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Why I'm going back to glow

Old 09-03-2015, 01:30 PM
  #76  
Sport_Pilot
 
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What I don't understand is how you came up with 20% more thrust
I didn't come up with it, that is what the prop thrust calculator came up with.
Old 09-03-2015, 01:39 PM
  #77  
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. It wouldn't even be 8%
It will be greater because thrust is to the square of the change in velocity. The formula is F = .5 * r * A * [Ve ^2 - V0 ^2] where Ve is the air velocity downstream of the prop and V0 is the velocity upstream of the the prop. However there is a loss from drag on the prop to the square of the surface area of the prop, but the latter is a smaller number.
Old 09-03-2015, 02:41 PM
  #78  
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As I understand it, Sanye manufactures the ASP and Magnum lines among many others, but they do not brand any of them as Sanye. The ASP line is pretty much identical to the Magnum other than some subtle brand icons on the crankcase a and such. The ASP line is marketed for Europe and Asia (pretty much anywhere BUT the USA) and the Magnum line is marketed for the U.S. market. ASP is generally setup for low/no nitro and the Magnums are setup for higher nitro. No surprise you didn't note a big rpm hit when dropping the nitro and oil content. You lose rpm when you drop the nitro but gain some rpm with the lower oil content (and also advanced ignition timing as well). I suspect you would notice a higher hit on power if you ran an engine sans nitro (unmodified) that was designed to use 10-15% nitro. I would question longevity using low oil (such as 10-12%), especially if it gets run lean a few times. RC car engines use 6-12% oil and 20-40% nitro typically, but even with the high nitro (and subsequent higher oil volume), longevity is usually limited to 3-6 gallons of fuel and even less in a racing engine/vehicle. Car engines don't have near the load put on them that aircraft engines do so the extra oil usually makes them run a bit rough and sluggish. Aircraft engines are under load at all times and the higher oil really helps keep them alive longer. I've gone as low as 8% oil and 30% nitro and the crankcase was bone dry inside. No residual oil inside when set just slightly rich. If I run 11-12% oil (castor is what I use in most of my fuel; rarely do I use synthetic oil except in my Jett's) there is often residual oil inside the crankcase when set at a slightly rich mixture. The bearings survive a fair bit longer with more oil too.
Old 09-04-2015, 12:02 AM
  #79  
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Sanye also make SC brand which is the same as all the others mentioned . The poms seem to get them with the ASP's .Here in Aus we used to get the Magnums but I dont think there imported anymore so its ASP from the likes of Hobbyking etc . Cheers the pope
Old 09-04-2015, 07:23 AM
  #80  
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Hi!
I think most flyers that has competed in ,let's say, pylon racing or has been sport flying long enough can easily detect an rpm change of
50-100 rpm without using a tach.
And nitro...We use it both to have more power and make our glow engines more easy to set and run reliable.
Old 09-04-2015, 08:01 AM
  #81  
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Hello guys!

My question is: Do manufacturers use synthetic oil in the blend purely for saving money (since synthetic oil is cheaper than castor oil)?

If so - it's reasonable to use only castor oil when mixing on your own.
But if synthetic oil does add some benefits in the mix - what about trying the following blend:
5% nitro, 10% castor oil, 3-5% synthetic oil, 80-82% methanol - then you can enjoy all worlds...

I'd be glad to hear some thoughts and/or experiments.

Have a good weekend,
Bambook
Old 09-04-2015, 09:04 AM
  #82  
JPMacG
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Castor is less expensive than synthetic - about 2/3 the price. Manufacturers use synthetic not to save money but because that is what modelers want. Running castor does tend to gum up engines and castor residue is harder to clean off airplanes than synthetic. But if you don't mind those inconveniences then you can save money by running castor.

