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The end of small glow engines

Old 06-25-2014, 12:53 PM
  #101  
jester_s1
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I got to see a side by side comparison at the last SPA match I attended. A guy had a Dirty Birdy ARF converted to electric among 3 other Dirty Birdy ARFs that were glow powered. The electric DB had better acceleration than any of the 2 stroke planes (not that that is a big deal in SPA, but it did have it) and was at least as fast. It didn't look any more heavily loaded than the glow planes; if anything it looked a bit more nimble. It didn't suffer a bit in vertical performance, but to be fair the 2 stroke DB's with the Jett mufflers didn't either. The plane was very competitive. Yes, setup and pilot skill are much bigger factors than the power system, but the point is that the electric pilot suffered no disadvantages. And that's with just an ARF conversion. If a designer were to take the DB shape and lighten it up in those areas that were originally built a little tougher to handle the glow vibration, another 3-4 ounces could probably come off of the plane. And as batteries continue to get lighter, the weight advantage would continue to increase from where it is now.

I don't mean to start a versus conversation by saying any of this. I simply mean to show that for the first time since RC planes were invented, there is an alternative to glow power for these midsize models that at least matches its performance and sometimes exceeds it. That's why glow is declining- a cleaner and more convenient alternative exists that we would have used all along had we had it.
Old 06-25-2014, 02:01 PM
  #102  
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Well although I like electrics too. The allure of glow engines or gasoline engines still draws me back to them. Having the ability to adjust a internal combustion engine and have it fly a plane nicely still makes me feel good. Plus sometimes you just miss that aroma of castor oil wafting by from the engine that is running that just helps make it a great day.
I started flying electrics way back in 1978 when you had to use resistors and car 550 motors etc. Car 6 and 7 cell sub-C nicads were it at the time. So I have been pretty amazed at the progress for them. it was in 1980 that I flew a hotliner that used 36 nicads in series and a scary big German made motor with a folding prop on it. The hotliners of today are much smaller and weigh a lot less too.
But electrics have come a long way though and they will continue to make advancements with electrics too.

Last edited by earlwb; 06-25-2014 at 02:05 PM.
Old 06-25-2014, 02:05 PM
  #103  
JohnBuckner
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
Great post John, but I believe CL was boosted earlier and perhaps more by Brodak in the early to mid 90's. Then when Hobbico came out with their CL ARF's Brodak came out with better ones.

Absolutely true SP but Brodaks is one of those cottage industry suppliers and not the a mainstream supplier that commanded so much of the market even then. That is why I left them out of my simple outline. I am a poor typist and only give way of my shop time begrudgingly


John
Old 06-25-2014, 02:26 PM
  #104  
JohnBuckner
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Originally Posted by jester_s1
- a cleaner and more convenient alternative exists that we would have used all along had we had it.

Wow really we all would have used it? That is just about as callous and arrogant statement one could possibly make in this forum. It sounds just like a statement one would expect from a high schooler but someone in between (your words) that sure destroys an creditability you may have had with me at any point.

Evangelical glow haters by any reasonable definition are those who will not rest until glow is dead, reminds of an old piece of wisdom something about if the shoe fits!


John
Old 06-25-2014, 03:08 PM
  #105  
PatrickCurry
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Glow users may be a dwindling group, but I think we're far more enthusiastic. How many people do you know who buy electric motors just to take them out of the box and play with them? How many electric motor "horders" do you know? Y'all can debate numbers and usability all day long, but I think it's all about personal preference and not really about performance. I have many electric planes and love them. But I don't feel passionate about them. If the day came that for whatever reason I couldn't fly my electric planes, I'd shrug my shoulders and go in and play with my electric trains or maybe buy an electric R/C car to fiddle with. If the day came that for whatever reason I couldn't crank and play with my little glow engines and smell that smell..... that'd break my heart. I'd feel like my family just stuck me in "the home". It would be another check mark off the list of things I enjoy living for. Laughing children, a friendly dog, big boobies, the smell of rain in the summer...... it'd break my heart if I couldn't tinker with my little engines any more.
Old 06-25-2014, 05:14 PM
  #106  
Sport_Pilot
 
