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The end of small glow engines

Old 07-03-2014, 10:37 AM
  #176  
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I just looked at Tower and clicked view all on glow engines. The list was long but most were car engines. Noted that Tower engines still said "Temporarily out of production" but ST engines said order pending.

LOL the list included a couple of steam engines!
Old 07-03-2014, 10:54 AM
  #177  
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I was surprised to see the Thunder Tiger 46Pro come back in stock. I would like to see the rest of the line come back too. And Super Tigre , and GMS etc etc.
Old 07-03-2014, 11:51 AM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by blw
I still don't think electrics can compete. Not for dominance in the long run. It's still going to be a glow and gas world for outdoor flying. I think most of the "electric is cheaper" claims have disappeared too.

That and the fact that anything "electrics" loses its value instantly... You can still get $20 for a 10 year old Glow engine.
Old 07-03-2014, 01:05 PM
  #179  
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It's only been in the last year or two that Tower seems to always be out of stock on various glow engines like the Tower brand and GMS and super tiger. As I understand it all these engines
are made in the same factory but I have to wonder if Tower is feeling out the market before ordering a production run.
Old 07-03-2014, 06:30 PM
  #180  
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Personally, I think Thunder Tiger has engines available but Tower hasn't ordered any. I made an inquiry.
Old 07-03-2014, 11:08 PM
  #181  
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Hi All, thought I would jump in here after reading most of this thread. Electrics are what got me back into model airplanes around April of this year. I saw "how cheap" there were and started at the lowest end with something I could take to a local park to fly - a foamie. It attracted so much positive attention there I am sure there were some that actually did look up the brief info I gave them , on the internet when they got home later. Quiet, clean and quick to setup/store. That led to full on binging in the RC world for me - all this in the last 3 months. I started seeing all the great buys on glow engines, planes and total setups and got caught up with buying a few on rcgroups, ebay and craigslist items. It is a good time for a guy like me - the converts to electric are bailing out of their glow inventory. Check out flitetest.com if you aren't aware of what is causing a major surge in electrics. These guys have really packaged up the sport well with well-produced videos, around 425 at last count. You can build a high-performance electric out of a couple sheets Dollar Tree Foamboard - $DT - and reuse all the electrics after smashed the plane enough that you can't repair. And packing tape is your major method of repair.

However! Over a brief amount of time I have seen two major constraints of electric - 1) the cost of performance batteries, esc's and motors is - let's say for argument - at par with the cost of glow, and 2) the safety factor of Lipo's. I have become really concerned about Lipos just going off - catching on fire - with little provocation. When one of the most popular videos on Youtube is "how to build your Lipo bunker" you have to stop and ask yourself, "Are little electric airplanes worth risk of burning my house down?" I keep my Lipos in a steel box in my garage, now. I don't bring them into the house, although I do charge in my basement under total supervision. You can't trust those little suckers.

A major MAJOR positive of electrics is that I don't think you have to belong to a club if that is all you want to fly. You can go to your local soccer complex and fly a 60-equivalent electric powered plain and I think people will be generally attracted. You can't do that with glow. The noise of the glow engines relegates them to model club fields.

I like the "energy" around the electric powered RC world. I guess you'd call that "buzz." HobbyKing and a few others are offering cheap cheap cheap prices in the smaller sized electrics - but I still am paying $22 for the largest motor before you get into the glow-equivalents like Turnigy 10's through 120's. Lipos don't last forever and the tech keeps advancing so you have to rebuy to keep up - probably, just as expensive if not more than nitro. And I love the smell of castor oil.

So, to a guy like me, both is good. Someone entering the hobby through electrics needs to have a good nitro friend to show them how to get into it - glow is neither as difficult or mysterious as I think pure electric guys believe.
I have to follow up with you'all on how to keep the cost of nitro down and picking it up at next winter's RC expos is one way, and brewing my own sounds like another.