Many commercial fuels are a blend of synthetic and castor. It is supposed to give the best of both worlds. The synthetic prevents gumming and the castor adds high temperature protection. I have noticed myself that a 50/50 blend totaling 20% will not gum up my carbs in storage nor deposit brown gunk on my mufflers. But running just castor does both.
Old 09-04-2015, 11:54 AM
  #83  
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I don't want to start any war on oil types. I just want to let you friends in the US know that 10-12% oil is the norm in Europe for many fliers. The reason is, we have different types of oil available here in Europe than you guys in the US. Why, I don't know. Aerosave oil, for instance, has viscosity index higher than that of castor oil. I myself run my engines (currently Saito FA-125a and Laser 300v and 240v) on 10% Aerosave and 5% nitro. By the way, Laser engines say 10% good quality oils is fine for Laser engines.
Old 09-04-2015, 12:04 PM
  #84  
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Those European oils are really good but horribly expensive in the U.S. To the tune of about $80/gal for Motul Micro. If we could get that stuff cheaper, we'd all use that.
Old 09-04-2015, 12:39 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by 1QwkSport2.5r
Those European oils are really good but horribly expensive in the U.S. To the tune of about $80/gal for Motul Micro. If we could get that stuff cheaper, we'd all use that.
I think your problem is that you are so used to inexpensive prices on most products As everything is expensive in Europe we don't think of prices that much, I guess..
Old 09-04-2015, 12:54 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by AeroFinn
I think your problem is that you are so used to inexpensive prices on most products As everything is expensive in Europe we don't think of prices that much, I guess..
Well, in my part of the country, glow fuel prices are right around $30-36 USD per gallon for commercially made fuels. Other parts of the country it's a bit cheaper. If I used the Motul oil in my fuel (been mixing my own for several years now), the cost per gallon would be very close to the store bought fuels which hurts my hobby budget when I burn several gallons a season. I'm a bit of a cheapskate, so using $25/gallon castor oil is much cheaper (and works well) than using $40/gallon American synthetics and especially cheaper than the $80/gallon European oils. Now don't take that as me taking shots on the Euro oils, I'd use them if they were cheaper. Quality costs money, I know, but $50 worth of oil that works about as good (or slightly less) for a season than $160 worth of oil means I have $110 to put towards other models.
Old 09-04-2015, 05:17 PM
  #87  
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I mix my own fuel and always use 30% nitro and Coolpower MV oil.

For fuel with 10% oil it costs me around $22.30 aud/$15.60 usd a gallon.
For fuel with 20% oil it's around $28.80 aud/$20 usd a gallon.
Old 09-04-2015, 05:19 PM
  #88  
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Nitro, Electric, Gas....They all have their benefits in one area or another...I've flown a lot of all of them and still own all three types...My electrics get flown when its lighter winds and I want something easy to toss in the car and fly whenever...Not a fan of larger 20 plus percent models as the 6-12 cell stuff gets a little finicky and I'd rather fly gas that I personally feel is more reliable in large expensive birds. I've always loved my nitro engines weather 2 or 4 strokes...BUT I cannot stand the smelly messy methanol/castor/synthetic fuels.
The negatives for me is the different engines I run require different fuels such as 0% FAI in my Moki's, 10-20% in most of my 2 stroke Nitro's and 30-40% in most of my four strokers. Obviously the 4 strokers can run less nitro but tend to be more finiky and stall at low RPM's with less nitro. ( I know I know...Tuning you will say. Trust me...I tune my models to the knats ass)
Plus the Nitro fuels for me tend to go south in a shorter amount of time and also if not extremely well kept will draw moisture to the fuel. I also dislike having to run after run oils through the nitro's if they will sit around for any extended amount of time after being run as the castor will gum up and lock up the piston/sleve requiring a tear down to clean and service the engine before next use. But most of all is those darn glow plugs and never ending dead igniters. Run a nitro a touch lean and eat a 5-8 dollar glow plug. Heck I have 5-6 planes on the wall that are locked up solid from sticky nitro fuels that I did run after run oil in.