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That's why glow is declining- a cleaner and more convenient alternative exists that we would have used all along had we had it.
I never thought of them as more convenient, but rather less. You either have to wait an hour (or more) to charge the battery or spend a bunch of money for extra batteries, and in a month or two you have one or more battery packs. With glo you just fill and go!
Old 06-25-2014, 05:16 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by JohnBuckner
Absolutely true SP but Brodaks is one of those cottage industry suppliers and not the a mainstream supplier that commanded so much of the market even then. That is why I left them out of my simple outline. I am a poor typist and only give way of my shop time begrudgingly


John
I have been to a control line meet to watch and there were a lot more Brodak planes than TF. Actually I don't think I even saw a TF CL model there.
Old 06-25-2014, 07:04 PM
  #108  
Axle Al
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Electrics have their place but untill they develope a much lighter battery, glow motors will still be the best power to weight ratio available. and when it comes to RPM? gas is not close
Old 06-25-2014, 07:19 PM
  #109  
Axle Al
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Theres no argument that glow is in decline. no need for lament. Lots of people can not tune and run glow. So now they have electric and gas.
Originally Posted by jester_s1
I don't lament the decline of glow power at all. Glow was what RC pilots used because it was the best thing they had. In many cases, it was the only practical thing they had. 30 years ago we didn't have brushless motors and lipo batteries, so electric couldn't compete on the low end. So modelers dealt with expensive fuel and little carburetor passages that got clogged with the tiniest pieces of dirt and engines that got gummy when they sat for a few months because that was the only thing that gave acceptable performance. On the big end, the only other option was to convert a chainsaw engine which require machine shop skills and tools that many didn't have. Even then, the result was an overweight and underpowered engine that was hard to start. Glow engines became ubiquitous not because they were wonderful, but because they were the only practical option for so long. Had we had DLE gassers and Rimfire motors 30 years ago, there would probably be zero glow engines in service today.
Old 06-25-2014, 07:23 PM
  #110  
Axle Al
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
I never thought of them as more convenient, but rather less. You either have to wait an hour (or more) to charge the battery or spend a bunch of money for extra batteries, and in a month or two you have one or more battery packs. With glo you just fill and go!
And you get more GO with GLOW with the most powerful fuel on earth---------NITRO!
Old 06-25-2014, 07:40 PM
  #111  
ira d
 
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Originally Posted by jester_s1
I don't lament the decline of glow power at all. Glow was what RC pilots used because it was the best thing they had. In many cases, it was the only practical thing they had. 30 years ago we didn't have brushless motors and lipo batteries, so electric couldn't compete on the low end. So modelers dealt with expensive fuel and little carburetor passages that got clogged with the tiniest pieces of dirt and engines that got gummy when they sat for a few months because that was the only thing that gave acceptable performance. On the big end, the only other option was to convert a chainsaw engine which require machine shop skills and tools that many didn't have. Even then, the result was an overweight and underpowered engine that was hard to start. Glow engines became ubiquitous not because they were wonderful, but because they were the only practical option for so long. Had we had DLE gassers and Rimfire motors 30 years ago, there would probably be zero glow engines in service today.
+1
Old 06-25-2014, 07:45 PM
  #112  
Axle Al
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Originally Posted by jester_s1
Electric is here to stay for two reasons: They outperform glow engines, and they are more convenient and reliable. Look at pattern flying- you'll occasionally see the venerable old OS 1.60 at a big match, but the vast majority in that sport have gone electric because of the better power to weight ratios and instant torque. EF-1 racing is growing with planes that easily outperform Q25 and Club 40 models. Even IMAC pilots are getting into the electric game because they can have a slight edge in power to weight ratios with the top of the line electric components. Most still use gas because it's so much cheaper, but the guys who don't care about the cost are quickly discovering the advantages. And, of course, for the newer pilots, buying a good charger is cheaper and simpler than buying a starter, battery, and glow driver. As said previously, the only place where glow really is still the best option is in the .40-.90 size planes because of the cost of electric and the poor performance of gas.
You make a lot of valid points scattered around alot. Kind of an odd grouping of examples and comparisons. I assume you prefer electric, fine. But answer me this make believe queston. You are going to ride a motorcycle and you have three choices. An electric powered, a Harley, or a superbike. Which ever one you choose says a lot about you and maybe when you see what most people would pick you might understand why many people still and allways will fly Nitro rc. Electric scooters are here to stay, hooray! big deal
Old 06-25-2014, 07:50 PM
  #113  
ira d
 