Cheers & CAVU
Old 07-04-2014, 02:13 AM
  #182  
flyoz
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beautiful little plane. great colours The sig for star i meant earlier in the post.
Old 07-04-2014, 05:34 AM
  #183  
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BrightGarden- welcome to the hobby. I'm glad you've discovered the fun of planes, and it looks like you've explored the niches of both small and bigger planes. I'm going to address two things you said though, because I think you are missing some details.
First, lipos aren't that dangerous. They don't burst into flames for no reason. Very early in the lipo history, you had guys who would use NiCd type chargers to charge them. If you overcharge Lipos, they start to heat up as all batteries do. But that's a particular big problem for Lipos because the material inside the battery is flammable and the pack is contained in that foil bag material. So they'll burst at some point as you've probably seen in YouTube videos. Yes, there is the rare freak accident when one goes off and the user doesn't know why, but they are generally quite safe if you charge them right and dispose of damaged ones. I had some old ones that couldn't put out enough amps to be useful anymore, so I did some testing. I charged both to full charge and beat one of them with a hammer until it was about twice as wide as it should be. The bags burst open, but it didn't burn. Surprising. Then I stabbed number 2 with a screwdriver, and it went off pretty good. I got a 2 foot tall flame from it which lasted a few seconds. I figured out that it's the short circuit creating heat that make it burn. And for number 3, I wired the two main leads together and stood back. It swelled quickly and popped like a firecracker before bursting into flames. So it's important to use power leads that won't let the battery accidentally short, don't stab them with screwdrivers, and make sure to charge them properly.
The second thing is a bigger safety concern, and that is flying in areas not designated for RC. If you are in an area where it's normally ok for people to walk around, people will walk around right under the area where you are flying. And with the lack of noise of many electric planes, they may well not know there is any danger. People have an amazing ability to be oblivious to their surroundings, so you can't take for granted that they'll see your plane and not go walking right into the flight path. Yes, there have been accidents where people were seriously injured by a pilot doing exactly what you are describing. In every case, an RC pilot was using a nice wide open space to fly his planes that was normally used for something else. So if you are going to fly at soccer fields or public parks and such, it is 100% your duty to the public to be sure that there are no people in your flying area. Make sure anyone who is around sees you and knows what you are doing. And preferably, use a spotter to be sure that no one wanders out into your flying area while you are focused on your plane. If you haven't already, read the AMA safety code and abide by it religiously. That document has kept RC pilots from having to deal with government regulation of our hobby for over 80 years now, and with the current FAA conversation going on it is absolutely vital that we all stay out of the news.
Good luck with continuing to explore the hobby.
Old 07-04-2014, 05:43 AM
  #184  
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Li-Ion batteries are more dangerous than Li-Po batteries are due to the electrolyte, but regardless they do require a large amount of care when charging and handling them. As long as the user knows what exactly he/she is dealing with and the precautions required to use/handle them, then there is little to worry about.
Old 07-04-2014, 02:19 PM
  #185  
049flyer
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I would not discount the danger Lipo batteries pose to the user.

There have been a multitude of fires caused by Lipo batteries, many are documented on this forum. Some are the result of oversight, but many are not. In many cases combustion resulted even though precautions were taken. Houses, garages, shops and cars have been burned to cinders by fires caued by Lipo batteries. The town I live in has almost 100,000 people and about 200 modelers. Over the past several years there have been OVER 10 serious fires JUST IN THIS AREA resulting in significant property damage, and in at least one case, lasting health problems from inhaling Lipo smoke and fumes.

Lipo batteries are dangerous and the slightest error on the part of the user or the slightest malfunction of the battery, cables, charger, connectors etc. can result in serious problems. If you are the type of person that NEVER makes a mistake, then good for you, charge and fly without worry (as many electric modelers do). If not then be very careful how you approach handling, charging and flying with these batteries. You should try to develop standard practices to minimize errors, for instance; will you buy a charger that charges any type pf battery or one that charges only Lipo batteries. As Jester mentioned some fires are started by selecting the wrong battery type on multi chemistry capable chargers.

NEVER EVER leave a Lipo unattended while charging, immediately after charging or immediately after discharging! I personally know an experienced DEVOTED electric modeler who was charging batteries in his garage using a LIPO ONLY charger, he left the garage to answer the phone and returned a few minutes later to a raging inferno. Recently an RCU member reported the destruction of his RV due to a Lipo battery. It seems he was charging while in his RV, the charger FINISHED charging the battery, he then left the RV to go shopping. The Lipo ignited and torched the RV.

A search on this forum will reveal the danger these batteries pose if not treated with the highest respect and care.

BrightGarden you are wise to be very careful with Lipo batteries and to keep them well away from people and things you treasure.

Personally, I prefer glow. Tried electrics, but they just didn't provide the same satisfaction for me and I just can't see myself sitting outside, away from the house watching a Lipo charge.

