sweet odor to it when running as well. (Yes I was paying $4 a gallon for gas 30 years ago)

    One of the stations had more of a performance brew closer to 112 octane and I belive included some methanol. This required some major jetting and fuel curve changes. If you had a Holley carb you could get it done, but the guys with the Rochesters had a rough go of it. Vapor lock was always an issue and even the pumps at the station had a hard time pumping it into your car in the summer. Then you had the guys running alchol/nitro but usually with a blower and Hilborne fuel injection, which gave you much better control over fuel/air mixture. Still not fool proof, if you've even seen a blower explosion on a nitro car it's a spectacular experience.

    In R/C, the guys running the supercharged YS motors have a better idea of how much R&D goes into their fuel systems, as it's reflected in the price tag.

  23. #48

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    Yes, I've experimented with, petrol, spark-ignition and a "glow" carb. The results were not great, but I found that it was possible to get good performance at specific throttle settings ... so, I could maybe tune for high rpm, but have an unsatisfactory idle. And the carb adjustment was very sensitive.

    I have a few Walbros kicking around. IF I can get a standard engine running on petroil, it would be worth the time spent in knocking up a manifold, such that a Walbro could be fitted.

    Lots of "ifs, buts and maybes". The worst I can do is wreck an engine that's worth a tenner.


  24. #49

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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    You wouldn't try to blow a little smoke up us would you?

    A manufacturer, even a Russian, isn't going to trust a test to an amateur to make or break his product. It would be tested by a pro, with a long track record and would be presented for peer review just like any other scientific paper in a professional publication like MAN who could check the facts before publication. You've got too many holes in your argument.

    I don't have time to cover all your errors but will cover one. Oil companies like Exxon and others order different "blends" of fuel from the same refinery, one that meets their needs for the customer.

  25. #50
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    RE: Testing the new NV (Norvel) .40 size (6.5cc) gasoline glow engine

    Hi straightarrow,
    Actually, it has been my experience that with the exception of Amaco white and a couple of others, most blends today are the same fuel and the "additives" are actually poured into the tanker truck as it leaves the distribution point. There is simply not enough local storage for all of them to have their own "custom blended" fuels. To boot, many local stations will also accept partial loads of over-orders from any brand. The old Sunoco fuels were actually blended at the pump to achieve the different octane ratings. That's how you had the choice of 6 fuels with only 3 tanks in the ground.

    But no matter as the comment I made was that the motor cared little which brand of fuel I used.

    I think most manufacturers try to get lots of field testing done on their motors in as many different locations and climates long before they go to final production, after which would be when they would send a motor to someone in the press for review. If you are not interested in how this motor is doing, no harm done, you can unsubrcribe to the thread and wait for the eventual release and read a "proper" review. I do not propose to be the end all of knowledge on this, I just thought others might be interested in this development and how it was performing for me. I apologise if somehow I come across to you as something different. But you can read my posts on many other areas in the RCU forums and judge for yourself.


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