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Originally Posted by jester_s1
Electric is here to stay for two reasons: They outperform glow engines, and they are more convenient and reliable. Look at pattern flying- you'll occasionally see the venerable old OS 1.60 at a big match, but the vast majority in that sport have gone electric because of the better power to weight ratios and instant torque. EF-1 racing is growing with planes that easily outperform Q25 and Club 40 models. Even IMAC pilots are getting into the electric game because they can have a slight edge in power to weight ratios with the top of the line electric components. Most still use gas because it's so much cheaper, but the guys who don't care about the cost are quickly discovering the advantages. And, of course, for the newer pilots, buying a good charger is cheaper and simpler than buying a starter, battery, and glow driver. As said previously, the only place where glow really is still the best option is in the .40-.90 size planes because of the cost of electric and the poor performance of gas.
I agree but have noticed that smaller more powerful gas engines are coming out all the time, it seems that all the glow engines manufacturers and or distributors are not coming out with
new glow models but instead gas models.
Old 06-25-2014, 09:23 PM
  #114  
jester_s1
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I don't know what I said to make several people think I hate glow engines, especially to deserve the anger I'm seeing in John's posts. I said previously that I have several glow planes. I fly them and enjoy them. A big part of the appeal for me is that I like the noise. Another plus for me is that I don't have to bother with battery charging; I can keep flying as long as I have fuel. But I also can see what's plainly true right in front of me- that electric has improved to the point that it is practically a wash for performance. I can also plainly see that it's cleaner and more trouble free assuming you learn how to measure amp draw and prop your models right. For those reasons, I think electric will continue to grow as glow continues to decline. I'll still fly my glow planes for years to come, but will do so knowing that it's for the two reasons mentioned above and not because it's the best performing power system or the most "high tech."
Old 06-26-2014, 06:06 AM
  #115  
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It's a bummer if your glow driver dies on you. I was running one of my RC cars one day and found I had both of my glow drivers
but both were dead. Luckily I had a piece of copper tubing that fit over the glow plug post and a loose AA battery. Car engines have big heat sinks so the plug is recessed way inside the head. It worked well enough to fire the engine off to run 3 tanks. That's something a GlowHead would do.

Last edited by 1QwkSport2.5r; 06-26-2014 at 06:42 AM. Reason: Fixed typos. Damn autocorrect.
Old 06-26-2014, 06:28 AM
  #116  
JohnBuckner
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A very clever trackside solution indeed 1QuickSport2.5r. Something that stuck in my head from the Army that they called in official speak a field expedient

John
Old 06-26-2014, 06:45 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by JohnBuckner
A very clever trackside solution indeed 1QuickSport2.5r. Something that stuck in my head from the Army that they called in official speak a field expedient

John
A mans gotta do what a mans gotta do when he's jonesing to burn some nitro, right? Haha. That day I had to cut my running short because the tire glue didnt hold up very well to 3 tanks worth of 55-60mph runs.
Old 06-26-2014, 08:25 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by jester_s1
As said previously, the only place where glow really is still the best option is in the .40-.90 size planes because of the cost of electric and the poor performance of gas.
I didn't overlook anything. My opinion was that electrics would not dominate, and that they were not cheaper. I stand by that prediction and statement. Glow engines won't go away and electric is more expensive to buy.