Gas planes use 30-35 less fuel..Never worry about blowing a spark plug from running lean. Fuel will have near twice the shelf life for me, I run amsoil Saber at 100:1 with 87 octane...That's about $2.90 a gallon mixed and using 30-35% less fuel than nitros makes cost of use much lower...plus every corner sells my 97 octane gasoline. I run both CDI and electronic ignitions on my gassers and other than the easier starting from a Electronic ignition I really could care less because the weight difference is almost a wash. CDI vs Ignition module, switch and battery. Plus no need to charge anything with CDI! Best of all....My planes stay MUCH cleaner!!!
Just putting my $.02 out there guys...not bashing Nitro...I love them all...But gassers is the clear winner for me...I'll be sticking with Gas.
Old 09-04-2015, 05:30 PM
  #89  
049flyer
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Originally Posted by psgugrad
http://www.bulkapothecary.com/raw-in...ls/castor-oil/

16.67/Gallon plus $10 shipping from OH to IL. If you're in TX you'll likely pay a tad more for shipping, but it's still a great price
Thanks for the vendor for castor! You were right on the money, $27.00 delivered for a gallon. I emailed them with a question before I made the purchase, I wanted to know if the castor was "degummed" . I was assured that it was so now I'm set to go!

Thanks again.
Old 09-04-2015, 06:40 PM
  #90  
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bzyguy-

Many of your issues with glow seem to be related to the diversity of powerplants you choose to use. However your use of gas does not seem to be as diverse. You seem to simplify matters by using only a limited size of models that all burn a single octane of fuel with a single blend of oil. I like simple too!

I pursue a similar path towards simplicity with my glow engines. 1/2A engines aside, I run only a single brand of engine, all of a similar size, all 2 stroke, using a single brand and style of glow plug, and a single blend of fuel. I use a glow ignitor that only requires charging twice a year or so and I only mix 1 quart of fuel at a time to keep it fresh. My glow plugs last for a year or more each and I never use after run oil as I run 100% castor oil and have never had issues with rust inside my engines. If my engines get a little stiff hanging on the wall I just heat them up a bit with my heat gun, squirt a bit of fuel or ATF in the intake and flip over a few times. Easy peasy!

For me gas engines have no attraction whatsoever. They stink whether they are running or not, they are expensive and require other more expensive things like more expensive airframes, expensive more powerful servos, larger props, and larger vehicles and trailers to haul them around. For me, saving a few dollars on gasoline based model fuel versus glow fuel would end up costing me thousands.

Although I live in a humid environment I can't recall ever having problems with fuel like you describe. I'm surprised that you had problems with water in your fuel given your much drier climate.

I'm happy that gas has allowed you to simplify things and increased your enjoyment of the hobby. Glow CAN be even simpler if you choose to make it so.
Old 09-04-2015, 07:23 PM
  #91  
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There are many who say that fuel goes off. Fuel doesn't go off, it gets contaminated. I've had fuel, (gas and methanol), stored for years without any performance issues when used.

Methanol based fuels smell much better than gas. I have all my models, (gas and nitro), stored in my model room and I don't notice smells from any of them.

I also very rarely change glow plugs. Mostly it's because it's been so long, that I replace it as a matter of course.

049flyer - Only charge your glow driver twice a year. I presume you have the RCATS? That's the best thing I ever bought.

bzyguy01 - There's no need to run a separate battery/switch for ignition. I use the Tech Aero IBEC straight from the Rx and have never had a problem. CDI/electronic ignitions on nitro 4 strokes makes them much more fuel efficient and gives more mid range power. My CDI engines use around 1/2 the amount of fuel as the glow version. Still not as cheap as gas though.
Old 09-04-2015, 10:54 PM
  #92  
Bambook7
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JPmacG -

Thanks about the prices of castor and synthetic oil, I thought it was the other way around..