Last edited by 049flyer; 07-04-2014 at 02:39 PM.
Old 07-04-2014, 03:56 PM
  #186  
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My start in the RC world began at about 10 years old, when I used my summer grass mowing money to buy a US AirCore .40 Trainer. I had access to a Dave Brown simulator (pretty hot stuff at the time, with it's sheet metal box, polygon graphics, etc), and flew on that things every chance I got. I got the power core of the US AirCore trainer built and fuel proofed, and then my family moved. That model stayed in a box until I sold it a few months back, no more complete than it was when I put it away. Not being old enough to drive, plus the closest model airfield being 40 minutes away, was the demise of that.

At 16, however, I received a GWS Pico Stick kit and an old Futaba 7-channel radio (which never saw more than three channels being used, haha) as a Christmas gift from my parents. It was what I'd asked for that year, and I was tickled pink! I had that plane together within the next few days, did a few taxi tests in the street, and then that Saturday I hit the park. The idea was just to go do a few powered glides to get my CG set, but I started the plane down the slope leading to the retention basin that was our neighborhood park, and the darn thing took off! I was airborne, and nervous as ever, but the years of flying on that Dave Brown simulator paid off. I successfully landed it in one piece, and enjoyed that plane for years. I still have it, though it disrepair. I hope to get it flying again, if possible.

Fast forward to today. I'm older now, and have better transportation abilities (though I have to borrow the wife's car. Hauling build planes on a motorcycle's probably a little hard to do!). Despite getting my start with electric models (and still having quite a few kits and supplies for them), I still find myself highly interested in glow and diesel engines, primarily 2.49cc/.15ci or smaller at this point. I don't see my interest dropping off any time soon, either. Matter of fact, I've recently found a few CL plans on Outerzone that I'd like to build (for models down to my Cox .010!), and I'm waiting on a Cox .09 TD and a PAW80 CL engine in the mail. I enjoy all aspects of the hobby, and feel others should do the same. As previously mentioned, I don't feel that any aspect of the hobby will ever truly disappear. They may become cottage industries or small interest groups, but they'll never truly go away, and that's how it should be. We should be able to honor and appreciate where we've come from in the hobby, while still looking forward to what the future holds.

Last edited by KnifeEdge51; 07-04-2014 at 04:10 PM.
Old 07-04-2014, 06:46 PM
  #187  
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A lot of flyers are moving away from lipo in favor of the life battery which is a lot safer, If you charge a life pack wrong you may
ruin the pack but they don't explode like the lipo packs tend to.
Old 07-05-2014, 06:20 AM
  #188  
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I used an A123 battery in an old glider when the A123 was new. It was much better than the old NiCd, kind of bulky. It was still heavier than LiPo, but worked quite well on the Amptique. Hey, I still have that, I bet the batteries are still good after maybe 8 to10 years too. None of my LiPo's are. I bought the A123 copies after a LiPo burned on me.
Old 07-05-2014, 08:40 AM
  #189  
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A123 batteries were supposed to be the next big thing, but then development on them just fizzled. I think there was a problem with A123racing which was the company that made them to begin with. Lipos have caught up to A123 batteries for charge rate and discharge, and given the much greater variety of lipos they are still the best choice for powering electric models. I use 2 cell Lifes for my receiver packs, but I think it'll take a fair amount of development before A123 or Life batteries knock Lipos off their pedestal.
Old 07-05-2014, 10:55 AM
  #190  
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Just to complicate the entire issue.
I fly electric and nitro. All my electrics are Lipos and I have had little issue with any with the exception of the occasional puffy pack. I use safe charging practices and have never seen a pack burn even after thousands of charges (I even work in a hobby store and we charge them daily)
However I am a "nitro/glow" enthusiast. Cant we all just agree to use the terms Nitro and Glow interchangeably? really guys arguing about it? does it do the hobby any good? Some new guy comes on here looking for answers and you attack him for using a term?
I have over 60 engines in my collection from .020 to 1.5" and I love them, 2 strokes and 4, old and new.
If they stopped making new engines right now I probably wouldn't even be affected BUT I would hate to see it. I think all glow engines are incredible feats of engineering. It isn't just a hot filament causing the fuel to explode, its a catalytic reaction of the platinum in the filament. How cool is that?
And turning up at 15,000 rpm(or more) with ease? Like to see your Minvan do that.