All of the other hot button issues that were attributed to my comments miss the point. I have small electrics for indoor flying. This is the glow engine area, so we are probably going to have glow engine based preferences over wind, gas, electric, and turbine power. No need to let this hit your hot buttons guys.

Besides, who dictates "the best option" anyway? The answer is: each person has their own best option and the rest of our opinions don't matter. Mine happens to be glow engines are the "best option" for little, medium, or big. I don't care what anyone else thinks I should enjoy.

Again, keep in mind that this is the glow engine forum. You are going to get glow engine mentality comments here.

If I had wanted to stir up a war I would have pointed out that glow is safer and less likely to burn down your house/shop/garage/truck.
Old 06-26-2014, 10:46 AM
  #119  
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I only run small glow and diesel engines, from .020 to .15, and there are only advantages over the electric stuff, as I see it.
Electric has been around for a long time but I have never understood why anyone would like to remove the most fun part of the hobby...
Old 06-26-2014, 01:57 PM
  #120  
049flyer
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For some of us, tinkering with the motors is as big a part of the hobby as building and flying, The satisfaction of plug and play electrics just isn't there.

Sort of like the difference between enjoying a real wood burning fire in your fireplace or having a DVD of a fire on your big screen TV. Sure the wood burning fireplace is old school and a lot more effort but it's worth the trouble.

Some look at electrics in wonder that anyone would enjoy something that removes so much of what we think makes the hobby enjoyable and challenging.
Old 06-26-2014, 02:48 PM
  #121  
fiery
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People have been saying small diesel engines would die out and become extinct for 50 years.

They are still out there; and in more than one instance still available new.

It will be the same for glow. Sure, the market will contract, but there will always be a latent demand,

I see you can still buy miniature steam engines new. I could as a kid, and can still do so now.

There is nothing to panic about.
Old 06-26-2014, 03:00 PM
  #122  
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I can understand people enjoying electrics. I have a Spectra sailplane kit I will build one day,and it will have a good outrunner for sure.

There's a small group of old timers around here who fly big foam creations and they're a hoot to watch. I like my indoor Blade MCX heli and the Vapor for indoor too.

I can see the fun factor and wouldn't want anyone to miss out on it.
Old 06-26-2014, 03:29 PM
  #123  
JohnBuckner
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The only absolutely undeniable positive I can say about the current rash of electrics on the market is this has provided a wonderful plethora of new designs, designs that are quite lite for conversion back to Glow! Ye Ha. So yes my hearing and olfactory nerves will be so much happier with sweet sounds and fabulous scents.

John
Old 06-26-2014, 05:23 PM
  #124  
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I have a Cap 231 that is electric. I did enjoy it at first but miss the sound of a engine on it. People like us that like the piston engine sounds would be more likely to fly electric if they had a neat sound. MY POINT...is it not very possible to have a electronic devise to install on a electric airplane to imitate the sound of the size of the engine being used? Hey this is the modern age...lets get on with this. The real big electric planes do have a neat sound from the prop...but is beyond a lot of folks budget!
Old 06-26-2014, 06:46 PM
  #125  
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It is a great time to be in the hobby as you do have the choice of power. I have seen some guys that just can't get a glow to perform acceptably. Gas gets better everyday. Electrics certainly have a place in my hanger. I try to choose the best application for each and happily use all 3. I do have a favorite, as I'm sure we all like one the best. I just hope people can go to the field and enjoy flying together instead of approving the choice of power they are using ( that seems to matter altogether to much to some) . I do have a pretty short attention span when someone tries to push their preference on me. I tend to give people credit when they use their choice of power exemplary. The ones that just talk they talk are left in the dust by those who walk the walk. I really enjoy spending a day with guys who love flying...

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