So using castor oil & synthetic oil in the blend let you enjoy benefits of both types, the question is the the proportions of those two in the mix.
I use mainly abc engines (Rossi, mvvs, sc) and for them I use Morgan Omega fuel 5%, which contains 17% oil, from which 30% castor and 70% synthetic.
That gives you 5.1% castor & 11.9% synthetic (out of total).
I add the amount of castor oil (of the quality Klotz Bennol) that gives me 6% of castor in the blend, and all my engines are happy with that for years now.

BUT, after reading this thread, my conclusion is that, first: maybe I use too much oil in my blend, and second: I should swap the proportions of castor & synthetic in my blend, meaning:
Maybe the blend should contain something like: 5% nitro. castor: between 8-10%, synthetic: 6-4% (14% lube on total), 81% methanol.

The thing is: is 4 to 6% of synthetic is enough to prevent the gumming phenomena in the engine?
Or maybe I should say: what's the minimum percentage of synthetic out of the total lube to prevent the gumming phenomena in the engine?
If one knows the answer to this, then no matter the amount of lube one uses in the blend (as long as it's above the engine minimum,off course ) - one just have to keep the right proportion inside lube blend..

So, did someone make some research\experiments about this proportion and have some insights regarding it?

Thanks!
Old 09-04-2015, 11:25 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Bambook7
JPmacG -

Thanks about the prices of castor and synthetic oil, I thought it was the other way around..

So using castor oil & synthetic oil in the blend let you enjoy benefits of both types, the question is the the proportions of those two in the mix.
I use mainly abc engines (Rossi, mvvs, sc) and for them I use Morgan Omega fuel 5%, which contains 17% oil, from which 30% castor and 70% synthetic.
That gives you 5.1% castor & 11.9% synthetic (out of total).
I add the amount of castor oil (of the quality Klotz Bennol) that gives me 6% of castor in the blend, and all my engines are happy with that for years now.

BUT, after reading this thread, my conclusion is that, first: maybe I use too much oil in my blend, and second: I should swap the proportions of castor & synthetic in my blend, meaning:
Maybe the blend should contain something like: 5% nitro. castor: between 8-10%, synthetic: 6-4% (14% lube on total), 81% methanol.

The thing is: is 4 to 6% of synthetic is enough to prevent the gumming phenomena in the engine?
Or maybe I should say: what's the minimum percentage of synthetic out of the total lube to prevent the gumming phenomena in the engine?
If one knows the answer to this, then no matter the amount of lube one uses in the blend (as long as it's above the engine minimum,off course ) - one just have to keep the right proportion inside lube blend..

So, did someone make some research\experiments about this proportion and have some insights regarding it?

Thanks!
I used to use 1% castor and even that amount would still gum the engine if let sitting for a period of time. It was also enough to stain as well.
I only use Coolpower MV in all my engines now and they stay very clean. There is no rust inside either.
Old 09-05-2015, 03:01 AM
  #94  
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drac1-

Yes, I use a RCAT glow driver. I've had it for about 5 or 6 years and it is the most useful piece of field equipment I own. The only problem is having to track it down from time to time at the field as all my friends love it too! I had the manufacturer increase the auto shut off time to 5 min so now it's even better for troubleshooting. Still on the original battery too. Expensive but worth every penny.
Old 09-05-2015, 03:11 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by 049flyer
drac1-

Yes, I use a RCAT glow driver. I've had it for about 5 or 6 years and it is the most useful piece of field equipment I own. The only problem is having to track it down from time to time at the field as all my friends love it too! I had the manufacturer increase the auto shut off time to 5 min so now it's even better for troubleshooting. Still on the original battery too. Expensive but worth every penny.
I find the standard auto shut off time is fine for me.