In short the glow engine took the complex problem of the ignition system and solved it in the most simple but elegantly sophisticated way. that impresses me!
A gasoline engine requires a spark plug, coil, computer and timing elements .
A brushless motor requires a computerized ESC .
The glow engine? Needs a 1.5V battery to begin the process then you are off to the races.
I remember as a 10 year old my parents letting me loose with a 1.5V dry cell and a quart of fuel in a parking lot and I don't remember having much trouble getting the little .049 to start and fly the P40 to go round and round till I was dizzy.
Let the flaming begin.
Old 07-05-2014, 11:26 AM
  #191  
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Engines that burn gas but use a glow plug for ignition I think will be the next big thing, the current glow fuel engines I think will fade away.
Old 07-05-2014, 11:33 AM
  #192  
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Don't they require a special oil?
Old 07-05-2014, 02:10 PM
  #193  
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Diesels are the most logical way to go (or stay), doesn't require any type of ignition or glow plug. The only battery needed is for the radio, but that could be fixed with a generator...
Old 07-05-2014, 02:30 PM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by ira d
Engines that burn gas but use a glow plug for ignition I think will be the next big thing, the current glow fuel engines I think will fade away.

Not sure why you would use gas except for larger planes. Power would be way down.
Old 07-05-2014, 04:01 PM
  #195  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
Not sure why you would use gas except for larger planes. Power would be way down.
The gasoline glow plug guys usually are bashing the "slimer" glow engines but those glow plug gas engines aren't much different in the slime department. The Norvel .40 gasoline glow engine requires 14% castor oil, no synthetic. That's a load of slime right there... Then the next argument is the cost. Gasoline is cheaper than glow fuel. True, but the glow plugs are almost twice as expensive for the gasoline glow engines. In the long run, I see it as being close to a wash when you compare electric, glow, and gasoline power plants. I say this taking into account used engines are worth less than half of what they were new so resale is poor. Then to buy new gasoline engines or new electric stuff... It adds up quickly.
Old 07-05-2014, 08:20 PM
  #196  
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CDI ignitions have made small gassers much more viable. I don't think there will ever be a commercially produced gas engine that ignites using a driven glow plug, because a CDI unit can do the job for a 1/3 ounce weight penalty. There's just no reason to do it.

But I do agree that gassers will continue to eat away at glow from the top. The first generation of .60 size gas engines have been on the market for a few years now, and they aren't bad. I expect they'll improve with time as glow engines did, so we very well could see .40-.60 size gassers that can match glow in the power to weight department within the next 5 years or so. They'll probably do it at lower RPM which means a new learning curve on prop selection, but they'll do it.
Old 07-05-2014, 08:55 PM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by jeffie8696
Don't they require a special oil?
I sure they would require two stroke oil just like the current gas engines.
Old 07-05-2014, 08:58 PM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by jester_s1
CDI ignitions have made small gassers much more viable. I don't think there will ever be a commercially produced gas engine that ignites using a driven glow plug, because a CDI unit can do the job for a 1/3 ounce weight penalty. There's just no reason to do it.

But I do agree that gassers will continue to eat away at glow from the top. The first generation of .60 size gas engines have been on the market for a few years now, and they aren't bad. I expect they'll improve with time as glow engines did, so we very well could see .40-.60 size gassers that can match glow in the power to weight department within the next 5 years or so. They'll probably do it at lower RPM which means a new learning curve on prop selection, but they'll do it.

Enya and OS are already making glow ignition gas engines the big plus is you can ditch the cdi ignition and battery.
Old 07-05-2014, 09:09 PM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by Sport_Pilot
Not sure why you would use gas except for larger planes. Power would be way down.
The smaller gas engines at least the ones I have seen perform just fine, Now if you need a racing engine tuned pipe and all glow fuel may be the way to go.

When I got in the hobby 20 yr's ago there were a lot of people running tuned pipes and ducted fan engines also Rossi and Dub Jett engines were popular
but I have not seen any of these engines or set up's in years.
Old 07-06-2014, 03:55 AM
  #200  
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The average guy may not notice a 30% power loss, but a lot of us would. Glow will never die no matter how much some hate it.. The did hards will keep it going for several generations to come. It's popularity will dwindle some I'm sure, but it will never go by the wayside.

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