I got the 5 second delay version, which is perfect for YS four strokes.
Old 09-05-2015, 06:06 AM
  #96  
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I rarely burned out a glow plug, if I did that glow plug was probably 5 years old or more. The fuel smells like perfume and gas stinks. I love tinkering on engines, I rarely have to take it apart, but relish the work when I do. If you use pump gas the engine go to s@#$. So you have to pay more and it costs $5 mixed. Only a buck or two more to mix glow and a lot more power and no stink.

I have never had a gas engines, but I have more trouble with my gas edgers, trimmers, and blowers than I ever have with my glow engines so I do not care to try one.

Go to the gas forum if you are going to dis glow engines, you won't find many on your side here.
Old 09-05-2015, 06:35 AM
  #97  
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Yes love the glow engines, have over a 150 of them, so not going anywhere but to find s little cheaper way to run them, still listening!
Old 09-05-2015, 06:42 AM
  #98  
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The 50/50 blend is just my anecdotal experience with homebrew fuel - no research. But the owner of S&W once came to our club to give a presentation on fuel. I recall that he recommended total oil content of 2% castor and 18% synthetic. He thought this was a good compromise that would work well in most engines and would give the high-temperature benefits of castor. I don't know if it was just his opinion or he had some research to back it up.

I do not have problems with gummed up engines using the 50/50 blend. Some of my engines sit for a year or two without use. And I don't have problems with staining. I don't know why others have different results. Maybe all castors are not the same?

Originally Posted by Bambook7
JPmacG -

Thanks about the prices of castor and synthetic oil, I thought it was the other way around..

So using castor oil & synthetic oil in the blend let you enjoy benefits of both types, the question is the the proportions of those two in the mix.
I use mainly abc engines (Rossi, mvvs, sc) and for them I use Morgan Omega fuel 5%, which contains 17% oil, from which 30% castor and 70% synthetic.
That gives you 5.1% castor & 11.9% synthetic (out of total).
I add the amount of castor oil (of the quality Klotz Bennol) that gives me 6% of castor in the blend, and all my engines are happy with that for years now.

BUT, after reading this thread, my conclusion is that, first: maybe I use too much oil in my blend, and second: I should swap the proportions of castor & synthetic in my blend, meaning:
Maybe the blend should contain something like: 5% nitro. castor: between 8-10%, synthetic: 6-4% (14% lube on total), 81% methanol.

The thing is: is 4 to 6% of synthetic is enough to prevent the gumming phenomena in the engine?
Or maybe I should say: what's the minimum percentage of synthetic out of the total lube to prevent the gumming phenomena in the engine?
If one knows the answer to this, then no matter the amount of lube one uses in the blend (as long as it's above the engine minimum,off course ) - one just have to keep the right proportion inside lube blend..

So, did someone make some research\experiments about this proportion and have some insights regarding it?

Thanks!
Old 09-05-2015, 06:49 AM
  #99  
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I have to agree with Sport Pilot. I rarely burn a plug, and if I do, it is because the compression is too high, and needs a shim. The motors that run well on low or no nitro, generally have a higher compression than some others. Some manufacturers just have more shims in to give lower compression to start with, and be safer. I still prefer glow, as gas is fairly expensive here because of taxes, often close to $6 for regular, a gallon. Methanol is about the same, or maybe $11 if bought at a paint store with a big markup. Oil is the main cost, well nitro too. I would consider using gas if I could find a container that does not stink, but my planes are often .25 or even .049 and do not seem to use much fuel, and even the .46 and .91 I seldom use much fuel. I like to Keep It Simple. I have been buying my fuel from the Toledo show for $14 a US gallon (expensive US dollars) and might go through a gallon a year. As for mess, I use exhaust extensions, and still clean it up, mostly from the tail. I think if I had to change, maybe the leckies, but it would be a sad day. The receiver pack still needs to be charged which I find cumbersome, and a lipo pack is fresh for each flight. 'That is just me, maybe, but I can change if I have to, I guess.'
Old 09-05-2015, 08:18 AM
  #100  
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If they had a fuel cell instead of batteries I would change to electric, maybe.

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